Why don't we get more points for pedigree books within the registry?

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any topics using the search function. So...Pedigree books should get some kind of a point advantage. As a result, a set that is comprised of some or all pedigree books would also get an advantage. In most cases, pedigree books are the rarest of any book. Many times only a few..or sometimes even only one...may exist of each copy, in a specific grade. Often, they are shining examples of a particular book, even in lower grades. They are generally bought and sold at a premium because of the pedigree, general quality and rarity. I would agree that some pedigrees may be more desirable than others but for simplicity sake, could all pedigree books get a percentage point bump?

 

BEGIN

 

Signature series books get an advantage. (Why, I'm not quite sure.) A pedigree book, I would assume, would be more deserving of a point bump as it is likely even more scarce than a book manufactured in 1963 and signed by Stan Lee in 2012.

 

END

[telerites]

There have been a few threads about it.

 

Why don't Pedigrees get a premium in the Registry points system?

 

 

This talks about PQ point bumps but later in the thread goes into ped points and some reasons are offered why not to.

 

Should page quality be awarded points in the registry?

 

This is from an Ask CGC post

 

Pedigree books should be awarded just as many points as Signature Series books?

 

 

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

In reference to all of this on the Registry, the primary issue/concern that we have is the method by which the point values that would be assigned. Under our current system, there is no way to distinguish between the different pedigrees on the Registry, so we would only be able to give a Pedigree book a "score bump" that would have to be a universal percentage regardless of the pedigree itself. This is problematic as some pedigrees are more desirable and rare than others, so those pedigrees would not be accurately represented. Overall we feel it is best not to apply a pedigree-based change to the site at this time as it would not be an accurate representation for all the books that could possibly be entered. In addition, based upon the discussion above, not every collector is concerned with pedigrees, so this change may also alienate those customers and they may decide not to use the registry as a result.

 

So this is a quote from Gemma on 10/24/2008 explaining the reasoning behind not offering a "premium" for pedigree books. While I see the point, I think things have changed since then. I would reference restored books and qualified books. Both of these are given reduced points in the registry, but the point reduction is not based on the degree of restoration or the amount of the book that is missing, in the case of a qualified book. A slight resto gets the same points as a extensive resto and it doesn't matter if it is professional or amateur. Similarly, as a qualified with a clipped coupon that does not affect the story gets the same point reduction as a book that is missing 4 pages, is incomplete and the story is affected.

 

So, if one pedigree is more desirable than another, those who have a less desirable pedigree (equate to a amateur resto) will be benefit more than those with a more desirable pedigree (equate to a professional resto), but at least they will gain something from owning a pedigree.

 

If that comparison doesn't work for you, then how about SS books? They get more points regardless of the book, the rarity or who signed them. A book signed by Stan Lee is given the same point bump as a book signed by the actor who played a character in the movie that was based loosely on the comic book series. Does that really make sense? I personally don't care for SS books (I think the signature on the front defaces the art) and think the point bump they get is much more controversial than asking for one for a pedigree book.

 

From reading the past threads on the subject, I know people have mixed feelings on the value of a pedigree. But, I think the fact that pedigrees, regardless of the lineage, generally command a premium could not be argued against effectively. I would just like to see pedigree books given the attention and value they deserve. That being said, I believe the complexity and difficult that would result from making such a monumental change deters CGC from moving forward.

[Green]

Good points.

[Icculus308win]

Very good points indeed well explicated rebuttal post if you will. (thumbs u

Imho.....SS score bumping universally happened => Pedigree score bumping universally should happen too - in some simple form, or a fashion like you noted.

 

(But SS made/makes CGC money and Pedigreed books don't nor do I think can be lucrative. A slight speed bump for gaining plausible momentum. )

 

But if it did actually happen, I'd happily give Matt money to buy his Pedigree book, to learn more about all the pedigrees designated by their universal score bumps.

?

[HarveySwick]

Very good points!!

 

I own a few pedigrees and always wondered why it didn't have extra points for them. I feel like it's a on CGC's part with the explanation provided. Really, alienate people?? I feel a little frustrated since I'm not really a SS guy, but there will always be sets higher than me simply because of a signature. Maybe some people don't want a signature on a book but DO love the history behind pedigrees. There absolutely should be additional points. Just treat every pedigree the same like every signature is the same.

 

And PQ should be awarded different points. People pay a premium for White Pages in many instances and should be awarded additional points for it. Not to mention they are (generally) nicer looking books than other books with the same grade and lesser PQ.

[Marty Mann]

Awhile back I requested that "Park Avenue Collection" be noted on my

original owner newsstand comics when they were graded...not to try

and increase their value, but in looking forward, someday my comics

will be sold, and I just felt it might be of interest to the buyer.

As my 70 year old collection is not of high grade and quantity I was told

they would be unable to note it on the label.

 

mm

[southerncross]

Very good points!!

 

I own a few pedigrees and always wondered why it didn't have extra points for them. I feel like it's a on CGC's part with the explanation provided. Really, alienate people?? I feel a little frustrated since I'm not really a SS guy, but there will always be sets higher than me simply because of a signature. Maybe some people don't want a signature on a book but DO love the history behind pedigrees. There absolutely should be additional points. Just treat every pedigree the same like every signature is the same.

 

And PQ should be awarded different points. People pay a premium for White Pages in many instances and should be awarded additional points for it. Not to mention they are (generally) nicer looking books than other books with the same grade and lesser PQ.

I know this is a old thread but I just come across it.

You are spot on Harvey with your post.

But on the other hand I love the fact no extra points are given.

Most Silver age collectors don't seek out the peds

So a collector such as myself who is putting together a ped run of Sub-mariner issues from Tales to Astonish I have little competition and I don't pay a premium.

Over the years I would go to Metro and they will list 2 identical books CGC with same PQ and grade and have the same price. But one is a pedigree. Guess which one I will buy to get more bang for my buck (thumbs u

[MatterEaterLad]

Pedigrees should get a bump. If a Stan Lee SS warrants a bump, then it only makes sense. And I have a bunch of Silver Age FFs, all peds, and I've had to pay higher for each and every one. That should be worth something in the registry.

[HarveySwick]

PEDIGREES!!

[MatterEaterLad]

PEDIGREES!!

 

YES!

[Sam I am]

PEDIGREES!!

 

YES!

 

Upvote from me as well. Maybe a 10-15% point premium would be fair?

[Junkdrawer]

If you got a Mile High 9.2 whatever and you got your Uncle Harry's identical 9.2, both atop the Cgc census, well why is Edgar's better than Harry's?

[MatterEaterLad]

If you got a Mile High 9.2 whatever and you got your Uncle Harry's identical 9.2, both atop the Cgc census, well why is Edgar's better than Harry's?

 

Peds aren't just pedigrees because of provenance but because they're judged to be superior in some way, usually paper quality, gloss, etc. This of course opens the debate about some pedigrees being better than others, but still, if CGC is going to declare a pedigree, it should have some added value in the registry.

 

 

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

Yes. The majority of a pedigree must be high grade to qualify. Therefore, the pedigree is inherently of better quality overall. So, in most cases, you are buying the best of the best.

[N/A]

 

No.

[wardevil0]

Yes. The majority of a pedigree must be high grade to qualify. Therefore, the pedigree is inherently of better quality overall. So, in most cases, you are buying the best of the best.

 

It's not necessarily that those books are the best of the best. In many cases, one of the identifying features is a mark or name written on the cover. As I understand it, and it varies, to be a pedigree the collection has to be original owner, with near-compelte runs, and a verifiable list of issues. There are variations, as there are pedigrees that CGC doesn't recognize. Most pedigrees are Golden Age, but some newer are starting to be acknowledged by some, such as the Rocky Mountain and Golden Gate.

 

Descriptions of pedigree collections

 

The most important aspect to pedigrees is the their provenance. You know where those books fit in the overall history of comics, and the world in general. The Okajima Pedigree, for example (quoted from the above link):

 

After the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December of 1941, the knee-jerk reaction of the U.S. Government was to deport all Japanese Nationals residing in the States, and then round up all U.S./Japanese citizens and place them in internment camps. It was at one of these interment camps that a young Japanese/American girl used the four color world of comics as a means to escape her prison surroundings.

 

The average grade of an Okajima is 8.0, but has nice page quality, and an amazing backstory.

[HarveySwick]

 

I've always heard about the Okajima Collection, but never knew the backstory. Thanks for posting that.

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

 

No.

 

Man...you have some serious issues. Your argument holds absolutely no merit. Here are the facts. In order to be recognized as a pedigree by CGC...key words here BY CGC... I'm not concerned about the random so called "pedigree's"...only those recognized by CGC which would relate to the registry. Mile High II's were never a pedigree...only noted on CGC labels for a short time.

 

Pedigree status is acknowledged by CGC based on a combination of the following criteria:

 

The collection must be original owner. This means that the books must have been bought off the newsstand as they came out. For example, a collector cannot buy a high-grade run of 1940s comics from various sources and expect it to be considered a pedigree. The original owner need not currently own the comics for the collection to be considered for pedigree status.

 

The collection must be of vintage material. This means that a large collection consisting of comics from the 1970s to present cannot be considered a pedigree. In fact, until the sale of some key White Mountain books in a Sotheby’s auction in the early 1990s, Silver Age comics were not accepted as pedigree collections. Comic books from 1966 and after are relatively common in high grade compared to earlier issues. This occurred as a direct result of a tremendous explosion in the number of collectors in fandom in the mid-1960s.Collections that are primarily from 1966 and after must have average grades of at least 9.4 to be considered a pedigree.

 

The collection must consist of a considerable number of comics. Most pedigree collections consist of at least 1,000 books and some number over 10,000 comics. The collections that consist of fewer books, such as the Allentown and Denver collections, must include extremely rare, important, and/or key material.

 

The collection must be high-grade. Comics from the Silver Age in general would have to be 9.2 and higher, and a collection of exclusive Silver Age material must have an average grade of 9.4.Golden Age comics would have to be high-grade as well. For example, the Lost Valley collection consisted of many golden age books from before 1941 that were technically mid-grade, but were almost across the board the highest graded copy for that book. Page quality must be nice as well

 

So...why doesn't a collection of such material deserve a few extra points.Unless, of course, you feel 9.4 is too lowly a grade. And... don't give me the "That would kill competition" bull . SS series get extra points and that didn't kill competition. Why people get extra for art defaced with a giant signature is beyond me...but that is for another conversation.

[Supa-Bad-Mofo]

Yes. The majority of a pedigree must be high grade to qualify. Therefore, the pedigree is inherently of better quality overall. So, in most cases, you are buying the best of the best.

 

It's not necessarily that those books are the best of the best. In many cases, one of the identifying features is a mark or name written on the cover. As I understand it, and it varies, to be a pedigree the collection has to be original owner, with near-compelte runs, and a verifiable list of issues. There are variations, as there are pedigrees that CGC doesn't recognize. Most pedigrees are Golden Age, but some newer are starting to be acknowledged by some, such as the Rocky Mountain and Golden Gate.

 

Descriptions of pedigree collections

 

The most important aspect to pedigrees is the their provenance. You know where those books fit in the overall history of comics, and the world in general. The Okajima Pedigree, for example (quoted from the above link):

 

After the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December of 1941, the knee-jerk reaction of the U.S. Government was to deport all Japanese Nationals residing in the States, and then round up all U.S./Japanese citizens and place them in internment camps. It was at one of these interment camps that a young Japanese/American girl used the four color world of comics as a means to escape her prison surroundings.

 

The average grade of an Okajima is 8.0, but has nice page quality, and an amazing backstory.

 

I would guess that many of the books in the collection you reference here are the best of the best. Although they may not be super high grade, some are likely top of census...or very close. Making them the best of the best. Four color's in 8.0 aren't anything to be ashamed of.

 

According to CGC ".Golden Age comics would have to be high-grade as well." Here is their example: "The Lost Valley collection consisted of many golden age books from before 1941 that were technically mid-grade, but were almost across the board the highest graded copy for that book. Page quality must be nice as well."

 

So, I must stand with my "best of the best" statement. Maybe not always highest graded, but definitely some of the nicest...