Answer from CGC.........

[jbud73]

Well there is also the spin off to CGC that more books will potentially grade higher and therefore more grading fees are assessed. Plus if they follow the coin model to the letter, Chris' service may expand to other forms of restoration.

[Darthdiesel]

and pretty grown-up and intelligent conversations so far - i mean some REALLY good stuff in here, so let's not start getting pissy boys...............

 

we have to try and keep open minds and just agree to disagree at some point - but no flaming, please??

 

I'm surprised at the continued intelligent discourse as well. We were well into a massive flame war by this time last go around...

 

Jim

 

Packing your pressed MJs now...

[awe4one]

Packing your pressed MJs now...

 

Make sure you keep them away from humidity...wouldn't want them to revert...

 

Seriously though...I go to bed and wake up to analogies to gay bashing? That's rich...you're smarter than that FFB. At least come up with an analogy that fits the situation better or you end up underminding the point you're trying to make...

 

Jim

[lou_fine]

And where fall the rights of the customer who expects as much information about the book he is laying huge bucks down for? Where are his rights?

 

On the other hand, this set up is perfect for the dealer who wants to give his books a makeover, pump up the grades and squeeze more money out of his flatties.

 

What happens when that privacy is used to as a cover for operations that at least a segment of the buying public has an issue with? What about the buyers right-to-know what it's laying it's money down for.

 

The privacy angle has been used to shield a number of activities, including resubs. Am I then to assume that there will be no traceable paperwork for any of Chris's work?

 

I think the right to privacy has to be balanced with the public's right to know if the book they are buying has been pressed.

 

One move in the right direction would be a registry that listed what books Chris worked on. If his work is so good, and pressing is GOOD for books, it would allay suspicion that the book had been pressed improperly. I hate this atmosphere of stealth. I'm calling for complete openness, and I send that out to Heritage, CGC, the restoration experts and the big dealers that post here on the boards. You're being so incredibly short sighted. Show some balls and some integrity.

 

I won't be holding my breath.

 

Red;

 

A lot of good points here.

 

Are you saying that we won't be seeing ads from the new service similar to the ads we've been seeing from CGC over the years? I always loved to read the testimonials from the dealers and collectors expounding on the virtues of having their books go through the CGC service. None of these wonderful ads from the new service.......oh, woe is me.

 

Similarly, are you saying that the new service will not be running side by side ads showing an unpressed 9.2 CGC graded book fetching only a paltry $1,000 next to the exact same newly improved pressed 9.6 CGC graded book fetching the amazing sum of $10,000? Oh.......double woe is me.

 

Are you also saying the new service will not be providing us with a population census data for all the pressed books going through Chris's service so we can keep track of exactly what's being pressed? No Pressing Registry so dealers and collectors can show off their most improved and most juiced up books? Oh.......triple woe is me.

 

Are you saying that GPAnalysis will not be providing us with instantaneous stats on the pressed books as they are moving through the marketplace so that investors and speculators can take the pulse of the pressed marketplace at any point in time? Oh......quadruple woe is me.

 

Sounds like we are moving back to what Steve B. calls the dark dark days prior to CGC when unscrupulous dealers were foisting books with undisclosed restoration to unsuspecting collectors. Steve has always stated that with the advent of CGC, the marketplace has become a much safer place to purchase books because CGC provides an environment in which the collector knows exactly what he is putting his hard earned dollars on.

 

And as I have stated many times before in the past, much to the chagrin of virtually all posters here........the advent of CGC and their policy on pressing has actually made the current marketplace a more dangerous place to purchase books in comparison to the pre-CGC days. The increased multiples being paid today for debatable 0.2 or 0.4 increases in grade has resulted in a situation where the possibility of buying a pressed (i.e. restored) book hiding behind a blue label is sustantially higher than the pre-CGC days when it was just not worthwhile to perform exclusive pressing without the other associated and more detectable restoration work also being done.

 

Hate to say that I told you so, but those dark dark pre-CGC days are going to look pretty bright compared to what's coming down the pipeline.

[sterlingcomics]

Can't read this [#@$%!!!] from all of the polluting [#@$%!!!] comments.

 

Pot, meet kettle.

 

You took my bait

[jbud73]

And where fall the rights of the customer who expects as much information about the book he is laying huge bucks down for? Where are his rights?

 

On the other hand, this set up is perfect for the dealer who wants to give his books a makeover, pump up the grades and squeeze more money out of his flatties.

 

What happens when that privacy is used to as a cover for operations that at least a segment of the buying public has an issue with? What about the buyers right-to-know what it's laying it's money down for.

 

The privacy angle has been used to shield a number of activities, including resubs. Am I then to assume that there will be no traceable paperwork for any of Chris's work?

 

I think the right to privacy has to be balanced with the public's right to know if the book they are buying has been pressed.

 

One move in the right direction would be a registry that listed what books Chris worked on. If his work is so good, and pressing is GOOD for books, it would allay suspicion that the book had been pressed improperly. I hate this atmosphere of stealth. I'm calling for complete openness, and I send that out to Heritage, CGC, the restoration experts and the big dealers that post here on the boards. You're being so incredibly short sighted. Show some balls and some integrity.

 

I won't be holding my breath.

 

Red;

 

A lot of good points here.

 

Are you saying that we won't be seeing ads from the new service similar to the ads we've been seeing from CGC over the years? I always loved to read the testimonials from the dealers and collectors expounding on the virtues of having their books go through the CGC service. None of these wonderful ads from the new service.......oh, woe is me.

 

Similarly, are you saying that the new service will not be running side by side ads showing an unpressed 9.2 CGC graded book fetching only a paltry $1,000 next to the exact same newly improved pressed 9.6 CGC graded book fetching the amazing sum of $10,000? Oh.......double woe is me.

 

Are you also saying the new service will not be providing us with a population census data for all the pressed books going through Chris's service so we can keep track of exactly what's being pressed? No Pressing Registry so dealers and collectors can show off their most improved and most juiced up books? Oh.......triple woe is me.

 

Are you saying that GPAnalysis will not be providing us with instantaneous stats on the pressed books as they are moving through the marketplace so that investors and speculators can take the pulse of the pressed marketplace at any point in time? Oh......quadruple woe is me.

 

Sounds like we are moving back to what Steve B. calls the dark dark days prior to CGC when unscrupulous dealers were foisting books with undisclosed restoration to unsuspecting collectors. Steve has always stated that with the advent of CGC, the marketplace has become a much safer place to purchase books because CGC provides an environment in which the collector knows exactly what he is putting his hard earned dollars on.

 

And as I have stated many times before in the past, much to the chagrin of virtually all posters here........the advent of CGC and their policy on pressing has actually made the current marketplace a more dangerous place to purchase books in comparison to the pre-CGC days. The increased multiples being paid today for debatable 0.2 or 0.4 increases in grade has resulted in a situation where the possibility of buying a pressed (i.e. restored) book hiding behind a blue label is sustantially higher than the pre-CGC days when it was just not worthwhile to perform exclusive pressing without the other associated and more detectable restoration work also being done.

 

Hate to say that I told you so, but those dark dark pre-CGC days are going to look pretty bright compared to what's coming down the pipeline.

 

I think these two quotes are a nice summary articulation of some of the common viewpoints being expressed on this subject. to both posters.

[Aman619]

And as I have stated many times before in the past, much to the chagrin of virtually all posters here........the advent of CGC and their policy on pressing has actually made the current marketplace a more dangerous place to purchase books in comparison to the pre-CGC days. The increased multiples being paid today for debatable 0.2 or 0.4 increases in grade has resulted in a situation where the possibility of buying a pressed (i.e. restored) book hiding behind a blue label is sustantially higher than the pre-CGC days when it was just not worthwhile to perform exclusive pressing without the other associated and more detectable restoration work also being done.

 

Hate to say that I told you so, but those dark dark pre-CGC days are going to look pretty bright compared to what's coming down the pipeline.

 

great post Lou. CGC is ushering a new Dark Age to replace the one they set out to eliminate.

 

CGC should IMO be trying harder to detect this pressing for profit restoration, and if impossible, staying neutral on the subject - - -- NOT going into business themselves doing it. It may be "smart business" (though as I said earlier I cant see how profitable it could be unless they take the next logical step and buy and grade their OWN books!) to expand into new areas, CGC seems to want to us all to go ahead and improve all our books that can be pressed, without thinking long term of the implications of it.

 

Just how does incentifying undisclosed and undetectable pressing HELP collectors or the hobby? SOmeone who is NOT against this development please answer that for me???

[FFB]

And where fall the rights of the customer who expects as much information about the book he is laying huge bucks down for? Where are his rights?

 

On the other hand, this set up is perfect for the dealer who wants to give his books a makeover, pump up the grades and squeeze more money out of his flatties.

 

What happens when that privacy is used to as a cover for operations that at least a segment of the buying public has an issue with? What about the buyers right-to-know what it's laying it's money down for.

 

The privacy angle has been used to shield a number of activities, including resubs. Am I then to assume that there will be no traceable paperwork for any of Chris's work?

 

I think the right to privacy has to be balanced with the public's right to know if the book they are buying has been pressed.

 

One move in the right direction would be a registry that listed what books Chris worked on. If his work is so good, and pressing is GOOD for books, it would allay suspicion that the book had been pressed improperly. I hate this atmosphere of stealth. I'm calling for complete openness, and I send that out to Heritage, CGC, the restoration experts and the big dealers that post here on the boards. You're being so incredibly short sighted. Show some balls and some integrity.

 

I won't be holding my breath.

 

Red;

 

A lot of good points here.

 

Are you saying that we won't be seeing ads from the new service similar to the ads we've been seeing from CGC over the years? I always loved to read the testimonials from the dealers and collectors expounding on the virtues of having their books go through the CGC service. None of these wonderful ads from the new service.......oh, woe is me.

 

Similarly, are you saying that the new service will not be running side by side ads showing an unpressed 9.2 CGC graded book fetching only a paltry $1,000 next to the exact same newly improved pressed 9.6 CGC graded book fetching the amazing sum of $10,000? Oh.......double woe is me.

 

Are you also saying the new service will not be providing us with a population census data for all the pressed books going through Chris's service so we can keep track of exactly what's being pressed? No Pressing Registry so dealers and collectors can show off their most improved and most juiced up books? Oh.......triple woe is me.

 

Are you saying that GPAnalysis will not be providing us with instantaneous stats on the pressed books as they are moving through the marketplace so that investors and speculators can take the pulse of the pressed marketplace at any point in time? Oh......quadruple woe is me.

 

Sounds like we are moving back to what Steve B. calls the dark dark days prior to CGC when unscrupulous dealers were foisting books with undisclosed restoration to unsuspecting collectors. Steve has always stated that with the advent of CGC, the marketplace has become a much safer place to purchase books because CGC provides an environment in which the collector knows exactly what he is putting his hard earned dollars on.

 

And as I have stated many times before in the past, much to the chagrin of virtually all posters here........the advent of CGC and their policy on pressing has actually made the current marketplace a more dangerous place to purchase books in comparison to the pre-CGC days. The increased multiples being paid today for debatable 0.2 or 0.4 increases in grade has resulted in a situation where the possibility of buying a pressed (i.e. restored) book hiding behind a blue label is sustantially higher than the pre-CGC days when it was just not worthwhile to perform exclusive pressing without the other associated and more detectable restoration work also being done.

 

Hate to say that I told you so, but those dark dark pre-CGC days are going to look pretty bright compared to what's coming down the pipeline.

 

The problem I have with this is twofold:

 

1) This entire thing assumes that a "pressed book" is a "bad book."

 

2) This entire thing assumes that a 10X (or more) price differential between a 9.4 and a 9.8 is a "good thing" that has "helped the hobby."

[FFB]

Packing your pressed MJs now...

 

Make sure you keep them away from humidity...wouldn't want them to revert...

 

Seriously though...I go to bed and wake up to analogies to gay bashing? That's rich...you're smarter than that FFB. At least come up with an analogy that fits the situation better or you end up underminding the point you're trying to make...

 

Jim

 

Thanks Jim, although I don't need the backhanded compliment from you. I think the analogy is fine, and frankly, I didn't expect you or any of the other anti-pressers to see eye to eye with me on this. Whether you want to accept the analogy as I intended it or nitpick because you have a special feeling about gay bashing, the point is that I was answering a rhetorical question someone asked about why the pressers don't come right out and tell everyone that they're pressing. The answer seemed obvious to me, but I thought I'd say it anyway since I don't expect the dealers who have been accused of pressing to come here and explain it.

 

As I said, perhaps it's because even if they don't think there's anything wrong with it, they know that there is a vocal group of opponents waiting to lynch them and who are not really in a position to listen to any discussions because they've already made up their minds. Tell me I'm wrong about this. You don't like the gay analogy? Probably because you know it fits to a T on the one element of the analogy that is important -- that even if the accused doesn't think he's doing anything wrong, there is still a vocal group of people who can't wait to tear into him.

 

Seriously, you guys have no solution to this "huge problem" as you've characterized it, other than this circle jerk I'm seeing where you moan about greed and evil dealers, tell each other how great your posts are, and hope that somehow the moaning is going to change things. How is the moaning and patting on the back going to change anything? What can be done about this "huge problem" that all ten of you guys care about? Maybe you should write to CBG and Wizard and get them to print an article. If it turns out that a large portion of the hobby agrees with you and if the public outcry demonstrates that, perhaps then you'll get somewhere. Until then, you're just a few guys person_without_enough_empathyhing on the internet and you're going to accomplish about as much as the fanboys did when they person_without_enough_empathyhed about the costumes in the X-Men movie.

[Aman619]

dude, you live in San Franciso and youre talking about gays still in the closet??? Honey -- theres less and less of that anymore. The only gays hidong or afraid to mention their sexuality are gays who are still living as straights and down low on the side. Gays dont have to tell you theyre gay because they live a gay lifestyle freely.

 

or is this just another a nitpick of your analogy???

[tth2]

The problem I have with this is...

 

This entire thing assumes that a 10X (or more) price differential between a 9.4 and a 9.8 is a "good thing" that has "helped the hobby."

Of course it's a good thing, even from the buyer's perspective. High prices drive supply. I've been collecting since the mid-1970s and a HG collector since the early 1990s. I can't speak about GA, but the amount of ultra-HG SA that has been available in the last 5 years dwarfs what was available before. Some of this is attributable to the internet, but most of it is attributable to the high prices on offer.

[FFB]

And as I have stated many times before in the past, much to the chagrin of virtually all posters here........the advent of CGC and their policy on pressing has actually made the current marketplace a more dangerous place to purchase books in comparison to the pre-CGC days. The increased multiples being paid today for debatable 0.2 or 0.4 increases in grade has resulted in a situation where the possibility of buying a pressed (i.e. restored) book hiding behind a blue label is sustantially higher than the pre-CGC days when it was just not worthwhile to perform exclusive pressing without the other associated and more detectable restoration work also being done.

 

Hate to say that I told you so, but those dark dark pre-CGC days are going to look pretty bright compared to what's coming down the pipeline.

 

great post Lou. CGC is ushering a new Dark Age to replace the one they set out to eliminate.

 

CGC should IMO be trying harder to detect this pressing for profit restoration, and if impossible, staying neutral on the subject - - -- NOT going into business themselves doing it. It may be "smart business" (though as I said earlier I cant see how profitable it could be unless they take the next logical step and buy and grade their OWN books!) to expand into new areas, CGC seems to want to us all to go ahead and improve all our books that can be pressed, without thinking long term of the implications of it.

 

Just how does incentifying undisclosed and undetectable pressing HELP collectors or the hobby? SOmeone who is NOT against this development please answer that for me???

 

How about this -- it increases the supply of high-mid-grade (6.0-8.5) and low-high-grade (8.5 to 9.4) books for sale and makes them more affordable.

 

OH NO!!!! We're DOOMED!!!!!

[Aman619]

helluva way to increase supply, with ersatz copies hot (you guessed it) off the presses!!!

[FFB]

The problem I have with this is...

 

This entire thing assumes that a 10X (or more) price differential between a 9.4 and a 9.8 is a "good thing" that has "helped the hobby."

Of course it's a good thing, even from the buyer's perspective. High prices drive supply. I've been collecting since the mid-1970s and a HG collector since the early 1990s. I can't speak about GA, but the amount of ultra-HG SA that has been available in the last 5 years dwarfs what was available before. Some of this is attributable to the internet, but most of it is attributable to the high prices on offer.

 

I thought pressing drove the supply of high grade books.

 

You can't have it both ways.

[FFB]

helluva way to increase supply, with ersatz copies hot (you guessed it) off the presses!!!

 

They aren't ersatz copies. You can spin that line of bullshiit all you want, but the fact is that a high grade pressed copy was already a very nice copy before it got pressed.

[tth2]

The problem I have with this is...

 

This entire thing assumes that a 10X (or more) price differential between a 9.4 and a 9.8 is a "good thing" that has "helped the hobby."

Of course it's a good thing, even from the buyer's perspective. High prices drive supply. I've been collecting since the mid-1970s and a HG collector since the early 1990s. I can't speak about GA, but the amount of ultra-HG SA that has been available in the last 5 years dwarfs what was available before. Some of this is attributable to the internet, but most of it is attributable to the high prices on offer.

 

I thought pressing drove the supply of high grade books.

 

You can't have it both ways.

You must have me confused with all the newbies who think that every book is just one press away from being a 9.6.

[FFB]

The problem I have with this is...

 

This entire thing assumes that a 10X (or more) price differential between a 9.4 and a 9.8 is a "good thing" that has "helped the hobby."

Of course it's a good thing, even from the buyer's perspective. High prices drive supply. I've been collecting since the mid-1970s and a HG collector since the early 1990s. I can't speak about GA, but the amount of ultra-HG SA that has been available in the last 5 years dwarfs what was available before. Some of this is attributable to the internet, but most of it is attributable to the high prices on offer.

 

I thought pressing drove the supply of high grade books.

 

You can't have it both ways.

You must have me confused with all the newbies who think that every book is just one press away from being a 9.6.

 

Sorry Tim.

 

And it ain't just the newbies. There are some very knowledgeable people here with some very misinformed notions of just exactly what you can do to a book with a press job.

[Aman619]

helluva way to increase supply, with ersatz copies hot (you guessed it) off the presses!!!

 

They aren't ersatz copies. You can spin that line of bullshiit all you want, but the fact is that a high grade pressed copy was already a very nice copy before it got pressed.

 

so why press it??? aside from the money. that argument makes no sense.

[Aman619]

and you should recuse yourself at this point FFB since you no longer collect HG slabs anyway, right?

[FFB]

and you should recuse yourself at this point FFB since you no longer collect HG slabs anyway, right?

 

What's the matter, Aman? Not liking the fact that there's someone who isn't sitting here telling you how great your silly anti-pressing posts are?

 

And what difference does slabbed vs. unslabbed make, smarty pants? You think they're pressing books while in the slabs? Or that every book that's pressed is immediately sealed in a slab?