Answer from CGC.........

[drbanner]

The dating of which is one of the things I am compiling, by hand, for my Green River CGC data lists.

 

GR Marvel CGC Data Chart

 

When I get better at this, I will make the charts interactive, so that you can click on the Grading Date heading and the chart will resort itself chronologically or by grade, or by cert. #.

 

Good stuff...the graded date is available to CS members, but I don't think non-members have any means of finding it out, true?

[Red Hook]

Right. Unless you are a CS member, you can't do a search by certification number. But you could call up for the grading notes I suppose and they would give you the date if you asked. I assume that, anyway.

 

I don't think it's top secret information....but it might become more pertinent as time goes on. Also, it's always a red flag when a book is listed with a .0 grade, as that means the label has been taken out of the census, which could mean any number of things, including a resub.

[BassGMan]

 

 

 

I think a very good idea from a collector's standpoint is for CGC, if they go along with this absurd idea, to change the labels the moment Chris becomes a CCG employee. That would give collectors a reference to know the CGC comics they are buying either were graded before or after this fiasco. If pressing doesn't truly matter to collectors as CGC mantains, then changing the label (and it could be a very small annotation to note a difference) shouldn't be a problem.

 

Jim

 

This idea of changing labels is ridiculous. Whether Chris was affiliated or not, what's the difference? You say it may be a conflict of interests being affiliated, but other than that, there is no difference whatsoever with what is going on here. Chris will do the same work, on the same books, affiliated or not. You are acting like the whole market will change with this decision. It won't. It won't even be a blip on the radar scale. Chris will just be another comic-enhancer joining the other pros out there doing the same thing. There wil be no difference in the market, and CGC will be the same company as before, albeit with a new head resto-detection guy. Outside of the "conflict-of-interest" NOTHING is changing here. And if that conflict is your big gripe, then stay away from CGC as a protest and your vote will be counted. ----Sid

[nearmint]

Oldguy brought up a rumor that I seriously think Steve needs to address…

 

“Has there already been in-house pressing for select customers?”

 

This is a serious accusation that can’t just be swept aside. As customers we deserve an answer.

 

Agreed.

 

Now, the problem with this accusation is that other than hammer, the only source for the rumor is F_T, who I trust completely, but is really only passing along 2nd-hand information. There's also Memphiskidds example, but without the before scans no one knows what really happened, or how bad the book looked before.

 

Conversely, I have first-hand information that I will share with everyone regarding CGC pressing books in-house (or not).

 

Last summer ('03) I sold this book on ebay:

 

 

I shipped the book to the buyer, and he emailed me shortly after getting it and showed me these scans:

 

 

We both called Steve thinking that since the slab was fine, the damage was caused by CGC. Steve said to send him the book and he would take care of it. I did that, and shortly thereafter Harshen called me and gave me a credit to "make it right", and sent me this:

 

 

I don't know if pressing would have taken care of that problem, but it's possible. It's also possible that Memphiskidds book simply had a curled over corner that someone at CGC fixed using their thumb and forefinger. I don't know how much business The Kidd passes along to CGC, but I don't believe he's any more of a "select customer" than I am, and my book was not fixed, even though it would be pretty simple to press out that crease/bend since there's no color on that part of the cover.

 

I do believe that Certified Collectibles Group having both a grading company and a restoration company is a conflict of interest and is not good for the hobby (as it will promote blue-label restoration activities such as NDP), but like donut said, I also think that over time it will go the way of the Wizard First fiasco. The one impact it will have is that the population numbers for high-grade books will surely go up...which in turn means that prices will go down as former "top census" books become 2nd-fiddle.

 

I had a very similar experience with a Superman #21 that was mildly damaged by the bottom flap of the inner well. I contacted Steve, he regraded the book for free, and gave me a credit equal to the book's loss in value according to Overstreet. There was never any talk of "fixing" the damage.

 

 

[comicwiz]

I can't believe this is actually happening. At this point asking them not to do this seems like a waste of time. It's like messing with the natural order of things in the wild and destroying the food chain. It's screwing with mother nature. There will be a huge crash. Take the middle of the food chain and artificially enhance it up to the level of the predator on top and then everybody starves. The gazelles populations are thriving because the cheetah can't catch them, but they in turn are starving because there are so many of them there isn't enough grass to feed them. The cheetah is screwed because the gazelle is now on par with him and he can't eat. The top of the food chain just became one big cluster%$@* And the grass that used to grow in the form of the happy collector just left the building because he can't tell the difference between the real and the fake. Markets have to disclose whether or not a fish has been caught in the wild or grown in a farm or pen. That gives people the option of knowing what they are buying. This incredibly asinine idea of offering pressing and then not disclosing whether or not a book has been pressed and RESTORED (YES, IT'S RESTO) is BS. The honest and true high grade book that hasn't been restored will see its value go down sharply because now there are so many real and enhanced versions that demand and price dwindles. The dealer with the enhanced product gets screwed because they spent money not only to have it pressed but to be graded and they don't even make their money back. As collectors we lose since we won't even be able to buy VF raw books at cons any more. Once the dealer realizes he can have his VF copy upgraded he'll pull everything and have it graded. We'll be at cons looking at raw VG/FINES and hundreds of thousands of CGC 9.4's. The dealer will eventually lose his [#@$%!!!] since everyone and his mom has 5 9.4 copies of Iron Man #1. The populations of NM, VF, F, VG and G books has been determined naturally over the last 60 years or so. Lots of low and mid grades, fewer high grades. Supply and demand has worked much like survival of the fittest. Artificially enhancing any of these books will screw up our food chain. It will ruin this hobby. DO NOT DO THIS. PLEASE.

 

You are quite right Kramerica -- in fact, this is the "natural" progression most successful business take in the new milennia. It's a form of controlled economic climate that is seperating the quick from the dead. Sell less (of whatever it is you manufacture, or provide as a service) for more money. In CGC's case, you simply leverage the price increase on the services side with value added products, like resto removal and NDP pressing. It also conveniently deals with the real business dilemma that most people will jump ship and will no longer continue to support CGC, and not only does the price increase manage that loss in volume, but now conveniently address the backlog in submissions.

[Foolkiller]

Wow... a lot happens when you're gone for a weekend. I wish I had some real time between today and Monday to read this a lot more carefully than I do this morning.

 

I kind of figured an announcement like this was coming from CGC, and I kind of figured what it would say -- so I'm not that surprised.

 

I'm also not surprised by many of the reactions from board members:

 

As I'm sure others have suggested in this thread, if you are that upset with CGC here's the remedy:

 

1) Don't submit books anymore because you've "lost confidence in their product"

 

2) Don't buy CGC books anymore, they may have been pressed, and in the future may have been pressed by someone who works under the umbrella of the Collectibles Group.

 

The only real way, aside from this forum or calling Steve or Paul on the phone or whatever, to voice your opinion is to simply stop buying the product... that's it. Don't like Wizard First? Don't buy it. Don't like CGC now? Don't buy them.

 

I'm sure the response is, I don't wand to abandon the product, I just want it to be the best it can be and everything to be above board.

 

The truth is, everybody here, myself included, is going to keep using CGC for the most part. Keep having books slabbed for resale (even those of us not dealers, who sell books occasionally), keep buying slabbed books (because they are still the best resource) and keep collecting fundamentally how we have been all along.

 

People are making this announcement out to be the end of the frickin world: I seriously doubt, for all the huffing and puffing going on here, that any one of us is actually going to ACT any differently, despite what is being SAID. Until dealers, collectors and the community at large decides that they are going to stop using the service. Once this has a significant impact on their bottom line, then and ONLY then will there be a response to an outcry. 50 guys on a message board is not making an impact.

 

This project with Friesen will likely come to fruition. I can totally understand the perspective that people are very upset by this. But, and here's the rub, let's please not pretend like this is the be all and end all of things in the comic universe. I have many reasons for wanting to get out of high grade books right now, because the time is simply right to do it, and I've always preferred raw, but I love the CGC service for selling books, and buying very expensive keys in high grade.

 

When I see a response that people will stop using their service, even if it costs them money in the short term, then I'll believe the outcry... until then, there's many people here who ought to look in the mirror (and not everyone mind you) when discussing greed and the comic book hobby. We're all using CGC because it's the way to maximize the dollar we either receive or spend on a given book.

[awe4one]

This idea of changing labels is ridiculous. Whether Chris was affiliated or not, what's the difference? You say it may be a conflict of interests being affiliated, but other than that, there is no difference whatsoever with what is going on here. Chris will do the same work, on the same books, affiliated or not. You are acting like the whole market will change with this decision. It won't. It won't even be a blip on the radar scale. Chris will just be another comic-enhancer joining the other pros out there doing the same thing. There wil be no difference in the market, and CGC will be the same company as before, albeit with a new head resto-detection guy. Outside of the "conflict-of-interest" NOTHING is changing here. And if that conflict is your big gripe, then stay away from CGC as a protest and your vote will be counted. ----Sid

 

If you had been keeping up, you'd notice that one of problems with Chris working under the CCG banner is him pressing comics, CGC grading them and not noting the pressing on the label. Buyers would be denied knowledge about the pressing.

 

And before you start with "the pressing is going on now" mantra...CGC didn't previously give the seal of approval to restorers who pressed. Now Steve has come out and said support Chris and CCG wants in on the fun. I would want the option of knowing slabs that were graded before the decision and after. If CGC doesn't see this whole situation as a problem then what's the harm?

 

And as far as the market...yes...I think it's going to have huge implications down the line. You think the spread between high grade and lower grade was steep? Well mid grades are going to start to plumment with low high grades falling with it.

 

And finally, I do think this is going to start a mighty steep correction (or crash if that's in your lexicon). The market has already started going soft...this is happening at positively the worst time possible and going to make it steadedly softer.

 

You don't have to agree. I don't expect you to agree noting your middle of the road tendancies in the past. But don't let your rosy view of collecting cloud your view of what's going on here...

 

Jim

[comicwiz]

So am I correct in assuming you're saying collectors will just accept this pressing and move along?

 

Wizard First could just go away with no more slabs graded. This situation wouldn't go away and the longer it exists, the more tempting other resto procedures will be pondered to improve the bottom line. Unacceptable.

 

I think a very good idea from a collector's standpoint is for CGC, if they go along with this absurd idea, to change the labels the moment Chris becomes a CCG employee. That would give collectors a reference to know the CGC comics they are buying either were graded before or after this fiasco. If pressing doesn't truly matter to collectors as CGC mantains, then changing the label (and it could be a very small annotation to note a difference) shouldn't be a problem.

 

I foresee a time when old label CGC slabs are more desired in the marketplace. They may or may not be pressed but at least collectors will know it was graded before CGC jumped in bed with restorers...

 

Jim

 

I think collectors will come to terms with the new state of the hobby and deal with it as they see fit - you say you're going to stop buying slabs, others won't, others might try to seek out only "pre-COI" slabs, etc.,. I don't predict the apocalypse for the hobby based on this business decision, which has historical precedent in what happened to the coin hobby when this occurred.

 

As far as different labels, the simplest solution would be to adopt Budweiser's "Graded on (date)", which is something I believe has been suggested before. PGA does it!!

 

First off, anything PGA does first will never fly with CGC. We have seen time and time again rational decisions for product improvements that were passed on as soon as people mentioned PGA was already doing it.

 

Secondly, the reference to the numismatic hobby is an interesting one, and one quickly embraced by those who don't see any problem with what is being proposed. And since historical precedent is so quickly embraced in such discussion, then I suppose I don't need to remind anyone of the way the FTC took great exception to an influential numismatic expert who was "artificially" inflating values on coins, and the ensuing lawsuit which occured as a direct result of collectors kicking and screaming that this same influential coin values expert also happened to be affiliated to a well known coin dealer.

 

Let me ask you, do you really believe that the FTC wouldn't see any problem with what is being proposed here, especially if the idea is to have a restorations expert work to garner higher premiums on a comic, and still be affiliated to CGC? As I've said before, as far as I'm concerned, the only real solution, whether by self-regulation or mandated by legislation, is to have an independent regulatory body to oversee what is "actually" going-on in the certified collectibles market.

[lou_fine]

That appears to answer a few of my concerns.

1)Who will replace Chris-Paul

2) It's not a pressing only service-its a complete restoration lab for paper goods

 

But the part about being a long transition is very troubling. I don't see how anyone can make a gradual transition here. Either he's a restoration detector or he's a restoration artist.not both,or a little of each.

 

Theres some muddy water up ahead.

 

Shad;

 

I believe you have identify a major problem with CGC going forward from this point. There indeed are going to be some muddy waters up ahead, specifically with respect to the issue of restoration detection.

 

Acquiring the expertise to detect restoration is a long and ardous process and requires many years of experience and looking at thousands of books exhibiting possible restoration work (i.e. not MA or CA here). Even then, established dealers like Fishler and long-time collectors like Borock were able to detect most restoration work, but it's still really guesswork on their part as to the last 10% to 15% (example only) where the work could have been concealed very well. This is where the professional restorers really earn their money because they are able to authenticate the more "difficult" books based upon their expertise and knowledge of restoration activities.

 

To me, I have always viewed CGC as primarily a grading company with a quasi service for restoration detection. All books go through the hands of three graders and receive three independent grades. When it comes to restoration, however, the book basically is viewed by only one person. The graders should be able to pick out the books with obvious resto, but everything else is probably left in the hands of Chris. To do this job properly, the book should probably also be going through the hands of three professional restorers similar to the grading process. One final point, despite what Steve says about Chris's qualification, out of the top 5 restorers in the field, Chris was probably closer to the bottom of the list than the top of the list when he was hired by CGC. I certainly would have selected somebody else if I had wanted to get a book authenticated.

 

Passing the restoration detection torch into Paul's hands will be a difficult task and will be a process done over a period of time. This is completely understandable since Paul's background, as far as I know, is not in the restoration business. As a result, he will not readily know the finer nuances and details when it comes to possible restoration that a restorer would automatically know.

 

Bottom-line: The chances of getting a PLOD book with a blue CGC label has now been greatly magnified over and above the fact that CGC is giving the blue light of approval to cleaned and pressed books.

[ComicBookGuy]

Some thoughts...

 

Point 1: One question I'm curious about is the effect on the market for the old CGC slab / label. If this controversy does not blow over, will the old slabbed comics be considered worth more than the newer ones in future markets? I would think there would be more confidence in them. Further, if we want to reslab a comic and get the old label replaced with another old label, is this possible? I hope that it will be AND that new labels cannot receive old labels...

 

Point 2: I agree with this move being a conflict of interest. The restoration check, like the CGC grading, is a secret to those of us who do not work for CGC. With their main restoration guy leaving, WITH his trade secrets, he will know just which loopholes to manipulate to allow for restoration to occur without restoration being detected. That amounts to someone ultimately purchasing a book as unrestored when, in fact, it IS restored. This is not right. This will destroy confidence in the CGC product that we have come to respect.

 

Point 3: Restoration was not a dirty word in our hobby until CGC came along. So now we have a debate over whether pressing is restoration or not. There is no consensus on this as far as I can see, but...People who can make some money off it NOT being restoration say it's not. People who DO think it's restoration are the increasingly-frustrated buyers who don't want to buy unrestored books that have been pressed.

 

Point 4: More of a question: With restored books being sold for below guide values since the inception of CGC, how is it that all this work in restoration is now so in demand? Clearly, one possible answer might be that people have found ways to restore books in a way that raises the grade while getting by the CGC restoration check. Speculation on my part, but who in God's name would, in this day and age, get a book restored that they were planning on reselling??? Why would I pay someone to lower the market value of my comic???

 

Just some thoughts.

Steve, I hope you know what you're doing, cause I am a big supporter, and I hope you truly do what's best for the hobby.

[comicwiz]

Some thoughts...

 

Point 1: One question I'm curious about is the effect on the market for the old CGC slab / label. If this controversy does not blow over, will the old slabbed comics be considered worth more than the newer ones in future markets? I would think there would be more confidence in them. Further, if we want to reslab a comic and get the old label replaced with another old label, is this possible? I hope that it will be AND that new labels cannot receive old labels...

 

Point 2: I agree with this move being a conflict of interest. The restoration check, like the CGC grading, is a secret to those of us who do not work for CGC. With their main restoration guy leaving, WITH his trade secrets, he will know just which loopholes to manipulate to allow for restoration to occur without restoration being detected. That amounts to someone ultimately purchasing a book as unrestored when, in fact, it IS restored. This is not right. This will destroy confidence in the CGC product that we have come to respect.

 

Point 3: Restoration was not a dirty word in our hobby until CGC came along. So now we have a debate over whether pressing is restoration or not. There is no consensus on this as far as I can see, but...People who can make some money off it NOT being restoration say it's not. People who DO think it's restoration are the increasingly-frustrated buyers who don't want to buy unrestored books that have been pressed.

 

Point 4: More of a question: With restored books being sold for below guide values since the inception of CGC, how is it that all this work in restoration is now so in demand? Clearly, one possible answer might be that people have found ways to restore books in a way that raises the grade while getting by the CGC restoration check. Speculation on my part, but who in God's name would, in this day and age, get a book restored that they were planning on reselling??? Why would I pay someone to lower the market value of my comic???

 

Just some thoughts.

Steve, I hope you know what you're doing, cause I am a big supporter, and I hope you truly do what's best for the hobby.

 

Hey comicbookguy

 

If you haven't already been greeted, welcome to the boards

 

You raise some great points, but I believe that your 3rd point is not entirely an accurate one. I want to reiterate, as many have said before, that CGC did nothing to tarnish the perception towards restored books. Since being in this hobby for close to 20 years, and actively buying for a lot longer, it is my experience that what tarnished the perception towards restored books were greedy dealers trying to pass restored comic books off as unrestored, high-quality gems. This left a bitter taste in collectors mouths, especially when CGC came along, and began offering resto detection as part of their grading mix. Suddenly, all these people who had been fooled into believing they owned an unrestored beauty, arrived at the sad realization that they had been had. I applaud, and have always admired CGC for taking the initiative to bring this much needed resto dection service into the comic hobby, and offer it as one of the automatic tiers of services in their grading offerings.

 

The issue of whether non-disassembly pressing (NDP) is restoration is a divided one. People like myself believe that it is restoration, and that there are negative implications in it not being caught or flagged, especially for those collectors caught in the frenzy of the high-grade comic market. The methods shark-circlers have been employing is to take books (many already in the high-grade, NM grading strata -- ie. 9.0 and up) and attempt to eke out between a .2 and .4 grade increase through NDP pressing. The incremental grade increase means a quick buck made, and this is why the NDP service is so heavily sought after.

[lou_fine]

Just how profitable does CGC think comics restoration is?

 

Seems the only surefire way to mnake $$$s in resto is to press 9.2s into higher grades. Because other than that, its all color touch, deacidification, adding pieces etc. I havent seen her bank statements, but somehow I dont think Susan is pulling down 100,000s a year working on books.... is she? So -- If CGC/Chris presses upgrades for customers, just how much can he charge? Can he get a percentage of the increased value? If so THAT would be a real moneymaker - - AND a severe breach of trust for CGC for obvious reasons. They would get a piece of the cation for Chris' company AND a piece for the increased slabbing fees!! Can CGC REALLY be greedy and stupid enough to think this will NOT affect their trust level in the industry???

 

When will they learn to NOT seek out business in these ethically questionable areas???

 

Aman;

 

I was talking to a restorer with respect to ordering a book for next year. Somehow, the topic got to restoration work such as cleaning and pressing which he thought would really add to the value of any collection. He categorically stated that he would be able to do this type of work without detection by CGC in virtually all cases. The fee he charged WAS based upon a percentage of the increase in value for the book, and it was a very sizeable percentage. It is even worse than CGC which has a maximum cap on their grading fees. The restorers do not have a maximum cap and can make tens on thousands if the right book comes along. The point he tried to make was that if I didn't do it, I was simply leaving a ton of money on the table since the next guy that purchases my books would be more than happy to pick up the money.

 

It should also be pointed out that although the big dollars on a individual book basis comes from the GA books, the real dollars are coming from the SA and BA books due to the sheer volume and ease of doing the work on the thinner books. No difference from CGC here where grading should really be meant for the older GA and early SA books, yet most of the volume of business actually comes from the newer books.

 

And yes, these are indeed very questionable and unethical areas that CGC is planning to moved into. You may as well put Comic-Keys as the new head honcho in charge of CGC since he has the proper background and experience in this aspect of the industry. Now we know the real reason why Comic-Keys was banned from doing business with CGC and participating on these boards: CGC was planning to gain a monopoly situation in the "restoration without detection" part of the market and didn't want Comic-Keys to impinge on their share of this VERY LUCRATIVE market.

 

Lou - -ten years ago, during the Sotheby's/Restoration heyday when it was good business to restore GA books to make money Susan was quoted as being a bit frustrated that she would get her fee for each service, only to watch her work yield thousands of dollars of profit to the dealers who had comissioned her. In other words, she was working for scale, work-for-hire, with no added bonuses for performance. Has this changed? Does your restorer friend actually contract for a % of the sales price over a current market value for the original grade?

 

Aman;

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

For your infomation, the restorer is not a friend of mine. I have never dealt with him before except for occasional conversations at the SD cons approx 10 years ago when he was still a dealer. Absolutely surprised that he still remembered me since I have been out of the loop for several years now. The only reason I called him was to placed an order for a book which he is suppossedly finishing for next year.

 

When the discussion got around to restoration (i.e. cleaning & pressing), I did asked him about the fees involved. Yes, there is a FLAT FEE with respect to most books. For the life of me, I can't remember what this fee was, but I believe it is well under $100. For books with a higher market value, however, the fee IS based upon a percentage increase in the perceived value of the book. No idea how they get these values, but I believe it is based upon market value as oppossed to OS guide. When I stupidly mentioned 2% or 3%, I was rather surprised when he quoted me a percentage in the double digits. Can't remember what this % was either since I am trying my best to forget this conversation ever took place.

 

As was stated to me, most quality books will end up going through this process eventually since there is just too much money involved and CGC just not possess the expertise to detect some of the resto work being done. The trick is to know exactly how much to do for each activity and still get it by CGC and that was what he was being paid to perform. Part way through this conversation, I started to feel very sleazy and dirty as if I was participating in an illegal drug transaction and decided to end the call in case my phone was being tapped.

 

Never did end up placing the order since I think he is just too busy doing resto work to ever finish the book. It does leave me wondering, however, if I will be able to resist the temptation of a possible six-figure increase in the value of one of my books based upon a matter of principle only.

[supapimp]

Wow... a lot happens when you're gone for a weekend. I wish I had some real time between today and Monday to read this a lot more carefully than I do this morning.

 

I kind of figured an announcement like this was coming from CGC, and I kind of figured what it would say -- so I'm not that surprised.

 

I'm also not surprised by many of the reactions from board members:

 

As I'm sure others have suggested in this thread, if you are that upset with CGC here's the remedy:

 

1) Don't submit books anymore because you've "lost confidence in their product"

 

2) Don't buy CGC books anymore, they may have been pressed, and in the future may have been pressed by someone who works under the umbrella of the Collectibles Group.

 

The only real way, aside from this forum or calling Steve or Paul on the phone or whatever, to voice your opinion is to simply stop buying the product... that's it. Don't like Wizard First? Don't buy it. Don't like CGC now? Don't buy them.

 

I'm sure the response is, I don't wand to abandon the product, I just want it to be the best it can be and everything to be above board.

 

The truth is, everybody here, myself included, is going to keep using CGC for the most part. Keep having books slabbed for resale (even those of us not dealers, who sell books occasionally), keep buying slabbed books (because they are still the best resource) and keep collecting fundamentally how we have been all along.

 

People are making this announcement out to be the end of the frickin world: I seriously doubt, for all the huffing and puffing going on here, that any one of us is actually going to ACT any differently, despite what is being SAID. Until dealers, collectors and the community at large decides that they are going to stop using the service. Once this has a significant impact on their bottom line, then and ONLY then will there be a response to an outcry. 50 guys on a message board is not making an impact.

 

This project with Friesen will likely come to fruition. I can totally understand the perspective that people are very upset by this. But, and here's the rub, let's please not pretend like this is the be all and end all of things in the comic universe. I have many reasons for wanting to get out of high grade books right now, because the time is simply right to do it, and I've always preferred raw, but I love the CGC service for selling books, and buying very expensive keys in high grade.

 

When I see a response that people will stop using their service, even if it costs them money in the short term, then I'll believe the outcry... until then, there's many people here who ought to look in the mirror (and not everyone mind you) when discussing greed and the comic book hobby. We're all using CGC because it's the way to maximize the dollar we either receive or spend on a given book.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Is it too late to change my stance? I'm getting pretty sick of going against the grain, and have decided to go with the flow ...

 

I'm going to go through my collection tonight, and start pulling books that I feel will benefit from the pressing process.

 

On second thought....why even bother?

 

Instead of getting my books pressed prior to sale, I'll just list them as is..and include something like this in the item description:

 

Although this book was graded a 9.2 by CGC, it would surely grade out at 9.6 were you to press & re-submit. I called CGC for the grader's notes on this book, and the only defect listed was a 2" non color-breaking crease on the back cover

 

 

 

 

I'm assuming people will be willing to pay a PREMIUM for books that can be improved .

[supapimp]

if you can't beat them, join them.

[THE_BEYONDER]

if you can't beat them, join them.

 

Not exactly. I wouldn't be joining them per se...I would merely be catering to them .

[lou_fine]

Point 3: Restoration was not a dirty word in our hobby until CGC came along. So now we have a debate over whether pressing is restoration or not. There is no consensus on this as far as I can see, but...People who can make some money off it NOT being restoration say it's not. People who DO think it's restoration are the increasingly-frustrated buyers who don't want to buy unrestored books that have been pressed.

 

Point 4: More of a question: With restored books being sold for below guide values since the inception of CGC, how is it that all this work in restoration is now so in demand? Clearly, one possible answer might be that people have found ways to restore books in a way that raises the grade while getting by the CGC restoration check. Speculation on my part, but who in God's name would, in this day and age, get a book restored that they were planning on reselling??? Why would I pay someone to lower the market value of my comic???

 

Welcome to the boards.

 

Point 3: As comicwhiz was saying, restoration has ALWAYS been looked upon with a very neagative viewpoint. It's just that CGC has stigmitized restored books even more through their indiscriminate use of the PLOD labels.

 

Point 4: Collectors are not sending their books to restorers to lower the value of their books. They are sending them in to increase the value of the books through slight increases in grade. For example, a Hulk #181 in 9.2 might go for $1,200; in 9.4 for $2,500; in 9.6 for $5,000, in 9.8 for $18,000; and in 9.9 for $50,000. These books are being sent in to be "doctored up" in such a way as to get these very slight increases in grade.

 

Bottom-line: The job of the professional restorer is to jucied up the book in such a way as to obtain these slight increases in grade without triggering the PLOD label. That is what we are paying them the big money for. Instead of having the restorers working on our side in detecting restoration, the current market environment has them working against us by performing restoration without detection.

[BassGMan]

if you can't beat them, join them.

 

I believe this may very well happen. He may not be serious, but read the last sentence in Lou's second to last post. Just remember that with all that is going on, like it or not, this is the new comics market. I'm not saying that is a good thing, but I am facing the reality. Sure, fight it if you want, but if the majority just goes along with it, it will stay this way and get even more shady. So, with that information, if the waters are too murky, just stay out. This is a risky game here and nothing is guaranteed. Personally, a little bit of risk is fun for me, as it can work out either good or bad. But then again, I am not putting serious money into this. My books are short-term and "light" investments and flips. For those putting what they consider to be serious money into the hobby, if you can't take it, you may want to reallign your investment/collections portfolio.

[COI]

The truth is, everybody here, myself included, is going to keep using CGC for the most part. Keep having books slabbed for resale (even those of us not dealers, who sell books occasionally), keep buying slabbed books (because they are still the best resource) and keep collecting fundamentally how we have been all along.

 

People are making this announcement out to be the end of the frickin world: I seriously doubt, for all the huffing and puffing going on here, that any one of us is actually going to ACT any differently, despite what is being SAID. Until dealers, collectors and the community at large decides that they are going to stop using the service. Once this has a significant impact on their bottom line, then and ONLY then will there be a response to an outcry. 50 guys on a message board is not making an impact.

 

Excellent.

[supapimp]

in all honesty, i use CGC for one thing...to make money. it shouldn't come as a shock to anybody. as robert storms says...every collector wants or has become basically a dealer with the advent of CGC. i'll wait the extra three months to make 4X guide than to sell the book raw and hoping it gets guide.