Answer from CGC.........

[fantastic_four]

Well I've never been in this hobby for the money. Never. Believe it or not, there are a few here on this Forum that care about the overall hobby in general and can see how bad this situation is. Money doesn't have to be a part of your outlook on collecting to see what a terrible and irresponsible decision this is on CGC's part.

 

A healthy hobby is good for everyone whether you spend a 10 grand a month on comics or $50...

 

I didn't mean that people are outraged over pressing because they're consciously collecting comics with the primary goal of making money; those are what we call "speculators" or "dealers." I know you're a collector, but I've personally never met a high grade collector who didn't own Overstreet and didn't know how much a part, or the whole, of their collection was worth. Whether you're 12 years old and you're tracking your Ultimate Spider-Man #1 in Wizard every month, or whether you're Jay Parrino feeling great about the $110K price bar you just set on the Spidey #1 CGC 9.6 you just sold, you've both got a common appreciation for something--comics (or coins or whatever collectible) can be compelling because they sometimes appreciate in value. Wizard wouldn't be the phenomenon it is if this wasn't a vibrant facet of the hobby.

 

I'm not saying that's the ONLY reason people collect--again, those are speculators, and I don't think there are ANY pure speculators here that I can recall (except Comgeek, maybe). But ever since we bought our first Overstreets, we've enjoyed the mini-stock market that comics can sometimes feel like, and that's one of the biggest downers that CCS represents--some people "winning" on value by pressing, other people "losing" on value by not pressing or buying other people's pressed books, and the market as a whole going down a bit because of the malaise surrounding the whole issue. That's not the only attitude out there, but it's the one resulting in most of the outrage.

 

Based upon the success of NCS and its competitive coin cleaning service which came out before it, I really can't see this kind of service causing any long-term decline in the back issue market, or really any measurable dent in CGC's business. And I can't imagine that Chris and the Collector's Society aren't looking at the exact same precedent in their business modelling. Even the precedent WITHIN the hobby has been largely favorable...we've known for a while here by comparing scans in their permanent auction archives that Heritage and Matt Nelson have been almost OPENLY pressing for a while, yet even most of THOSE people acutely aware of it are still here...

 

I fully expect that a small minority of collectors will leave the hobby over something like this. I also fully expect the ever-diminishing stream of incoming high grade collectors to care far less about this issue than the majority of us do.

[blowout]

 

Based upon the success of NCS and its competitive coin cleaning service which came out before it, I really can't see this kind of service causing any long-term decline in the back issue market, or really any measurable dent in CGC's business. And I can't imagine that Chris and the Collector's Society aren't looking at the exact same precedent in their business modelling. Even the precedent WITHIN the hobby has been largely favorable...we've known for a while here by comparing scans in their permanent auction archives that Heritage and Matt Nelson have been almost OPENLY pressing for a while, yet even most of THOSE people acutely aware of it are still here...

 

I fully expect that a small minority of collectors will leave the hobby over something like this. I also fully expect the ever-diminishing stream of incoming high grade collectors to care far less about this issue than the majority of us do.

 

That's obviously what you want to believe, and what you want to convince others to believe. The reality is likely to be quite different.

[shadroch]

Well,after 32 pages,i supose steve and the powers that be at CCg know how we feel about this. I wonder how they'll poll the other 99.995% of the hobby.

[blowout]

Well,after 32 pages,i supose steve and the powers that be at CCg know how we feel about this. I wonder how they'll poll the other 99.995% of the hobby.

 

Doesn't matter, this segment is where all the $$$ are.

[fantastic_four]

That's obviously what you want to believe, and what you want to convince others to believe. The reality is likely to be quite different.

 

It's not what I "want" to believe, it's what my research into this hobby and others like it is strongly suggesting. Please share any contradictory empirical evidence you find to the contrary.

[BassGMan]

This is all capitalism folks. The ones who perceive themselves to be holding the short end of the stick feel one way, and the ones who feel as if they may come out ahead feel another way (generally speaking). I'm in middle of this (yet again!) where I can see the viewpoints of the collector and the businesses that can profit from this scenario. As long as it is all above board and no laws are being broken, then I find no problem with pressers OR CGC/Chris and their potential move. I put this whole thing in the hands of the comic buying public.

 

These businesses are created to fill a need for a service. If there wasn't a need, they would not be there. Now I realize that many people don't care so much about pressing on it's own, but that it is the disclosure of this "restoration" that counts. Unfortunately we are not going to be able to get around that issue. I agree that if all professional pressing was evident to restoration detectors, then disclosing it would be great. But it isn't, so let's just get past that aspect. So here we have books on the market, some of them pressed without any disclosure. This is where I again put the responsibility back into the buyer's hands. Realizing this, you may want to think twice about putting your money into these potentially pressed books. If you resist (in the masses) then prices will fall. If prices fall, pressers will go out of business, if CGC's business drops, THEY will go out of business.

 

Some win, some lose. If you don't want to take a chance, then don't play the game. And for those wondering, yes I do love comics for just being comics. But I do not care what somebody else does with his comics. If some guy wants to press some books, go for it. If he then wants to sell them, go for it, the public may not want to pay that much for these books (like all others) under these new market conditions, so the guy may think twice about pressing again next time. If enough of this goes around, the market will tank. So I say, DO NOT BUY ANY VALUABLE COMICS, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO HAVE BEEN PRESSED. Tank the market. Yes, I said TANK IT. Only then will these guys go out of business and the pressing will cease. This may sound extreme, and the owners of high dollar books may start to sweat if this happens, but this is life in the financial/collectibles market.

 

 

This may all be hot air, but they are just some thoughts that popped into my head as I am reading all these posts about people complaining about their valuable comics potentially losing value, as well as sellers (including me) losing profit on current inventory. If I end up with a collection (and selling inventory) that loses value because of all this, then so be it, there were some smarter businessmen out there than me.

 

For those that just collect because they like to collect (not dealers at all) then sorry, but be aware of the hobby you are involved in, because although to you it is a love for the art form, for many others it is cutthroat business. And either way, we all play together and cross each other's paths.

[drbanner]

I fully expect that a small minority of collectors will leave the hobby over something like this. I also fully expect the ever-diminishing stream of incoming high grade collectors to care far less about this issue than the majority of us do.

 

Like many of the more outspoken opponents of this scheme, I'm not in the pool of collectors that frequently spend $500+ on high-grade CGC books and I don't think it sounds like such a great idea, but I wonder what the BSD's think of it? I'll continue to buy books I'm interested in raw or slabbed, so it really isn't going to make me change my buying habits. In the end, the impact on CGC's business and the market comes down to what the end users of the product thinks, not the peanut gallery here on the boards.

 

At the end of the day, $$ talks and BS walks boyz...

[drbanner]

I'm in middle of this (yet again!) where I can see the viewpoints of the collector and the businesses that can profit from this scenario.

 

Can someone tell me if I need to read the rest of this post?

 

(jk Sid... )

[fantastic_four]

I wonder what the BSD's think of it?

 

"If CCS won't ship my comics straight to CGC, why would I wait an extra week and pay for the extra shipping to use them instead of Matt or Susan?"

[Tango 'n Cash]

Can someone tell me if I need to read the rest of this post?

 

I assumed it was simply more of the "I hope I can still flip comics for profit" thinly veiled commentary.

[Illiterati-migration]

That's obviously what you want to believe, and what you want to convince others to believe. The reality is likely to be quite different.

 

It's not what I "want" to believe, it's what my research into this hobby and others like it is strongly suggesting. Please share any contradictory empirical evidence you find to the contrary.

 

You're so full of it. Your "research"? Do you consider your time spent here on the message board "research"? You have yet to share any "empirical evidence" yourself, you know.

 

I'm not trying to flame you here, FF, but you're being incredibly vague and extremely patronizing.

 

Beyond that, I see very few parallels between the coin and comic book markets.

A question I would like answered, though, is how do coin collectors feel about restoration? What does a "restored" (cleaned) coin do to its value? I had several extended conversations with my grandfather (a prominent coin dealer/collector for 30+ years) about the nature of the coin collecting industry (he's not a fan of NCS and sees little use for it) over Thanksgiving, but I forgot to ask him about that. He did, however, tell me about counterfeit coins... and we should thank our various heathen gods that we don't have to worry about THAT (except for you UG collectors).

[OldGuy]

I wonder what the BSD's think of it?

 

"If CCS won't ship my comics straight to CGC, why would I wait an extra week and pay for the extra shipping to use them instead of Matt or Susan?"

 

[OldGuy]

This thread is fun, like horses.

[BassGMan]

Can someone tell me if I need to read the rest of this post?

 

I assumed it was simply more of the "I hope I can still flip comics for profit" thinly veiled commentary.

 

I'm not really that concerned about how this will affect me flipping my little Bronze books. But I am fascinated by how people have been reacting to this and I have great interest in seeing how (if at all) this will affect the market. Granted I follow the stock market like a hawk as well. It's all really interesting to me. Funny how hyped up people get when they think there are some changes coming. Greed and fear are funny things.

[Tango 'n Cash]

Greed and fear are funny things.

 

Obviously from the sheer amount of posts you are making.

[shadroch]

Well,after 32 pages,i supose steve and the powers that be at CCg know how we feel about this. I wonder how they'll poll the other 99.995% of the hobby.

 

Doesn't matter, this segment is where all the $$$ are.

 

 

Please check out the polls and surveys done here last year. If the $$$$$ in the hobby are here on this forum,

it truly is in deep do-do. We have heard from two mid-level dealers,a bunch of serious collectors and a few fan-boys.I am consistently surprised how few slabs many of my fellow forumites own,and most of them seem to aquirred them from dealers,rather than their own submissions.At major shows(The National and Wizard worlds)the vast majority of books are unslabbed . If someone could find a way to affordably transform Vg- books into Vfish books,they'd make a heck of a lot more money and have a bigger base than by changing 9.2s into 9.6s.

[blowout]

Well,after 32 pages,i supose steve and the powers that be at CCg know how we feel about this. I wonder how they'll poll the other 99.995% of the hobby.

 

Doesn't matter, this segment is where all the $$$ are.

 

 

Please check out the polls and surveys done here last year. If the $$$$$ in the hobby are here on this forum,

 

I meant the CGC graded section of the market, not the forum.

[COI]

As collectors we can do our part and not buy slabs but the effect will take longer to take hold. Stick with dealers who you know are great graders (Blazing Bob, Banner, and others - they are out there...) and you can collect just as well as before. Only difference is you won't have a numerical number to flout to your friends. I've stopped buying slabs but don't expect it to have any effect whatsoever other than giving me a clear conscious. And I have to say it feels great...

 

This dosen't work for high grade Silver. I'm sorry, but it just dosen't. I would LOVE to be able to complete my ASM run raw. Problem is, on the rare occasion that you find an accurately graded 9.2/9.4, it's priced at or very near to what a slabbed version goes for. And I don't care how good of a grader or how reputable that dealer is, it's just too nerve racking to spend that kind of money on an ungraded book. I don't but slabs to "have a numerical number to flout to my friends". I don't even have any friends who collect(outside of the guys I know on this forum). I buy graded books because it's the best alternative for me, at this time, to collect the way I want to. If you have another alternative, please tell me. If it works, I'll never buy a slab again.

[BassGMan]

Greed and fear are funny things.

 

Obviously from the sheer amount of posts you are making.

 

Huh? I am far from having either of those traits concerning this hobby sir. But I do certainly enjoy reading other posts of people that do. It is mainly fear and loathing that I see here. I think in many cases the two are connected. And if you consider doing a little flipping as greed, then you must consider anyone that sells any product for a profit as greedy. If it is only honest flippers (or comic dealers - same thing) that are greedy, then please explain as I'd really like to know.

[Samurai-Bill]

For me it's over .

 

I have been building an FF registry of CGC graded comics , NO MORE .

 

Problem number one is slab damage you look at comics for sale on Comiclink or ETC ... and you can see a 9.4 is now a 9.0 or less .

 

If restoration is now also a factor whats the point in paying the premium for CGC comics , I will not sell my comics but I will crack the slabs and bag and board them .