Answer from CGC.........

[FFB]

I can't tell what's wrong with it aside from the spine stress, spine corner dings, and upper right corner, but if that's the wear you think you could get rid of with a press job, I think you would be both surprised and disappointed.

 

2 non-color breaking creases just above the top staple on spine (admitedly hard to see on scan). They can be pressed out very nicely and could up the comic at least 2 grades...

 

Jim

 

Are these two red arrows the spine stresses you're talking about? Because non-disassembly pressing isn't going to fix those. Everything else that I circled is a defect that NDP pressing also won't fix.

 

[FFB]

Opening this one up to the floor for people who think pressing 9.2s into 9.6s is easy: just for a fun exercise, go through your raw books and find some 8.5-9.2s that you think could be pressed up to a 9.6. The number will be a lot lower than you might suspect, because pretty much anything that breaks color will disqualify the book.

I think people who think 8.5s and 9.2s are easily pressed into 9.6s are out of their gourds, for the reasons you state. There are usually sufficient color-breaking creases and stressmarks in a 8.5 or 9.2 book to ever prevent it from becoming a 9.6, even if all the non-color breaking creases get pressed out.

 

However, there is one category of book that lends itself to pressing and where big gains in grade can be obtained. Namely, books where the color-breaking creases/stress occur where there is no color to be broken (e.g., back covers, books with white covers and books with nice fat white miswraps).

 

Color breaking stresses and creases are not completely removable with NDP pressing. They will always leave a mark behind because pressing doesn't recompact the paper fibers back into exactly the same shape they were before the damage occurred. The severity of a crease in a white area can be somewhat lessened, but the crease will still be quite visible. Maybe you remember one of those Mile High books discussed in the golden age forum about six months ago where someone had tried to press out a back cover crease that was in a white area? You could still totally see it.

[jbud73]

Uh oh Scott's got the teacher's red digital pen out - definitely time to go to sleep.

[tth2]

Color breaking stresses and creases are not completely removable with NDP pressing. They will always leave a mark behind because pressing doesn't recompact the paper fibers back into exactly the same shape they were before the damage occurred. The severity of a crease in a white area can be somewhat lessened, but the crease will still be quite visible. Maybe you remember one of those Mile High books discussed in the golden age forum about six months ago where someone had tried to press out a back cover crease that was in a white area? You could still totally see it.

Not completely removable, correct. But significantly smoothed out, so there is now a slight indentation rather than a sharp crease? Yes, and apparently that does seem to make a difference. I don't know if it was the MH book you're talking about, but in one of the resub/upgrades that has been discussed on these boards, I was amazed by how much more imperceptible a significant crease on the white back cover became after pressing. Granted I was looking at a scan and not the real book where I could hold it up to the light to see how smooth the back cover cover was, but if I had not seen the "before" picture I would never have noticed the remaining indentation post-pressing. That was the book that opened my eyes and made me realize that there are some defects that are ideal pressing candidates. Jeff's pressed book confirmed it.

 

But here I go again talking about pressing, when I keep trying to get us off pressing and onto forms of restoration that will get a PLOD...

[awe4one]

It's two non-color breaking creases (about 1/2 to 3/4 inch/I don't have the comic in front of me) from near the spine (I think the bottom arrow is the start of one) at a 45% angle. Pressing will eliminate these creases and greatly enhance the grade it'll get. The scan is also magnifying some of your other points that aren't really evident when handling the comic. I'll try to find the comic later and rescan to show clearer...

 

Also...I don't think we should be focusing on the 9.2 to 9.6 pressing examples. Only the "experts" will seriously be able to achieve this on any regular basis in my opinion. What'll probably happen is people, with various degrees of pressing knowledge, will submit for pressing (or try to do it themselves) comics they think can be improved. What you're left with a whole slew of badly pressed comics, pressed but unimproved comics (and isn't that going to be a b1itch), or a mass of 8.0 to 9.4s pressed comics flooding the market.

 

It's going to make those unpressed comics even more desirable in my opinion...

 

Jim

[nearmint]

If you truly believe there is nothing wrong with professional pressing, then why are you going about this covertly? If you think that the majority of collectors don't care a whit, then why are you doing this covertly? Why won't dealers admit to it? And why do I know we will never ever hear anyone admit to using Chris' services?

 

Amen...the way they're going about this smells to high heaven...

 

Jim

 

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a bad idea, too. But, I don't agree that they're going about this covertly. Steve came on here and told us it was going to happen. If by covertly you mean not revealing their client list, I don't know any company providing any kind of service that is willing to provide a client list.

[Red Hook]

Why not? If the service is above board then why not proclaim it to the heavens. That privacy thing is such a crock. Convenient. Who does it protect, and from what? I doubt there will be any testimonials on Chris' website. None.

[drice6900]

Why not? If the service is above board then why not proclaim it to the heavens. That privacy thing is such a crock. Convenient. Who does it protect, and from what? I doubt there will be any testimonials on Chris' website. None.

 

Because then your clients don't become targets for the competition. Further, private citizens should have the right to some privacy in any type of transaction. Oh course, it doesn't always work that way...

[nearmint]

That privacy thing is such a crock.

 

Red, you've made several good points in the last 24 hours, but you completely lose me here. Drice is absolutely correct, a customer expects privacy in any business transaction.

[drbanner]

Why not? If the service is above board then why not proclaim it to the heavens. That privacy thing is such a crock. Convenient. Who does it protect, and from what? I doubt there will be any testimonials on Chris' website. None.

 

Hmmmm...what would you propose?

[comicwiz]

I can't believe no one else has harped on this yet, so I'm going to. At least if the Chris Friesen press job is equally available to all, then those who want to do it are on equal footing. If Chris is indeed restricting his services to a select few, it puts everyone outside of those select few at a severe disadvantage in the hobby. THIS is the kind of thing that could make people who are on the fence about pressing fall to one side in a way that CGC does not want, and I think it needs to be reconsidered. If there is truly "nothing wrong" with what Chris Friesen is doing, then go all-out with it. Don't leave it in the shadows where people will get the impression that CGC and Friesen are saying one thing about the ethics of the arrangement yet thinking another.

 

Actually I've commented on this point at least twice in the past, but it I think it may have been overlooked and instead interpreted as heretical craziness or the rantings of a lunatic.

[awe4one]

Don't get me wrong, I think this is a bad idea, too. But, I don't agree that they're going about this covertly. Steve came on here and told us it was going to happen. If by covertly you mean not revealing their client list, I don't know any company providing any kind of service that is willing to provide a client list.

 

As far as I know Steve's announcement here, and actually it was Mark who said it first, is the only place the new service has been mentioned. And Steve said the official announcement would be the letters going to a select few. No mention whatsoever of an official announcement to comicdom...

 

I surely wouldn't call their actions to date as being entirely forthcoming...

 

Jim

[Red Hook]

That privacy thing is such a crock.

 

Red, you've made several good points in the last 24 hours, but you completely lose me here. Drice is absolutely correct, a customer expects privacy in any business transaction.

 

And where fall the rights of the customer who expects as much information about the book he is laying huge bucks down for? Where are his rights?

 

How about dealing with open competition by providing the best service, the most honest service and the best priced service. That's what competition is all about. When a corporation hires an advertising firm, does the firm hide the fact that the company is one of it's clients? No. It's the exact opposite. It's open competition. They take out ads in all the trades to proclaim the relationship. And if there is another firm that comes along and does better work, then the original ad agency has to respond to the challenge.

 

Say Chris has an agreement with a major dealer to press a selection of books. That dealer has got to know that Matt Nelson provides the service also. And there are others out there who offer the service too. It's no secret. But he chooses Chris because of reliablity, price, speed, etc. If Matt Nelson tried to raid Chris clients or vice versa, all heck would break loose.

 

On the other hand, this set up is perfect for the dealer who wants to give his books a makeover, pump up the grades and squeeze more money out of his flatties.

 

What happens when that privacy is used to as a cover for operations that at least a segment of the buying public has an issue with? What about the buyers right-to-know what it's laying it's money down for.

 

The privacy angle has been used to shield a number of activities, including resubs. Am I then to assume that there will be no traceable paperwork for any of Chris's work?

 

I think the right to privacy has to be balanced with the public's right to know if the book they are buying has been pressed.

 

One move in the right direction would be a registry that listed what books Chris worked on. If his work is so good, and pressing is GOOD for books, it would allay suspicion that the book had been pressed improperly. I hate this atmosphere of stealth. I'm calling for complete openness, and I send that out to Heritage, CGC, the restoration experts and the big dealers that post here on the boards. You're being so incredibly short sighted. Show some balls and some integrity.

 

I won't be holding my breath.

[awe4one]

Why not? If the service is above board then why not proclaim it to the heavens. That privacy thing is such a crock. Convenient. Who does it protect, and from what? I doubt there will be any testimonials on Chris' website. None.

 

Hmmmm...what would you propose?

 

I propose they make the client list public as well. I agree with Red...who the hell are they trying to protect them from? These are comics for god's sake not stock options. Is CGC afraid that PGX will snatch these clients away?

 

Collectors are evidently divided on this issue and "I" would like to know who is using the service or not. If it's OK to press, who cares?

 

Jim

[OldGuy]

That privacy thing is such a crock.

 

Red, you've made several good points in the last 24 hours, but you completely lose me here. Drice is absolutely correct, a customer expects privacy in any business transaction.

 

And where fall the rights of the customer who expects as much information about the book he is laying huge bucks down for? Where are his rights?

 

He has the right to not buy the book. I actually agree with you Brad, just playing Devils advocate.

[Red Hook]

And OG..... I think a lot of buyers are going to think twice or three times about buying a suspicious book. They've been so busy trying to figure out how to carve up the fatted calf, they forgot they have to nuture the trust and accessibility of the hobby for future generations.

 

I do think prices are going to dip. Awareness about these practices is going to continue to increase and eventually it will spread among the lower tiers of collectors. As long as I am involved with collecting I am certainly going to do my best to push for more consumer rights in the hobby.

 

Go back and look at some of the early threads about pressing on the boards, when the big debate was whether it was even a widespread practice. Now project another year or two ahead. It's not going to be pretty. And I am really sorry about that.

[nearmint]

Is CGC afraid that PGX will snatch these clients away?

 

No, but CCG might be afraid that Heft or Nelson will steal these clients away. It's standard practice for companies not to reveal their client lists, for their own protection, and to proctect their clients' privacy.

[awe4one]

No, but CCG might be afraid that Heft or Nelson will steal these clients away. It's standard practice for companies not to reveal their client lists, for their own protection, and to proctect their clients' privacy.

 

Heft and Nelsen will know who's submiting and who's not. This is a small hobby...they'll find out in short order. People make it out that confidentiality of this nature is some closely kept secret that's vital for the hobby (or CGC). Frankly, "secrets" of this type only serve to screw the collector vs. protecting any client...

 

Jim

[comicwiz]

The thing is, none of us knows why comicwiz's book warped in the slab. It's possible that it wasn't pressed at all and just warped for some other reason such as humidity. Or perhaps the warping was the result of the way the inner well film warps in some holders? We don't know. comicwiz didn't press that book though, so he's only guessing about reversion. Every professional I've spoken to says that reversion is not a problem if the pressing is done correctly.

 

Just to elaborate on this point, it was 3 books which all came from the same source. I had purchased a complete (or near complete -- can't recall if I was missing a few issues) run of Byrne X-Men and only those 3 books warped. The books ranged between 9.0 - 9.6 and they were purchased already CGC graded. The books were stored (and still are) in a climate controlled room in a cedar chest which houses over 650 slabs. The books range from GA to BA, and none of the books in that chest exhibit any warping.

 

I could accept the warped cell/film inner well theory in some cases, but in this case, my initial hunch that these books may have originally come from some sort of warehouse find were confirmed much later by the person I had purchased them from. According to this person, the dealer he had originally bought the books from had sold them to him bagged and boarded, and when he examined them before submitting the books, he noticed that on those three particular issue, there was warping at the top edge. He decided to opt for pressing the warping out as the books exhibited no other defect and were otherwise NM candidates. The fact that they reversed more than likely has to do with with the fact that the person performing the work was an amateur.

 

And I'll agree that this is far from being enough evidence to point to any epidemic of NDP books reverting, however the thing that has concerned me most about my experience is the following; i) these books were purchased now nearly 4 years ago and the warping didn't start to reveal itself until 2 years after I purchased them; ii) that the person resorted to basement pressing because either there weren't any services offering this type of work or the return on pressing a Byrne X-Men book just couldn't justify the expense of having it done professionally; and iii) that the problems with the books were not disclosed at the time of sale. Points ii) and iii) being the most troubling because although we do have options today as opposed to 4 years ago with regard to choosing pro's to do the work, the cost to have the work performed sometimes doesn't justify the necessity for certain books, and impacts the profit margin on the flip.

 

Between shipping the book to a secret location, having the book evaluated, and either returned (if its not press-worthy or if the grade increase potential is non-existent) or the book is pressed, and sent back to the person or directly to CGC HQ, the costs between pressing and grading could add up. If the trend is that the sellers with the most insiatable appetite for profit would sooner engage in amatuer pressing methods as opposed to having the work performed by a pro to garner the most return on the flip, then the issue of reverting may well be a bigger concern than most people are willing to accept. In such a case, the burden of proof is not found in any effort to collect information of specific examples of books reverting (because by the time the info is collected the sellers made off with the money) but rather that such sellers ought to be compelled to engage in full disclosure.

[nearmint]

No, but CCG might be afraid that Heft or Nelson will steal these clients away. It's standard practice for companies not to reveal their client lists, for their own protection, and to proctect their clients' privacy.

 

Heft and Nelsen will know who's submiting and who's not. This is a small hobby...they'll find out in short order. People make it out that confidentiality of this nature is some closely kept secret that's vital for the hobby (or CGC). Frankly, "secrets" of this type only serve to screw the collector vs. protecting any client...

 

Jim

 

Jim, that's easy to say, but other than your word, I have no reason to believe it's true. Not that it matters, while I agree that it's convenient for CCG not to reveal their client list, it doesn't change the fact that it's standard practice for companies not to do so.