Most significant X-Men

[RockMyAmadeus]

There was a time, for a while, that Spidey #129 was worth more than Hulk #181.

 

True story.

 

Yep.

 

And Punisher had THREE monthly comic titles!

 

Punisher ROCKED in the 80s. I wanted a #129 way more than a #181 when I was a kid.

 

I know the conversation was originally about who was the most significant X-Man, but if we really want to get into who was the most significant MARVEL character from 1987-1990-ish, it has to be Punisher.

 

There was a definite X-Men backlash in those years, precisely because of the things that made it so great in the earlier years: plot threads that were never, ever resolved, odd dialogue, unintelligible plots. I mean, can anyone really explain what happened during the Siege Perilous storyline? It was a mess, and it really took Jim Lee on the title to bring Claremont back to his senses. As a result, new sales suffered, back issue sales suffered, individual characters suffered...it seems paradoxical, what with all the spinoffs, but the core book was a mess, from #228 to about #268.

 

During the same period, it was Punisher, Punisher, Punisher! The fans simply could not get enough.

[Prince Namor]

There was a time, for a while, that Spidey #129 was worth more than Hulk #181.

 

True story.

 

Yep.

 

And Punisher had THREE monthly comic titles!

 

Punisher ROCKED in the 80s. I wanted a #129 way more than a #181 when I was a kid.

 

You remember this?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

If he was THAT big of deal, why wouldn't Marvel just give him his own regular series?

 

Could have just been a trend thing, perhaps? After all Vision/Scarlett Witch, Nightcrawler, Hawkeye, etc, etc had their own "limited series" books which seemed to be all the rage during that timeframe before 1988 - perhaps the idea behind ongoing series' wasn't fully realized at that time?

 

Could have been a big step to take an established character in a title and give him a second title - which at this point - had only been reserved for the likes of Cap, Iron Man and Spidey.

 

I mean, they gave Wolvie his own series and MCP in 1988 - so there is definitely reason to think he hit the stratosphere at that time, but I think his popularity was still very strong before then. The explanation for underuse could simply be that editors didn't have the right ideas in place to take advantage of that popularity pre-88.

 

MCP was NOT a Wolverine title...initially.

 

He was featured in the first 10 issues, of course to get the title off the ground, but then he disappears until issue #38, at which point it does indeed become a Wolverine title.

 

And I don't think I agree with your argument about the editors not understanding how to take full advantage of a character...Cloak & Dagger, after all...but I do grant that it is a fair argument.

 

I don't think they didn't know how to take advantage, but perhaps there were some other more... tangible reasons to why he didn't get his title. Perhaps there was no room in the budget. Maybe paper cost skyrocketed. Maybe they had big plans for him in X-Men and they didn't want to split the readership. I don't have the answer, but I have to believe that somewhere in the equation, the human element plays a part to why he got a series in 1988, but maybe not 1987.

 

Punisher War Journal, the Punisher's SECOND series began the same month as Wolverine's first....

 

I have a love affair with PWJ #1 and #6. I CANNOT pass up buying a copy if they are at $2 or less. I simply cannot. I must have 50 copies of #1, and same with #6. When I first started collecting PWJ #1 was a $15 book. $15 was a lot of money to a high school senior in 1990!

 

Someday, I'll send my non-existent children to college with those.

 

And by that, I'll mean they'll be using them as book covers to protect their $12,928.53 texbooks.

[Prince Namor]

I remember reading a comic magazine interview with Claremont on the mid eighties where he commented directly about the popularity of Wolverine. He commented that He was concerned with the possibility of overexposing Wolverine risked undermining the character.

 

Maybe this was why he hadn't been overused previous to this, the interview made it sound like Claremont had been trying to fight the pressure from Marvel to feature him more.

 

 

This is how I saw it too.

 

By the time Wolverine got his own regular series Claremont had lost the good fight with the powers at be at Marvel in terms of keeping his X-universe all tied to himself. I know he started out writing the wolverine ongoing but I don't think it lasted very long. Corporate Marvel knew the key to sales was making Wolverine as big as Spider-Man.

 

Of course back in 83' Wolverine was the number one mutant in the number one book for fans. If anything Claremont tried to downplay his role knowing how popular he had become.

 

If anyone has any actual evidence that demonstrates that Wolverine was "the number one mutant" (and let's not even talk about New Teen Titans, which gave the X-Men a SERIOUS run for their money in the early 80's), by all means, PLEASE share that.

 

A reader poll printed in a magazine, an article from the time posted, any actual DATA which demonstrates this position. It would be much preferable to a lot of "that's how I remember it" statements, especially from childhood memories, which are most unscientific.

 

I would be most interested them!

The magazine interview I was referring to is fact but I haven't had the magazine for many years.

If I can track down which magazine it was then I'll post it here.

 

Please do, I would be very interested in reading it.

I've been trying to google a clue as to the identity of the magazine that I was referring to but so far it's proven to be a needle in a haystack. I don't remember the title of the magazine or even if it was a US or UK publication. I think it may have been more late Eighties than mid Eighties now though so probably wouldn't hold as much sway over this discussion.

 

Having been a comic reader through the Eighties, my memories are that Wolverine was the most popular X Man easily at the beginning of the Eighties but nowhere near at the same levels as later on. He gained popularity slowly but was boosted by the mini series and finally took off to real levels of popularity and over exposure after his ongoing was launched.

 

My take on the interview that I read (bearing in mind that it was a long time ago and my memory of it isn't 100% but the general gist of it should be fairly accurate) was that Claremont acknowledged that Wolverine was the key character but that the overexposing him would undermine what made him popular. Unfortunately I can't substantiate this currently.

 

That's kinda how I remember it...

[Prince Namor]

If he was THAT big of deal, why wouldn't Marvel just give him his own regular series?

 

Could have just been a trend thing, perhaps? After all Vision/Scarlett Witch, Nightcrawler, Hawkeye, etc, etc had their own "limited series" books which seemed to be all the rage during that timeframe before 1988 - perhaps the idea behind ongoing series' wasn't fully realized at that time?

 

Could have been a big step to take an established character in a title and give him a second title - which at this point - had only been reserved for the likes of Cap, Iron Man and Spidey.

 

I mean, they gave Wolvie his own series and MCP in 1988 - so there is definitely reason to think he hit the stratosphere at that time, but I think his popularity was still very strong before then. The explanation for underuse could simply be that editors didn't have the right ideas in place to take advantage of that popularity pre-88.

 

MCP was NOT a Wolverine title...initially.

 

He was featured in the first 10 issues, of course to get the title off the ground, but then he disappears until issue #38, at which point it does indeed become a Wolverine title.

 

And I don't think I agree with your argument about the editors not understanding how to take full advantage of a character...Cloak & Dagger, after all...but I do grant that it is a fair argument.

 

I don't think they didn't know how to take advantage, but perhaps there were some other more... tangible reasons to why he didn't get his title. Perhaps there was no room in the budget. Maybe paper cost skyrocketed. Maybe they had big plans for him in X-Men and they didn't want to split the readership. I don't have the answer, but I have to believe that somewhere in the equation, the human element plays a part to why he got a series in 1988, but maybe not 1987.

 

Punisher War Journal, the Punisher's SECOND series began the same month as Wolverine's first....

 

I have a love affair with PWJ #1 and #6. I CANNOT pass up buying a copy if they are at $2 or less. I simply cannot. I must have 50 copies of #1, and same with #6. When I first started collecting PWJ #1 was a $15 book. $15 was a lot of money to a high school senior in 1990!

 

Someday, I'll send my non-existent children to college with those.

 

And by that, I'll mean they'll be using them as book covers to protect their $12,928.53 texbooks.

 

[Prince Namor]

Wow, I forgot about.... "The Punisher Magazine" ran 16 issues, from November 1989 to September 1990, and "The Punisher Armory" went for ten issues beginning in 1990.

 

Sheesh.

[gaz973]

....... and I'm completely in the camp of those who appreciate Claremonts work on Magneto. He was transformed into just another two dimensional bad guy to the most intriguing and best motivated hero/villains in comic history. I think he may actually be my favourite X Man (not sure what that says about me).

 

I very much enjoyed the Savage Land story with Rogue and Magneto in # 274 & 275 and then I hated it when Lobdell regressed Magneto back to "standard bad guy" during Fatal Attractions with very little reason or explanation. There have been some great Magneto stories since then and some awful ones which have really highlighted an inconsistency between different writers portrayals of the character but they have been reasonably consistent with him for a while now.

 

Haven't checked out the new Magneto series that's just been released but I'm looking forward to catching up with it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Wow, I forgot about.... "The Punisher Magazine" ran 16 issues, from November 1989 to September 1990, and "The Punisher Armory" went for ten issues beginning in 1990.

 

Sheesh.

 

Don't forget:

 

Punisher 2099

The Punisher: Assassin's Guild (1988)

The Punisher: Intruder (1989)

The Punisher: Return to Big Nothing (1989)

The Punisher: Kingdom Gone (August 1990)

The Punisher: Blood on the Moors (December 1991)

Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher: Hearts of Darkness (December 1991)

Black Widow/Punisher: Spinning Doomsday's Web (December 1992)

Spider-Man/The Punisher/Sabretooth: Designer Genes

The Punisher Back to School Special

The Punisher: No Escape (1990)

Punisher: The Prize (1990)

The Punisher Movie Special (June 1990)

Punisher Bloodlines (1991)

Punisher: Die Hard in the Big Easy (1992)

The Punisher: G-Force

The Punisher vs. Archie

Marvel Tales (#209-221)

Punisher P.O.V. #1-4 (May – August 1991)

The Punisher: Summer Special #1-4 (1991 – 1994)

The Punisher: Back to School Special #1-3 (1992 – 1994)

The Punisher/Captain America: Blood and Glory #1-3 (October – December 1992)

The Punisher: Holiday Special #1-3 (1993 – 1995)

The Punisher: The Ghosts of Innocents #1-2 (January – March 1993)

The Punisher: The Origin of Microchip #1-2 (July – August 1993)

Wolverine/Punisher: Damaging Evidence #1-3

 

...and about a quadzillion guest appearances across the Marvel U, including, but not limited to:

 

Amazing Spiderman

Spectacular Spiderman

Web of Spiderman

Incredible Hulk

Power Pack (yes, Power Pack)

New Warriors

Ghost Rider

Guardians of the Galaxy (yes, GOTG.)

Cloak and Dagger

Moon Knight

Strange Tales

 

And then there was:

 

Punisher West Coast

The Amazing Punisher

The Spectacular Punisher

The Non-Mutant Misadventures of the Punisher

Alf & Punisher Team-Up

Transformers Meets the Punisher

Betty & Veronica Date The Punisher

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because, after all, Marvel was worried about overexposure...

 

[gaz973]

Because, after all, Marvel was worried about overexposure...

 

I didn't say that Marvel was concerned with overexposure, I said that Claremont was concerned with overexposure.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Because, after all, Marvel was worried about overexposure...

 

I didn't say that Marvel was concerned with overexposure, I said that Claremont was concerned with overexposure.

 

I wasn't replying specifically to you, and I know Claremont was concerned about overexposure...but like I said before, the characters belonged to Marvel, not Claremont, a fact which was brought home to him in a big way when Shooter forced them to kill Phoenix.

 

 

 

[gaz973]

Two of the Punishers most gratuitous and pointless appearances were in Namor and Quasar. I always used to enjoy the Punishers appearances alongside other Marvel characters as they highlighted the contrast between the traditional characters and a complete vigilante attitude. When the guest appearances got as forced as they did though, even I had to

[gaz973]

Because, after all, Marvel was worried about overexposure...

 

I didn't say that Marvel was concerned with overexposure, I said that Claremont was concerned with overexposure.

 

I wasn't replying specifically to you, and I know Claremont was concerned about overexposure...but like I said before, the characters belonged to Marvel, not Claremont, a fact which was brought home to him in a big way when Shooter forced them to kill Phoenix.

 

 

Fair enough, I thought you were replying to my comments as I'd been mentioning overexposure.

[kav]

Remember in 'Who Wants to be a Superhero?' when Stan told Iron Enforcer 'heroes don't kill people'...I wanted him to shout PUNISHER! PUNISHER! PUNISHER!

he didn't though

[fastballspecial]

Im an old 80s X-men fan.

 

Its Peter and Katya(Kitty). Sorry being a teenager at the time I loved the relationship they had or should have had depending on how you look at it.

(FU Secret Wars )

 

 

 

+1

 

That whole thing was BS on Peter's part. And I think Wolverine called him out on that several times and Kitty marrying Caliban really made Peter look like an assclown. Whether or not it was planned that way, it had a great "real life" effect on the story - that added some great depth to those two characters. Ahhh, I miss those stories...

 

We are a small minority, but vocal . As mentioned the Juggy story in the bar was great and was also I think the 1st Selene app as well wasn't it? Peter/Kitty sitting on the hill talking about that Secret War incident together.

 

Neither character has ever been the same since. I think.

[kav]

What's the most ridiculous, puny and stupid character ever conceived? I vote Woodgod.

[delekkerste]

It very much was an "X-Men" thing, as opposed to a "Wolverine" thing. Marvel Team Up Annual #1, Power Man & Iron Fist #57, Rom #17-18, What If #27, Bizarre Adventures #27, Avengers Annual #10, all X-MEN appearances, as opposed to spotlighting any single character. Arguments that Wolverine was a breakout star by or at X-Men #133 are unsupportable.

 

Arguments like this don't prove anything. Remember, back then things were done in continuity. Wolverine was part of a team, so he couldn't simultaneously be in 5 crossovers at one time on a solo basis! When Wolverine goes off to Japan for his mini-series, guess what? He disappears from Uncanny X-Men for several issues, which is why he's surprised at the beginning of #172 to learn that Rogue is now part of the team not a foe. The short answer is that it was simply easier to write in all of the X-Men into crossovers than just Wolverine. And why not get more bang for the buck with the whole team anyway? But, make no mistake - Wolverine was *the* driving factor that caused the title to soar to the top of the popularity heap in 1982-83.

 

Shooter only made Claremont/Byrne kill Phoenix because the latter had her take billions of lives as Dark Phoenix. To think that Claremont didn't have control over Wolverine because of that isolated example doesn't hold any water.

 

 

As you point out...Dazzler got her own book. New Mutants got their own book. Alpha Flight, Power Pack, Avengers West Coast (Mini AND regular), X-Factor, Cloak & Dagger...yes, CLOAK AND DAGGER...Punisher...ALF...the New Universe...Star Comics....all of these characters got their regular series before Wolverine got his own. Spidey was in FOUR titles, three new and one reprint. Beast, Nightcrawler, Magik, Longshot, Punisher, Hercules (TWICE), Vision and the Scarlet Witch (TWICE) all had minis.

 

Dazzler got her own book to cash in on the disco craze (too late as it turned out). She, and numerous others of the examples you mentioned, weren't regulars in any ongoing title (you forgot The Falcon and Jack of Hearts), so it made sense that they were showcased separately. But, you neglect the fact that, even with Wolverine as the star of UXM, his mini-series outsold all of the others you mentioned. Just because Hercules got a mini-series doesn't mean he was anywhere near Wolverine's level. And, the fact that Wolverine didn't get his regular series until 1988 doesn't mean jack squat - he was getting plenty of exposure before then in UXM, the various mini-series (his solo, KP & W, X-Men vs. Micronauts, Avengers vs. X-Men, FF vs. X-Men, SPM vs. Wolverine one-shot, etc.), Classic X-Men, etc. To say that his popularity broke out in 1988 totally confuses cause and effect. His ongoing title in 1988 was the effect - the cause was that he had already been Marvel's most popular character for most of the past 6 years.

[RockMyAmadeus]

[RockMyAmadeus]

And for something totally unrelated, the short haired lady in this video is my current fascination...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I could watch her reading the phone book.