Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[LordRahl]

Front-to-back miswrap, many of which show the interior pages a bit.

 

How do we explain overhang?

[Straw-Man]

Natural humidity shrinkage does not explain the "Twist" either.

 

 

damn, bob, when you first said some of your pedigree books had lost some of their color after a press, i wasn't sure i believed it, by NOW, you have a convert. that there is some fadin'!

[Randall Dowling]

Clarify something for me Roy. Your saying that the examples provided in this thread clearly show signs of natural shrinkage even though they appear to have been recently pressed and possibly constanza'd.

 

No, he asked me about the natural examples, not Costanza books.

I've actually followed this thread all the way through and I'm curious also. Where are these "natural" examples you refer to? And how would you know that they were "natural"? Pressing isn't a new technique, just more widespread in the last 10 years. How would you know that a copy had not been tinkered with at some point in it's life. Tough thing to document, I think.

 

If you have copies of books that haven't grown / shrunk (whatever you think is happening), then it kind of blows the whole concept of "natural shrinkage" over decades out of the water. Unless...

I thought it was quite clear that climate change (humidity specifically) is responsible for the change in cover size and extreme climate change is responsible for the extreme change in cover size.

Wow. You actually did it. You brought global warming "climate change" into it. Bravo, sir.

 

Actually, I think you're correct about nano-climatic change (yes, I just made up that term, English is a living language, go with it.) But this distinction between "natural" and pressed is increasingly meaningless to me. I care about the condition of the book in it's current state. How it got there is less relevant. Unless...

 

CGC is knowingly or unknowingly creating an incentive to distort / damage books. And because I love comics, I kind of hate that they are playing coy on this issue. As if it's a giant mystery that no one can solve, a riddle wrapped up in an enigma and encased in a slab.

 

At this point, I think most people have a pretty good understanding of how comics are made and how they are manipulated / worked on after they are made...

 

Unless...

As far as it being fact or not, every single bit of evidence points to covers shrinking after the time of publication. I don't know of one single piece of evidence that contradicts this. If anyone has one, I'd genuinely love to hear it.

 

Actually, I believe the more likely scenario is that the body of the book is changing in size, not the cover, but I could be wrong. The pulp in newsprint just seems more sponge like.

 

Am I losing my mind?

 

You might be.

BUT, you might not be. You might actually be the sanest person in this thread.

 

It's possible... very possible.

 

BTW, pretty sure that Airboy was trimmed. That right side isn't even close to straight. My disappointment was that it was given that grade in it's current state.

[VintageComics]

I love the way you post.

 

Where are these "natural" examples you refer to? And how would you know that they were "natural"? Pressing isn't a new technique, just more widespread in the last 10 years. How would you know that a copy had not been tinkered with at some point in it's life. Tough thing to document, I think.

 

It is tough. I'm just going by my personal experience of comics bought out in the wild, from collections that either look like they have never been pressed or know for a fact that they have never been pressed.

 

In fact, I processed an OO collection recently that had mucho overhang and shortened covers but the books sat for decades untouched and I am sure they were never pressed.

 

If you have copies of books that haven't grown / shrunk (whatever you think is happening), then it kind of blows the whole concept of "natural shrinkage" over decades out of the water. Unless...

 

...Unless the shrinkage happens over a longer period of time and some books were able to escape the conditions that caused it.

 

Believe it or not I was thinking about this logical conclusion tonight.

 

There are definitely some books (that were not trimmed post production) that do not have an overhang or a cover shrinkage but they are rare to find out in the wild.

 

If the shrinkage does not happen shortly after publication / production (because if that were the case, it should happen to all books) then it must happen at some point after the newsstand and the storage conditions the book endures afterward.

 

Actually, I believe the more likely scenario is that the body of the book is changing in size, not the cover, but I could be wrong. The pulp in newsprint just seems more sponge like.

 

Never crossed my mind actually but my gut tells me it's probably easier for paper to shrink than it is for it to expand.

 

BTW, pretty sure that Airboy was trimmed. That right side isn't even close to straight. My disappointment was that it was given that grade in it's current state.

 

It is possible that it was trimmed, but considering CGC's hypersensitivity to trimmed books, and the fact that the Airboy would raise eye brows just based on appearance, I'd have to lean towards production. I'd have a hard time believing a macro trim would slip by.

 

I've had a few lower grade books with that miscut grade out in blue labels. The right edge not being straight could be attributed to just wear over the years, especially on a lower grade copy.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

Well the examples shown appear to be more on the "drastic" side of the equation and I don't subscribe to the shrinking natural over time, sounds like a load of bs to me especially for copies that have been kept in pristine condition for only 50 years.

 

There is no question that natural shrinkage and shape change occurs over time. Zero. Nada. Zip. It's a fact.

 

By using the term "over time" It appears that you are implying that the covers are shrinking from the time they are printed, all the way through to present day.

 

My position is: once the paper normalizes to atmospheric humidity, which should occur within a few days of printing, it would for all intents and purposes, not shrink/expand at all. It is my opinion that the normalization process can account for overhang as well as a minor amount of newsprint exposure(nothing like the Schave books). There are a few variables in play, most importantly variances in paper stock.

 

The main point being, there is no "continual" shrinkage going on, and hasn't been for 40+ years. If people were to assume that shrinkage is "ongoing" or "natural", then it is more likely that CGC will do nothing.

[Old Fashion PB and J]

This thread gets worst every time I click on it. Don't buy the books that were destroyed. Don't shop with people who are selling these books, as they obviously can't understand that CGC is not grading these correctly. Money Talks, BS Walks. The second dealers are having issues selling these, or are having them sent back, the situation will be addressed.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

What I personally think happens (and I think this theory has a lot of support as has been discussed in detail) is that the clay / pulp mixture of the cover paper causes it to shrink laterally (so the right edge moves closer to the spine by a very small amount) and the cover expands vertically or longitudinally so that the overhang increases in size by a small amount.

 

The reason the cover reacts differently than the interior pages is because the interior pages have no clay content and have different paper fibers.

 

The cover doesn't actually move, it simply changes shape.

 

 

No

 

The Schave coverstocks are shrinking in the horizontal dimension and expanding in the vertical dimension. This is due to damage to the grain of the paper caused by the pressing technique used. Most likely excess humidity being applied to the cover but also possibly increased temperature/pressure/time.

 

The grain acts as a stabilizing force maintaining the shape of the paper. By weakening the grain, the paper loses strength and contracts horizontally and expands vertically. Since every example shows the same horizontal shrinkage without any vertical shrinkage, it is clearly damage to the grain of the coverstock.

 

[VintageComics]

 

What I personally think happens (and I think this theory has a lot of support as has been discussed in detail) is that the clay / pulp mixture of the cover paper causes it to shrink laterally (so the right edge moves closer to the spine by a very small amount) and the cover expands vertically or longitudinally so that the overhang increases in size by a small amount.

 

The reason the cover reacts differently than the interior pages is because the interior pages have no clay content and have different paper fibers.

 

The cover doesn't actually move, it simply changes shape.

 

 

No

 

The Schave coverstocks are shrinking in the horizontal dimension and expanding in the vertical dimension. This is due to damage to the grain of the paper caused by the pressing technique used. Most likely excess humidity being applied to the cover but also possibly increased temperature/pressure/time.

 

The grain acts as a stabilizing force maintaining the shape of the paper. By weakening the grain, the paper loses strength and contracts horizontally and expands vertically. Since every example shows the same horizontal shrinkage without any vertical shrinkage, it is clearly damage to the grain of the coverstock.

 

I think I agree with everything you've said, so we might be saying the same thing again, two different ways.

 

Are you saying the interior pages do not change shape the same way the cover does solely because of the grain difference between interior and cover stock?

 

I had always thought that the clay content had something to do with it?

 

[mrwoogieman]

I think I have to stop reading this thread to save myself from reading Roy write the same twenty-seven words in different orders, over and over and over...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

 

 

 

 

Think of it as lawyer legalese, but about paper fibers.

 

 

 

[pickycollector]

This thread gets worst every time I click on it. Don't buy the books that were destroyed. Don't shop with people who are selling these books, as they obviously can't understand that CGC is not grading these correctly. Money Talks, BS Walks. The second dealers are having issues selling these, or are having them sent back, the situation will be addressed.

+1

[Bomber-Bob]

This thread gets worst every time I click on it. Don't buy the books that were destroyed. Don't shop with people who are selling these books, as they obviously can't understand that CGC is not grading these correctly. Money Talks, BS Walks. The second dealers are having issues selling these, or are having them sent back, the situation will be addressed.

+1

 

Sounds like a plan.

[BEAUMONTS]

This thread gets worst every time I click on it. Don't buy the books that were destroyed. Don't shop with people who are selling these books, as they obviously can't understand that CGC is not grading these correctly. Money Talks, BS Walks. The second dealers are having issues selling these, or are having them sent back, the situation will be addressed.

(thumbs u

[Silver Surfer]

Roy all this natural shrinkage talk still irks me, its a red herring and I'm not sure why its been debated to death in this thread. Its pretty clear that the books that originally raised concern in this thread were effected because of how they were pressed not because of the alignment of the moon, natural shrinkage, Church like stacks, etc. It's almost comical how much effort is being made trying to develop a theory that would suggest otherwise. I'm not buying it.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

 

What I personally think happens (and I think this theory has a lot of support as has been discussed in detail) is that the clay / pulp mixture of the cover paper causes it to shrink laterally (so the right edge moves closer to the spine by a very small amount) and the cover expands vertically or longitudinally so that the overhang increases in size by a small amount.

 

The reason the cover reacts differently than the interior pages is because the interior pages have no clay content and have different paper fibers.

 

The cover doesn't actually move, it simply changes shape.

 

 

No

 

The Schave coverstocks are shrinking in the horizontal dimension and expanding in the vertical dimension. This is due to damage to the grain of the paper caused by the pressing technique used. Most likely excess humidity being applied to the cover but also possibly increased temperature/pressure/time.

 

The grain acts as a stabilizing force maintaining the shape of the paper. By weakening the grain, the paper loses strength and contracts horizontally and expands vertically. Since every example shows the same horizontal shrinkage without any vertical shrinkage, it is clearly damage to the grain of the coverstock.

 

I think I agree with everything you've said, so we might be saying the same thing again, two different ways.

 

Are you saying the interior pages do not change shape the same way the cover does solely because of the grain difference between interior and cover stock?

 

I had always thought that the clay content had something to do with it?

 

No, it is not the same thing. The clay has nothing to do with it. If it was the clay, it would shrink the same in both directions, as the clay is not oriented. It is all the grain.

[Silver Surfer]

Clay theory is now

[paperheart]

Roy all this natural shrinkage talk still irks me, its a red herring and I'm not sure why its been debated to death in this thread. Its pretty clear that the books that originally raised concern in this thread were effected because of how they were pressed not because of the alignment of the moon, natural shrinkage, Church like stacks, etc. It's almost comical how much effort is being made trying to develop a theory that would suggest otherwise. I'm not buying it.

 

[jimbo_707]

 

It is possible that it was trimmed, but considering CGC's hypersensitivity to trimmed books, and the fact that the Airboy would raise eye brows just based on appearance, I'd have to lean towards production. I'd have a hard time believing a macro trim would slip by.

 

 

I've never seen comics being made, but is it possible that some books had covers that didn't quite reach the edge of a comic even before the trimming stage, so that one edge of the cover never got a production trim, e.g. if that cover was at the edge of a sheet of covers? Or was there always excess to be trimmed off?

 

(I'd still consider it a defect worthy of a penalty; I've never agreed with CGC giving a free pass to manufacturing defects.)

[jimbo_707]

I think he is talking about the fanned pages? Its pretty obvious that a lot of these books suffer from being slightly twisted off center.

 

Does the blade that cuts the comics come straight down and cut the whole book at the same time, like a big pair of nippers would do, or does it swing down like the blade of a manual paper cutter? If the blade starts cutting at one end, the cover could be slipping slightly - the blade, especially a dull blade, could be pulling on it slightly as the blade travels the length of the book. That would be especially true if the book weren't tightly clamped all the way across during the cutting process.

[DeliBebek]

The grain acts as a stabilizing force maintaining the shape of the paper. By weakening the grain, the paper loses strength and contracts horizontally and expands vertically. Since every example shows the same horizontal shrinkage without any vertical shrinkage, it is clearly damage to the grain of the coverstock.

Paper is made from wood pulp, a slurry of cellulose that is pressed to squeeze the water out of it. The cellulose fibers are oriented in every possible direction. This is what holds the paper together. There is no grain.

I had always thought that the clay content had something to do with it?

Kaolin clay is mixed into paper to strengthen it. The clay is subjected to hydration, heat and pressure before it is introduced into the wood pulp. The physical properties of the clay are such that it would destabilize only at higher temperatures and higher humidity than that which would damage the paper fibers.

Actually, I believe the more likely scenario is that the body of the book is changing in size, not the cover, but I could be wrong. The pulp in newsprint just seems more sponge like.

Never crossed my mind actually but my gut tells me it's probably easier for paper to shrink than it is for it to expand.

VintageComics, I've made this same statement in reply to some of your statements in this thread. Your proof of cover shrinkage has always begged the question, using the assumption of shrinkage as evidence to prove itself.