Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[Bomber-Bob]

 

RSR or shrinkage? What's the back cover look like?

 

That book was recently graded, 10/03/13. The book is from the Sparklecityauction.

Unfortunately, a lot of the books in the auction, mostly the same 117 series

looks Shave like.

Look at this DC Bronze in their auction.

PS This is not a reflection on Sparklecity, just their pressing service.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

 

I took a decade-long break from the hobby, returning last summer. Before that break, I rarely saw GA books with page peek-out. Fanned pages due to spine-roll, sure. But page peek out on books without spine roll? Seldom if ever.

 

What happened between 2002 and 2012? Pressing happened.

 

I believe a side by side comparison of, say, 100 old-label GA books with 100 GA books pressed in the last three years would be very telling. It think it will reveal noticeably more page peek out in the more-recently-slabbed GA books.

 

An interesting example of this phenomena is if you look at the Heritage archive. Take a particular issue of a book in mid to high grade and sort by date. Look at the books that were sold in 2002-2004 and compare to the books sold in the last few years. Definitely a higher prevalence of pages squished out in the more recent books. By no means an absolute rule as I'm sure there are some books that weren't pressed or only pressed once, but there is a trend for sure.

 

It undermines my confidence in the CGC brand to see this happening and watch them get higher and higher grades for books that are clearly taking damage. Personally, I'm having a hard time thinking these books are any better than a trimmed copy that has the right edge of the cover taken off. I know some folks will scream outrage about that statement but the end result is pretty similar. Personal preference, I guess.

I agree

 

Remember the Ewert scandal ?

 

CGC was unable to detect micro-trimming until the CGC Board did expose it.

 

When the fact was proved, CGC did the right thing then: they made the necessary changes to be able to detect micro-trimming, they banned Jason Ewert from submitting and a list of books that have been submitted by him was built.

 

Sure there were some micro-trimmed books that probably were undetected before that and are still in circulation but at least their spectacular action did stop that trend.

 

Because what was doing Jason Ewert ? He was playing with a flaw in CGC's control that allowed him to get higher grades in a blue label. He was destroying comics to make profit.

 

What are the Costanzas books if not a destruction of comics for an attempt to make profit ?

 

CGC had guts to ban Ewert from submitting, he was probably an important and lucrative submitter for them. But they did what was right in the long-term for their reputation.

 

What are they going to do now ?

 

There really is only 1 option....

 

Hire Jason Ewert to start trimming all those interior pages so they once again match up with the covers.

[ciorac]

Will the Steelers make the playoffs? No

Hope this helps

 

[batman_fan]

Will the Steelers make the playoffs? No

Hope this helps

 

 

Sometimes, the truth definitely hurts ...

[Davenport]

Remember the Ewert scandal ?

 

CGC was unable to detect micro-trimming until the CGC Board did expose it.

 

When the fact was proved, CGC did the right thing then: they made the necessary changes to be able to detect micro-trimming, they banned Jason Ewert from submitting and a list of books that have been submitted by him was built.

 

Sure there were some micro-trimmed books that probably were undetected before that and are still in circulation but at least their spectacular action did stop that trend.

 

Because what was doing Jason Ewert ? He was playing with a flaw in CGC's control that allowed him to get higher grades in a blue label. He was destroying comics to make profit.

 

What are the Costanzas books if not a destruction of comics for an attempt to make profit ?

 

CGC had guts to ban Ewert from submitting, he was probably an important and lucrative submitter for them. But they did what was right in the long-term for their reputation.

 

What are they going to do now ?

Microtrimming is not readily apparent within the slab. The misalignment of the page edges is apparent within the slab. Detection of that misalignment requires only eyesight.

 

Regardless of how the misalignment occurred, the bottom line question when comparing the second grading to the first is "does the removal of previous aesthetic defects outweigh the introduction of a new aesthetic defect?" The grader needs not have both versions of the book. The grader needs only to grade the book as it is. The collector, of whatever sort, will answer the question somewhere down the line.

 

I agree that the misaligned right edges should carry a certain weight in the final grade. I think almost everyone agrees with that. The rest of the discussion is a collection of trees within what we all see is a forest.

Detection from "only eyesight" is exactly how Ewert was finally busted.

The Abrams FF3 thread was in full-spin mode here, even more so than this thread, while at the same time Hammer/Dupcak was pointing out eBay Ewert-trims one after the other over on STL.

It was one of those, a Strange Tales 128, after a 'before' scan was eventually matched. Only when it was absolutely undeniable did the spin machine wind down and damage-control kicked in.

 

[batman_fan]

Remember the Ewert scandal ?

 

CGC was unable to detect micro-trimming until the CGC Board did expose it.

 

When the fact was proved, CGC did the right thing then: they made the necessary changes to be able to detect micro-trimming, they banned Jason Ewert from submitting and a list of books that have been submitted by him was built.

 

Sure there were some micro-trimmed books that probably were undetected before that and are still in circulation but at least their spectacular action did stop that trend.

 

Because what was doing Jason Ewert ? He was playing with a flaw in CGC's control that allowed him to get higher grades in a blue label. He was destroying comics to make profit.

 

What are the Costanzas books if not a destruction of comics for an attempt to make profit ?

 

CGC had guts to ban Ewert from submitting, he was probably an important and lucrative submitter for them. But they did what was right in the long-term for their reputation.

 

What are they going to do now ?

Microtrimming is not readily apparent within the slab. The misalignment of the page edges is apparent within the slab. Detection of that misalignment requires only eyesight.

 

Regardless of how the misalignment occurred, the bottom line question when comparing the second grading to the first is "does the removal of previous aesthetic defects outweigh the introduction of a new aesthetic defect?" The grader needs not have both versions of the book. The grader needs only to grade the book as it is. The collector, of whatever sort, will answer the question somewhere down the line.

 

I agree that the misaligned right edges should carry a certain weight in the final grade. I think almost everyone agrees with that. The rest of the discussion is a collection of trees within what we all see is a forest.

Detection from "only eyesight" is exactly how Ewert was finally busted.

The Abrams FF3 thread was in full-spin mode here, even more so than this thread, while at the same time Hammer/Dupcak was pointing out eBay Ewert-trims one after the other over on STL.

It was one of those, a Strange Tales 128, after a 'before' scan was eventually matched. Only when it was absolutely undeniable did the spin machine wind down and damage-control kicked in.

 

Spot on

[THE_BEYONDER]

If anyone but Matt/CCS did this to so many books, they would be crucified by CGC and the apologists. They would be the new Ewert.

[Straw-Man]

here's a pretty book

 

Pretty soon, people will start saying "Buy the label, not the book".

Kind of like "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

 

i have no idea if this book has been schaved, and frankly don't care, but as it's about a $200 book by guide, and is from a title that doesn't sell at guide, generally, i have to wonder why anyone would invest the money in mattie and cgc to press this pedestrian comic. my guess is that we're seeing this book in it's natural state. bob wondered who s'city used as their pressing service in his post on the hex book; no way s'city had this book pressed.

[batman_fan]

here's a pretty book

 

Pretty soon, people will start saying "Buy the label, not the book".

Kind of like "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

 

i have no idea if this book has been schaved, and frankly don't care, but as it's about a $200 book by guide, and is from a title that doesn't sell at guide, generally, i have to wonder why anyone would invest the money in mattie and cgc to press this pedestrian comic. my guess is that we're seeing this book in it's natural state. bob wondered who s'city used as their pressing service in his post on the hex book; no way s'city had this book pressed.

 

I wouldn't be too certain that the lower value indicates it hasn't seen some work. It all depends on your cost structure for doing the work. If you are paying Matt to do it maybe not. If you aye ding t in house, probably just about every raw book will get the treatment.

[Hepcat]

What a lot of us are trying to figure out is how and why a less attractive comic has received a noticeably higher grade from CGC. That just doesn't make sense.

 

 

Some of these books obviously had pressable defects - these defects were removed during the over-zealous pressing which also resulted in the shrunken covers.

 

As CGC treated the shrunken cover as a manufacturing defect which didn't affect the grade, they were left with a book with fewer defects than it had had previously - hence the grade bump on some of these books.

 

The mind boggles.

 

 

Hep, it turns out you are probably the wisest collector on these boards. You have kept your collection, and a great collection it is, out of slabs thus avoiding all this drama. Kudos to you.

 

Thank you!

 

[Hepcat]

I was simply trying to show that this is not an average 'pressing' thread where people are arguing over whether pressing is good or bad, but rather a thread about a distinctive type of pressing that resulted in less attractive books and the less attractive books is where the focus should be.

What a lot of us are trying to figure out is how and why a less attractive comic has received a noticeably higher grade from CGC. That just doesn't make sense.

 

It does if you're the one cashing the checks!

 

Which is why CGC's behaviour is perfectly understandable. What bewilders me though is the buyers who pay multiples for the "best in census" copy of any comic when it seems that a new "best in census" can be created at any time by manipulating a more average copy. Who knows? Maybe these buyers are guilt ridden masochists deep down and are out to redistribute their wealth to the more deserving.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Almost looks like these books are intentionally getting dumped on the market through various venues now that the spotlight is on them.

[mysterio]

I'd imagine they were being uber-pressed for sale to begin with, so the fact that they're showing up for sale now was the intention all along.

[Bomber-Bob]

here's a pretty book

 

Pretty soon, people will start saying "Buy the label, not the book".

Kind of like "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

 

i have no idea if this book has been schaved, and frankly don't care, but as it's about a $200 book by guide, and is from a title that doesn't sell at guide, generally, i have to wonder why anyone would invest the money in mattie and cgc to press this pedestrian comic. my guess is that we're seeing this book in it's natural state. bob wondered who s'city used as their pressing service in his post on the hex book; no way s'city had this book pressed.

 

You may be right. However, as has happened in the past, these Boards have given me something else to be anal about. I just don't like the look whether natural or not.

Did Sparklecity take down the auction ? I can't find the results on E-Bay.

[VintageComics]

There genuinely are comics that are miscut from the publisher that way. The cover is miscut before being attached and when attached even though the 3 edges of the book are trimmed after folding, the trimming blade doesn't ever meet with the cover edge because the cover is so short.

 

If it's a GA or an early SA book, and the cover is that short, I'd personally be leaning towards miscut before shrinkage.

 

I won't say it's common but it is out there. CGC used to label them as miscut in the old days when they had more notes on the label.

[Silver Surfer]

Here's a thought. Does shrinkage help mask trimming done on a book?

[fantastic_four]

Here's a thought. Does shrinkage help mask trimming done on a book?

 

It doesn't change the color or cut texture of the edges, no. Those are the only definitive ways I'm aware of to detect a trim.

[Silver Surfer]

Here's a thought. Does shrinkage help mask trimming done on a book?

 

It doesn't change the color or cut texture of the edges, no. Those are the only definitive ways I'm aware of to detect a trim.

 

Not sure how we can say a definitive "no" at this point when we don't even know how these covers are being shrunk?

[VintageComics]

Here's a thought. Does shrinkage help mask trimming done on a book?

 

It doesn't change the color or cut texture of the edges, no. Those are the only definitive ways I'm aware of to detect a trim.

 

Not sure how we can say a definitive "no" at this point when we don't even know how these covers are being shrunk?

 

I thought it was pretty clear at this point how they shrink.

 

Covers shrink naturally over time based on moisture change of the pulp/clay mixture.

More drastic humidity change cases more drastic shape change.

 

 

[Silver Surfer]

Here's a thought. Does shrinkage help mask trimming done on a book?

 

It doesn't change the color or cut texture of the edges, no. Those are the only definitive ways I'm aware of to detect a trim.

 

Not sure how we can say a definitive "no" at this point when we don't even know how these covers are being shrunk?

 

I thought it was pretty clear at this point how they shrink.

 

Covers shrink naturally over time based on moisture change of the pulp/clay mixture.

More drastic humidity change cases more drastic shape change.

 

 

Well the examples shown appear to be more on the "drastic" side of the equation and I don't subscribe to the shrinking natural over time, sounds like a load of bs to me especially for copies that have been kept in pristine condition for only 50 years. If the treatment results in a drastic shrinkage to the paper, logically you would think that trying to identify a trim might be harder as your no longer looking at a fresh cut anymore.

 

Also, does anyone recall how dust shadow's can be minimized that would allow the book to still sit in a blue label post treatment? I thought an aqueous wash would be used but that would usually make it detectable and would result in a PLOD? Just curious as a lot of these upgraded books look like they are being handled by professional resto people who may have new techniques, odourless solvents that may be passing through detection.