Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[fantastic_four]

Stress lines are also relatively minor defects for eye appeal. Do you count them when you grade a book? How many levels per stress mark? A tiny stress line is arguably less of an impact to a book's appearance than a 1/16th shrinkage of the covers, but that can be enough to knock an otherwise 9.8 down to a 9.6 or 9.4. Same with slightly fuzzy corners or a tiny staple tear. So why downgrade markedly for one small defect (stress or corners) while giving others (like excessive shrinkage) a relative pass?

 

Shrinkage is more like miswrap to my eyes--they're directly comparable, except that 1/8" of miswrap is usually far more aesthetically distracting because it directly interferes with the cover art. Page pokethrough doesn't affect the art at all and isn't as noticable--and as I've noted multiple times, although I've always avoided it when possible, I have not once heard people in this forum complain about how CGC grades this defect before RSR and shrinkage linked it to pressing, yet people have been repeatedly complaining about how CGC doesn't downgrade for miswrap for the last decade. The reason for that is clear--miswrap is far more noticable and distracting.

 

But I don't disagree with having 1/16" shrinkage knock a 9.8 down to a 9.6 like a spine stress would. But I also don't like the idea of giving production defects a partial pass, either, so it's a controversial topic.

[fantastic_four]

[The purpose of grading should have nothing whatsoever with disincentivizing anything--grading is about the aesthetic appeal and functional use of the comic. Consensus can't be reached with that kind of motive behind recommended defect downgrades.

Right, and books with shrunken covers look like absolute trash. I'd take a book with a subscription crease over a book with a shrunken cover. How do subscription-creased books get graded?

 

This is a fine example of the type of hyperbole pervading the thread that makes it difficult if not impossible to reach a rational consensus here on what CGC should change related to grading shrinkage.

 

But on a positive note, it's good to see that you now only view shrinkage as comparable to a subscription crease and that it only makes a book "absolute trash" as opposed to you being ready to kill yourself over the tragedy of this damage.

[Davenport]

Some may find this commentary I wrote on the topic back in 2006 informative:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/Home/4/1/73/1023?articleID=52863

 

At this point it should be blatantly obvious a definition that stood for decades was re-written because CGC and Gemstone entered into a marketing partnership.

 

That a huge debate happened afterward, on Scoop, here and elsewhere, makes it obvious it wasn't due to any consumer or market consensus.

 

And with the crack-out-game importation from coins, it should be obvious now (it wasn't back then) why that definition change was both required and inevitable.

 

In the end, sadly, all the shock, outrage, and volumes of debate rhetoric was so much wind. Probably pre-expected and why the years slow roll-out. Get marketers used to the paydays first, while letting the masses discover ' the How' from slowly connecting-the-dots on their own. When the outrage and yelling hits, too late.

 

[Bomber-Bob]

Some may find this commentary I wrote on the topic back in 2006 informative:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/Home/4/1/73/1023?articleID=52863

 

At this point it should be blatantly obvious a definition that stood for decades was re-written because CGC and Gemstone entered into a marketing partnership.

 

That a huge debate happened afterward, on Scoop, here and elsewhere, makes it obvious it wasn't due to any consumer or market consensus.

 

And with the crack-out-game importation from coins, it should be obvious now (it wasn't back then) why that definition change was both required and inevitable.

 

In the end, sadly, all the shock, outrage, and volumes of debate rhetoric was so much wind. Probably pre-expected and why the years slow roll-out. Get marketers used to the paydays first, while letting the masses discover ' the How' from slowly connecting-the-dots on their own. When the outrage and yelling hits, too late.

 

In other words, we have all been played. The books and the collectors have been both been manipulated. Sad.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Some may find this commentary I wrote on the topic back in 2006 informative:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/Home/4/1/73/1023?articleID=52863

 

At this point it should be blatantly obvious a definition that stood for decades was re-written because CGC and Gemstone entered into a marketing partnership.

 

That a huge debate happened afterward, on Scoop, here and elsewhere, makes it obvious it wasn't due to any consumer or market consensus.

 

And with the crack-out-game importation from coins, it should be obvious now (it wasn't back then) why that definition change was both required and inevitable.

 

In the end, sadly, all the shock, outrage, and volumes of debate rhetoric was so much wind. Probably pre-expected and why the years slow roll-out. Get marketers used to the paydays first, while letting the masses discover ' the How' from slowly connecting-the-dots on their own. When the outrage and yelling hits, too late.

 

Just don't be left holding the slabs when the music stops.

[comicwiz]

Some may find this commentary I wrote on the topic back in 2006 informative:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/Home/4/1/73/1023?articleID=52863

 

Succinct, lucid analysis and commentary Mark. Thanks for sharing.

 

The section on responses to Gemstones solicitation was particularly interesting.

 

Number 8 in the footnote section really jumped out at me. For context, it leads up from the assertion that "restoration includes anything that is traceable"

 

Mr. Nelson also added that the "line between what is considered restoration and what is not is simply what can be detected." Readers should challenge Mr. Nelson to provide one example from a restoration professional or organization that adopts this type of logic in determining what constitutes restoration.

 

If this thread isn't a call to that challenge, I don't know what is.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Some may find this commentary I wrote on the topic back in 2006 informative:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/Home/4/1/73/1023?articleID=52863

 

At this point it should be blatantly obvious a definition that stood for decades was re-written because CGC and Gemstone entered into a marketing partnership.

 

That a huge debate happened afterward, on Scoop, here and elsewhere, makes it obvious it wasn't due to any consumer or market consensus.

 

And with the crack-out-game importation from coins, it should be obvious now (it wasn't back then) why that definition change was both required and inevitable.

 

In the end, sadly, all the shock, outrage, and volumes of debate rhetoric was so much wind. Probably pre-expected and why the years slow roll-out. Get marketers used to the paydays first, while letting the masses discover ' the How' from slowly connecting-the-dots on their own. When the outrage and yelling hits, too late.

 

In other words, we have all been played. The books and the collectors have been both been manipulated. Sad.

I always hinted that what happened in the certified coins and baseball card markets a decade ago would happen in the certified comic book markets. I guess when their done with milking certified comics they will move on to conquer the certified action figures market and other certified collectible markets?

rinse, repeat

[gaz973]

Some may find this commentary I wrote on the topic back in 2006 informative:

 

http://scoop.diamondgalleries.com/Home/4/1/73/1023?articleID=52863

 

At this point it should be blatantly obvious a definition that stood for decades was re-written because CGC and Gemstone entered into a marketing partnership.

 

That a huge debate happened afterward, on Scoop, here and elsewhere, makes it obvious it wasn't due to any consumer or market consensus.

 

And with the crack-out-game importation from coins, it should be obvious now (it wasn't back then) why that definition change was both required and inevitable.

 

In the end, sadly, all the shock, outrage, and volumes of debate rhetoric was so much wind. Probably pre-expected and why the years slow roll-out. Get marketers used to the paydays first, while letting the masses discover ' the How' from slowly connecting-the-dots on their own. When the outrage and yelling hits, too late.

 

In other words, we have all been played. The books and the collectors have been both been manipulated. Sad.

I always hinted that what happened in the certified coins and baseball card markets a decade ago would happen in the certified comic book markets. I guess when their done with milking certified comics they will move on to conquer the certified action figures market and other certified collectible markets?

rinse, repeat

They'll milk anything with metaphorical udders.

[Straw-Man]

i have nipples, greg; could you milk me?

[Davenport]

In other words, we have all been played. The books and the collectors have been both been manipulated. Sad.

This bugged me early on for quite some time, seemed illogical to the extreme (at the time): Two 2004 articles, CBG on ComicKeys/Dupcak and Forbes on James Halperin .

 

It made zero sense. Why all the investigative effort by CBG and CGC to spotlight an eBay boogeyman, be aware consumers or you might get bit, we're watching your back and peeling back the hidden layers... but not a single peep about the T-Rex standing in the corner?

 

Of course once the coin-factor influence is learned, that particular puzzle piece falls into place, it makes perfect sense. But at first blush, as a noob reading the Forbes article, you think: 'why in the world would they want a guy like that anywhere near the comics hobby, let alone be invited to invest in and partner with its professional grading company??'

 

 

 

 

 

 

[originalisbest]

Hmm, maybe I should order yet more foil for dav. Costco membership?

[Rip]

Some interesting thoughts, but some of the comments are getting a little off the deep end even for my tastes.

 

Anyway I had a good discussion with Susan Cicconi about the shrinking covers yesterday. If she has some time out of her ultra busy schedule she said she might make some comments in the thread.

[Silver Surfer]

Some interesting thoughts, but some of the comments are getting a little off the deep end even for my tastes.

 

Anyway I had a good discussion with Susan Cicconi about the shrinking covers yesterday. If she has some time out of her ultra busy schedule she said she might make some comments in the thread.

 

Would be cool to hear what Susan has to say.

[comicdonna]

Some interesting thoughts, but some of the comments are getting a little off the deep end even for my tastes.

 

Anyway I had a good discussion with Susan Cicconi about the shrinking covers yesterday. If she has some time out of her ultra busy schedule she said she might make some comments in the thread.

 

Would be cool to hear what Susan has to say.

+1

[Silver Surfer]

Hmm, maybe I should order yet more foil for dav. Costco membership?

 

Just curious, how do you feel about the latest example [Hulk #1], Original is best! Oh the irony [no pun intended] of it all.

[BEAUMONTS]

Some interesting thoughts, but some of the comments are getting a little off the deep end even for my tastes.

 

Anyway I had a good discussion with Susan Cicconi about the shrinking covers yesterday. If she has some time out of her ultra busy schedule she said she might make some comments in the thread.

 

That would be fantastic, independent opinion with one of the best in the biz (thumbs u

[Davenport]

Hmm, maybe I should order yet more foil for dav. Costco membership?

I seriously doubt they carry that much tinfoil at Costco. Unless you're suggesting that's where you stock up on blinders?

 

Anyway, at least I can link to my tinfoil-hat paranoid delusional source material: FTC.gov

 

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Hmm, maybe I should order yet more foil for dav. Costco membership?

I seriously doubt they carry that much tinfoil at Costco. Unless you're suggesting that's where you stock up on blinders?

 

Anyway, at least I can link to my tinfoil-hat paranoid delusional source material: FTC.gov

 

 

 

The FTC.....

[Bomber-Bob]

In other words, we have all been played. The books and the collectors have been both been manipulated. Sad.

Forbes on James Halperin .

 

Of course once the coin-factor influence is learned, that particular puzzle piece falls into place, it makes perfect sense. But at first blush, as a noob reading the Forbes article, you think: 'why in the world would they want a guy like that anywhere near the comics hobby, let alone be invited to invest in and partner with its professional grading company??'

 

Everyone reading this thread should read the article on Halperin. You will see how CGC is the same business model as the coin industry, same bag of tricks. Even the CGC registry is a coin trick to create competition among collectors and ultimately drive up prices. The stuff about intentional soft grading to boost the the crack out game is really annoying. We are being played.

[THE_BEYONDER]

In other words, we have all been played. The books and the collectors have been both been manipulated. Sad.

Forbes on James Halperin .

 

Of course once the coin-factor influence is learned, that particular puzzle piece falls into place, it makes perfect sense. But at first blush, as a noob reading the Forbes article, you think: 'why in the world would they want a guy like that anywhere near the comics hobby, let alone be invited to invest in and partner with its professional grading company??'

 

Everyone reading this thread should read the article on Halperin. You will see how CGC is the same business model as the coin industry, same bag of tricks. Even the CGC registry is a coin trick to create competition among collectors and ultimately drive up prices. The stuff about intentional soft grading to boost the the crack out game is really annoying. We are being played.

 

The apologists don't care. As long as the money train keeps chugging along....no one cares who the engineer is.