Answer from CGC.........

[THE_BEYONDER]

The bottom line is that I don't think there will be any technology in my lifetime that can reliably detect aftermarket, professional pressing and distinguish those effects from the effects of other factors on comic books (humidity from storage, pressing during production, etc.). Having that as my firm belief, I am faced with one of two choices: (a) leave the hobby in disgust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I choose (b).

 

 

The question being of course:

 

Will you be submitting comics for pressing, and will you diclose that pressing on the books that you sell?

[FFB]

The bottom line is that I don't think there will be any technology in my lifetime that can reliably detect aftermarket, professional pressing and distinguish those effects from the effects of other factors on comic books (humidity from storage, pressing during production, etc.). Having that as my firm belief, I am faced with one of two choices: (a) leave the hobby in disgust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I choose (b).

 

 

The question being of course:

 

Will you be submitting comics for pressing, and will you diclose that pressing on the books that you sell?

 

So your response to what I wrote is not to consider what I wrote and think about whether it has any validity, but instead to put me on the spot and question my ethics? [#@$%!!!] you.

[jbud73]

 

i just can't help myself here - must respond to tho post;

 

scenario #1 - IF such a detection device EVER comes about, that'll be a beyotch that will then have to be dealt with as there probably are already ton's of pressed books out there.........

 

Scenario #2; do you really believe that the market acceptance of the pressing of books could so quickly raise the numbers of HG copies of Key books??? you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear..........

 

Scenario #3 ; can't for the life of me understand why you'd believe that VF and VF+ books would be safe from pressing. FFB has opined many times that he believe's that mid-grade books might be better candidates for pressing and i believe he may have something there. might not be as dramatically lucrative as HG, but where money is to be made, it will be...........

 

Scenario #4; i believe I know of exactly one documented instance of a slabbed books reversion after it was believed to have been pressed. (i think it was Comiwiz's). not exactly the kind of a database to build a thesis on..............

 

i personally don't like the impression that this alliance will create in the hobby and have strong feelings about the ethical issues. i would have liked to see CGC's parent walk away from this for the good of the hobby...................

 

 

Yes Harry, I think that your critique, or rebuttle has some validity to it. The original points being worst case scenerios and taken to an extreme end.

 

For me the key concept is "what is actually being done to the comic book and is that in the best interest of the actual book." Matt Nelson's articles and other professional restoration individuals have always expressed the sentiment that restoration is a positive thing done to conserve and protect a comic from furhter deterioration.

 

I have always applauded this view - and I think a lot of the stigma that exists with restoration stems from the amateur hacks jobs, espscially trimming and slight (A) color touch that were the rage in previous years. I would argue that much if not all of this Amatuer restoration was done with one thing in mind. Greed - to eek out a few extra dollars with CT by conceiling a crease, or trimming to get better corners and edges. It was not done to conserve comics from further deterioration and it must have driven top pros like Susan, Tracy and Matt nuts that their profession was being ransacked by these insufficiently_thoughtful_persons out to make a few $$$$.

 

To my mind pressing, though in existance before CGC has become to new slight Amateur method of eeking out a few extra dollars on comic books. I mean lets not kid outselves here, you can pick up a press to get the job done for $300-$400, most sellers would consider that an expense akin to a scanner. Despite what some have speculated, a proper pressing job does not take months. The whole point is that heat and mositure in proper application speed up the process. "Oh only certain people have the arcane wisdom to figure out what the proper technique is. Another load of [#@$%!!!] - give any average comic collector and or dealer a hundred crappy books with the right defects and a month working with the same machine and I bet they have the process down and are ready to perform it on some better books - no problem.

 

So whats the point??? Well I have 3 essentially.

 

1. Pressing is NOT being done in the best interest of the comic book, it actually has the potential to do more harm than good to the molecular structure of the book - which to which it shares more with slight CT, and trimming. This is why I do not support it.

 

2. It seems that this time the professionals (except Susan) have adopted a "Well if we can't beat them, might as well join them" attitude. I guess in one respect this is a proactive approach, instead of letting books be cooked by anyone you might be better off sending it to a pro. But I think in time Chis is going to have a staff and all that quality and attention to detail stuff will get chucked out the window - I mean does he sit there and watch the press 24/7 stroking it and feeding it Milk and Cookies?? Pressing via CCG will be a volume business -sooner, or later.

 

3. And the last point - why are some people up in arms

 

- CGC creates the criteria - unpublished

- They set a standard in that criteria for what is and is not resto.

- CCG (their parent company) creates a specialized service to take advantage of what many view as a loophole in that criteria.

- They are truly to my mind manufacturing collectibles now. The Wizard First initiative, the sig series and now this, the trend is there and to me it UNDERMINES THEIR CREDIBILITY.

 

Steve I know and respect you but I cannot support this initiative - it is IMO not undertaken in the best interest of the comic book, or the hobby. You may state that CGC is not party to the venture and that they simply operate under the same parent company. Even with the rosiest colored glasses in the world I couldn't accept that as a justification.

 

Rgs,

 

Jason

[Tango 'n Cash]

Wow! Who is comicworm, and why has he gone insane?

[garthgantu]

I guess all you guys who are bothered by pressing are just going to have to find another high end hobby....

 

I hear coin collecting is fine....

 

Last I checked, and I do aollect coins as well, you cannot press a coin!

 

Here's an idea: take one of your collectible coins, and place it on a railroad track. Wait until the 5:15 rolls by, and see if the coin isn't pressed. Oh, and don't forget to hang on to it during the pressing

[THE_BEYONDER]

The bottom line is that I don't think there will be any technology in my lifetime that can reliably detect aftermarket, professional pressing and distinguish those effects from the effects of other factors on comic books (humidity from storage, pressing during production, etc.). Having that as my firm belief, I am faced with one of two choices: (a) leave the hobby in disgust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I choose (b).

 

 

The question being of course:

 

Will you be submitting comics for pressing, and will you diclose that pressing on the books that you sell?

 

So your response to what I wrote is not to consider what I wrote and think about whether it has any validity, but instead to put me on the spot and question my ethics? [#@$%!!!] you.

 

I considered what you wrote & found what you said to be completely valid.

 

Didn't feel I was putting you on the spot, nor was I attempting to question your ethics.

 

Although....I see from your response that I must have hit a nerve.

 

Pardon me while I go [#@$%!!!] myself.

[FFB]

The bottom line is that I don't think there will be any technology in my lifetime that can reliably detect aftermarket, professional pressing and distinguish those effects from the effects of other factors on comic books (humidity from storage, pressing during production, etc.). Having that as my firm belief, I am faced with one of two choices: (a) leave the hobby in disgust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I choose (b).

 

 

The question being of course:

 

Will you be submitting comics for pressing, and will you diclose that pressing on the books that you sell?

 

So your response to what I wrote is not to consider what I wrote and think about whether it has any validity, but instead to put me on the spot and question my ethics? [#@$%!!!] you.

 

I considered what you wrote & found what you said to be completely valid.

 

Didn't feel I was putting you on the spot, nor was I attempting to question your ethics.

 

Although....I see from your response that I must have hit a nerve.

 

Pardon me while I go [#@$%!!!] myself.

 

Yes, you did hit a nerve. You ignored every single one of the points I raised in my post and instead chose to put me on the spot and ask if I am going to press books and sell them without disclosing it. But rather than continue to chew you out about it, I'll end here so as not to delay you in getting down to the business of [#@$%!!!] yourself.

[Silver Surfer]

The bottom line is that I don't think there will be any technology in my lifetime that can reliably detect aftermarket, professional pressing and distinguish those effects from the effects of other factors on comic books (humidity from storage, pressing during production, etc.). Having that as my firm belief, I am faced with one of two choices: (a) leave the hobby in disgust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I choose (b).

 

 

The question being of course:

 

Will you be submitting comics for pressing, and will you diclose that pressing on the books that you sell?

 

So your response to what I wrote is not to consider what I wrote and think about whether it has any validity, but instead to put me on the spot and question my ethics? [#@$%!!!] you.

 

I think your overreacting Scott. I guess he could have asked, "would you want to know if the blue label books that you buy have been pressed or not?". Fair question? I agree with your comments that restoration allows us to preserve works of art but I find it hard to see how pressing would accomplish this? I don't see restoration as "evil" but I could really care less for greed driven ventures in this hobby. So far they haven't been able to justify or communicate to us how this is going to be good for the hooby.

[comicworm]

you will never be able to detect pressing and neither will a third party grader-why not accept it?

 

really-who cares??

 

what are you adding to the book-nothing

 

how can this be a form of restoration?

 

humidity can still penetrate even slabbed comics for crying out loud!

[THE_BEYONDER]

you will never be able to detect pressing and neither will a third party grader-why not accept it?

 

really-who cares??

 

what are you adding to the book-nothing

 

how can this be a form of restoration?

 

humidity can still penetrate even slabbed comics for crying out loud!

 

Please stop.

[towards2112]

 

Keep it up.

All this diatribe[sic] makes my boring day seem rather pleasant.

[comicworm]

why should I stop BEYONDER -to passify you??

[jbud73]

The bottom line is that I don't think there will be any technology in my lifetime that can reliably detect aftermarket, professional pressing and distinguish those effects from the effects of other factors on comic books (humidity from storage, pressing during production, etc.). Having that as my firm belief, I am faced with one of two choices: (a) leave the hobby in disgust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I choose (b).

 

 

The question being of course:

 

Will you be submitting comics for pressing, and will you diclose that pressing on the books that you sell?

 

So your response to what I wrote is not to consider what I wrote and think about whether it has any validity, but instead to put me on the spot and question my ethics? [#@$%!!!] you.

 

 

Scott I just read your post - absolutely great stuff, maybe one of the better accounts I have ever read on the topic and there have been many. I will add one caveat.

 

As a collector I am always looking to get the best comic book I can for the best price. NDP at its core has the goal of taking comic books and altering them so as to still garner a BLUE LABEL and therefore net the premium that that brings in the market place.

 

What NDP solidifies in my mind is that the premium now being paid for the CGC blue label comics book is NOT WORTH IT. When we consider what is and is not possible in the CGC BLUE LABEL I think that any resonable collector will over time come to the same assertion to a greater or lesser extent. I am not saying I agree that there will be 100s of 9.4 ASM #1's on the Census next week. I so not think that at all.

 

What I do think is that it will be more subtle than that. IE over time as techniques get perfected and methods for improvement other than NDP develop and still garner a Blue Label. Slowly the tide of the rarity factor will be stemmed a bit. If this Board has taought me anything its that the "CGC grade is an opinion on a comic book at a single point in time" that's all it is. Inconsistency still exists. Techniques like the Batman 11 incident are being developed - as I've used in analogy before CGC is a system and like any other system people will find the cracks and exploit the system. NDP is just one - it might be the most popular, currently the best cost effective method to increase a blue label grade and still make the method by which the grade was increased profitable - but it is not the only method out there.

 

I'm also not saying collecting High Grade is nuts. Not at all, some books will always be valuable, some books will always be rare in HG, or any grade. But the scarcity to premuim ratio has been extended out so far since the advent of CGC - I think the Emporer will become clothed sooner or later. Personally I can see clearly through the Plastic coating.

[Silver Surfer]

you will never be able to detect pressing and neither will a third party grader-why not accept it?

 

really-who cares??

 

what are you adding to the book-nothing

 

how can this be a form of restoration?

 

humidity can still penetrate even slabbed comics for crying out loud!

 

Please stop.

 

Ditto.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I wonder how many people that are reading this thread now plan to go through their collections for pressing candidates ....

[jbud73]

why should I stop BEYONDER -to passify you??

 

No he's asking you to stop because a few of your examples have been shown to be incorrect repeatedly in previous discussions. So as Golddust said, if you want to join in this particular discussion unfortunatley you must understand its history in order to contribute relevancy.

[garthgantu]

This is absolutely true. Someone should run an experiment. Take five mid-grade books with typical wear that might be susceptible to being removed by pressing. Then take five high grade books (9.0s or 8.5s) and send all ten to Matt Nelson for the press and resubmit. I would wager that in most of the cases, the mid-grade books will see a greater improvement than the high grade books. There just aren't that many 9.8 or 9.6 "candidates" that have non-color-breaking wear that you can eliminate via pressing.

 

Scott: Some of what you say seems to be borne out in the list of Church pedigree books that have undergone 'miraculous' improvements in grade - 4.0s turning into 8.0s, etc. However, there are far, far fewer of those examples on the list than there are of 9.0s becoming 9.6s and 9.2s becoming 9.4s or 9.6s. Now, this may be because the list is limited to Church books, and most of those books are still high grade.

 

But as I think about it, I have a hard time envisioning a stack of 4.0s or even 5.0s that don't have some fairly significant wear and/or creasing that involves color-breaking. After all, that's what brought the books down to 4.0 or 5.0 status in the first place. Seems like it would be hard to pass of a an otherwise VF 8.0 book if it has suspicious-looking color breaks where there ought to be creases..?

 

I still think the biggest opportunity is in taking 7.5s and 8.0s and bumping them up to 9.0, 9.2, 9.4 range. When you get down to 6.5 or 6.0 range, books usually have some defects that pressing probably won't fix in a way that looks 'normal' when all is said and done..?

[THE_BEYONDER]

This is absolutely true. Someone should run an experiment. Take five mid-grade books with typical wear that might be susceptible to being removed by pressing. Then take five high grade books (9.0s or 8.5s) and send all ten to Matt Nelson for the press and resubmit. I would wager that in most of the cases, the mid-grade books will see a greater improvement than the high grade books. There just aren't that many 9.8 or 9.6 "candidates" that have non-color-breaking wear that you can eliminate via pressing.

 

Scott: Some of what you say seems to be borne out in the list of Church pedigree books that have undergone 'miraculous' improvements in grade - 4.0s turning into 8.0s, etc. However, there are far, far fewer of those examples on the list than there are of 9.0s becoming 9.6s and 9.2s becoming 9.4s or 9.6s. Now, this may be because the list is limited to Church books, and most of those books are still high grade.

 

But as I think about it, I have a hard time envisioning a stack of 4.0s or even 5.0s that don't have some fairly significant wear and/or creasing that involves color-breaking. After all, that's what brought the books down to 4.0 or 5.0 status in the first place. Seems like it would be hard to pass of a an otherwise VF 8.0 book if it has suspicious-looking color breaks where there ought to be creases..?

 

I still think the biggest opportunity is in taking 7.5s and 8.0s and bumping them up to 9.0, 9.2, 9.4 range. When you get down to 6.5 or 6.0 range, books usually have some defects that pressing probably won't fix in a way that looks 'normal' when all is said and done..?

 

I see the 8.5-9.2 range being the best bet .

 

Non color-breaking creases on these books is what keeps them from being NM or above.

 

I don't really understand why people are thinking about mid-grade books as the most likely candidates.

 

What is it that usually keeps 9.4/9.6s from grading out 9.8 or better?

 

A rounded corner?

A non color-breaking spine stress?

A minor fold on the edge?

 

All the above can be removed through NDP.

[garthgantu]

My take on the situation, which is reflected in a few others' posts:

 

CGC – or more accurately, CCG – is moving from condoning pressing as an acceptable form of restoration, to actively promoting pressing and providing it as a ‘value-added’ service

 

CCG is making this service available only to a limited number of customers

 

CCG will not make the names of those customers available to the general public

 

CGCed books will now represent an 'uneven playing field' - only those sanctioned by CGC as being worthy will be allowed to have their books pressed under CGC's roof or at least, the adjoining roof at CCG HQ.

 

This is really starting to feel like a Microsoft move... "now that we've cornered the Web browser market, we can start dictating what is and isn't part of the basic Web surfing experience for the 92% of the public that uses our product..and in so doing, we'll find all sorts of new ways to make money!"

 

As I've said before, anytime you have a monopolistic situation, it's bad for the consumer and it's bad for everyone else - except the monopoly. Given that the federal government isn't likely to step in and stop CCG/CGC from pressing comics anytime soon, the only way to vote - and it's admittedly an indirect vote - is with your wallet.

[towards2112]

I'm one of the crowd that does see pressing, in the given context

of restoration, as OK ---> given the fact that it is disclosed.

I would much rather have a small spine roll professionally removed

rather than have an amatuer "three NYC phone books" job done

on it.

That being said, I have honestly never PURCHASED any books

that I thought were candidates for pressing. I've always bought

and sold at grade. Maybe I'm not sharp enough, or dishonest

enough to see the short term gain from pressing a book, passing

it off as un-pressed, and run the risk of ruining a reputation that

I worked hard to establish. Others may feel that the quick

gross profit is worth it, or maybe they don't realize the long

term consequences of their actions.

The restoration issue itself has become a wildcat over the last

15 to 20 years. Old school thought was that perhaps minor color

touches or pro-pressing was ok. I have a few PLOD's that I'm

proud to own because they are structurally more sound and

physically stable than any other copy I could afford. I'm also

pretty sure some of the raw DC's that I've had for upteen years

have been pressed. Too pretty and flat not to have been.

Kick it around. Good subject for a hot day outside.