Answer from CGC.........

[Aman619]

heck... Steve was a heavy duty collector pre-CGC. Somehow I dont think he was an enhusiastic collector of pressed books! Does anyone else?

[FFB]

heck... Steve was a heavy duty collector pre-CGC. Somehow I dont think he was an enhusiastic collector of pressed books! Does anyone else?

 

I think he has said several times before that he owned pressed books and did not care that they had been pressed.

[awe4one]

I think he has said several times before that he owned pressed books and did not care that they had been pressed.

 

Just because he didn't care doesn't mean everyone else should believe that or follow his lead...

 

Jim

[FFB]

I think he has said several times before that he owned pressed books and did not care that they had been pressed.

 

Just because he didn't care doesn't mean everyone else should believe that or follow his lead...

 

Jim

 

True, but I was answering Aman's question -- not suggesting that Steve's personal collecting beliefs should dictate those of every other member of the hobby.

[awe4one]

I have no objection to Friesen starting his own company outside of the CCG umbrella. If people are going to press books (and they ARE going to press books) I would prefer that the treatment be done by someone who is trained and well-versed in the process so that the books are not harmed.

 

Basically, with some tangent caveats, I agree...

 

Jim

[FFB]

I have no objection to Friesen starting his own company outside of the CCG umbrella. If people are going to press books (and they ARE going to press books) I would prefer that the treatment be done by someone who is trained and well-versed in the process so that the books are not harmed.

 

Basically, with some tangent caveats, I agree...

 

Jim

 

[Aman619]

As for CGC, pressing was going on before CGC got here and it was going on before Friesen decided to start this company. It would have continued even if Friesen were not starting his company. All that CCG is doing now is trying to capture some of the pressing dollars that would be going elsewhere.

 

Cut and dried...Official grading and restoration companies shouldn't be working under the same umbrella due to conflict of interest questions.

 

What's more important? Keeping your grading company's integrity, it's most important attribute, unquestioned? Or finance a pressing service that immediately cast a cloud over said successful grading company and seriously compromises their integrity?

 

Going after the money isn't always the best option...

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

I hope you don't read what I wrote as a wholesale approval of CCG sponsoring Friesen's venture. As I said before when the topic originally came up, I think that tying the two companies together is a bad idea and does present a conflict of interest.

 

I have no objection to Friesen starting his own company outside of the CCG umbrella. If people are going to press books (and they ARE going to press books) I would prefer that the treatment be done by someone who is trained and well-versed in the process so that the books are not harmed.

 

hey, better check with your ISP or systems administrator, FFB, cause these last 2 posts definitely were written by a different person than the one posting lately on this subject. Cause these make sense, and add up to agreeing that CGCs move is wrong. Except the solution they suggest isnt more grousing and complaining hoping to get action by CGC, but total acceptance of a bad situation.

 

Even if CGC just goes ahead with their plans (which I am sure they will) I cant see why you could so strongly believe CGC is wrong here but would be cool with it, and just throw up your hands in defeat. You may be look smart later on when you are right and they ignore us and the world doesnt end, if thats all you want fine. Some of us dont want to encourage CGC in this direction by acquiescing to this stupid move... even if we fail in our efforts to force CGC to change the path they are on.

[Aman619]

heck... Steve was a heavy duty collector pre-CGC. Somehow I dont think he was an enhusiastic collector of pressed books! Does anyone else?

 

I think he has said several times before that he owned pressed books and did not care that they had been pressed.

 

thats not the Stevie Borock I remember.

obviously he said that post CGC, and maybe even believed it when he posted it. Steve was like the rest of us shunning all kinds of restoration (including pressing) if it was presented to us as having been done.

 

cripes, the only place pressing is accepted is at CGC, and by extension, anyone who buys and collects slabs with the resto detection skills CGC has provided the hobby. And to bring this discussion back 18 months when we all first became concerned about it, it was the discovery that NDP was NOT something the blue labels of safety were necessarily protecting us from. Which was a nasty surprise to all of us who werent then actively pressing the books into liquid blue labels for profits!!!

[FFB]

hey, better check with your ISP or systems administrator, FFB, cause these last 2 posts definitely were written by a different person than the one posting lately on this subject. Cause these make sense, and add up to agreeing that CGCs move is wrong. Except the solution they suggest isnt more grousing and complaining hoping to get action by CGC, but total acceptance of a bad situation.

 

See Aman, this is exactly the kind of smartassed comment that I am talking about from you. This isn't necessary.

 

Even if CGC just goes ahead with their plans (which I am sure they will) I cant see why you could so strongly believe CGC is wrong here but would be cool with it, and just throw up your hands in defeat. You may be look smart later on when you are right and they ignore us and the world doesnt end, if thats all you want fine. Some of us dont want to encourage CGC in this direction by acquiescing to this stupid move... even if we fail in our efforts to force CGC to change the path they are on.

 

I don't view this as throwing up my hands in defeat because that presumes that I am waging some kind of a battle here. I prefer to call it "acceptance." I don't like the conflict of interest presented by the arrangement, but I am not going to let it ruin my enjoyment of the hobby, nor am I going to act like Chicken Little and proclaim that the sky is falling just because Friesen will be pressing books under the CCG umbrella instead of on his own in a wholly separate enterprise. Like you say, I don't think that this move will have a huge impact on the hobby. I think we'll see a lot of initial blustering and complaining by a few, and that eventually the complaints will subside and it'll be business as usual for all concerned. And I'll still buy, read, and enjoy my comics along the way. So will you and everyone else in this thread.

[garthgantu]

[

hey, better check with your ISP or systems administrator, FFB, cause these last 2 posts definitely were written by a different person than the one posting lately on this subject.

 

I had the same thought... maybe Scott's been having a bad legal week? Regardless, I'm glad to have the less vitriolic, more reasoned Scott back

 

Setting aside the issues of whether pressing is resto, and whether CCG should have a pressing service under the same "roof" (literally or figuratively), I keep coming back to the point of giving access to this new service only to 'select' customers. Isn't this akin to Microsoft saying "only those businesses who purchase 10,000 or more copies of Windows each time we rev the OS can have access to the new hard drive optimizer we're rolling out next week" ? Sure, you can get a drive optimizer elsewhere, but who's to say it will be as 'compatible' with Windows as the official Microsoft version?

 

CGC has stated that some % of pressing jobs are less than professional and result in the book receiving a less-than-optimal grade - that CGC will downgrade for a mediocre press job. Now CGC's lead restoration detective is going into the pressing biz. Presumably, his will be the best, or among the best, pressing services available. Anyone other than the 'elite' customers who have access to this 'in-house' pressing service will be forced to seek pressing services elsewhere, and just hope that the service they're using is of high quality.

 

There's just so much conflict of interest in this equation, it makes my head spin.

[FFB]

heck... Steve was a heavy duty collector pre-CGC. Somehow I dont think he was an enhusiastic collector of pressed books! Does anyone else?

 

I think he has said several times before that he owned pressed books and did not care that they had been pressed.

 

thats not the Stevie Borock I remember.

obviously he said that post CGC, and maybe even believed it when he posted it. Steve was like the rest of us shunning all kinds of restoration (including pressing) if it was presented to us as having been done.

 

You're right, we do remember different "pre-CGC" Steve Borocks. The pre-CGC Steve Borock I remember was quite proud of having paid a record cash price for the Edgar Church More Fun #52, fully knowing that it had color touch. The "pre-CGC" Steve Borock you remember as "shunning all kinds of restoration" is a figment of your imagination.

 

cripes, the only place pressing is accepted is at CGC, and by extension, anyone who buys and collects slabs with the resto detection skills CGC has provided the hobby. And to bring this discussion back 18 months when we all first became concerned about it, it was the discovery that NDP was NOT something the blue labels of safety were necessarily protecting us from. Which was a nasty surprise to all of us who werent then actively pressing the books into liquid blue labels for profits!!!

 

This simply isn't true. You are acting like everyone in the hobby except CGC hates pressing and that is just plain wrong.

[FFB]

[

hey, better check with your ISP or systems administrator, FFB, cause these last 2 posts definitely were written by a different person than the one posting lately on this subject.

 

I had the same thought... maybe Scott's been having a bad legal week? Regardless, I'm glad to have the less vitriolic, more reasoned Scott back

 

Thanks for your "concern," Garth, but my week has been fine. Perhaps the reason my prior posts rub you the wrong way is because I'm not agreeing with everything that you are saying? I have been no more or less vitriolic than any of the other main participants in this discussion.

 

Setting aside the issues of whether pressing is resto, and whether CCG should have a pressing service under the same "roof" (literally or figuratively), I keep coming back to the point of giving access to this new service only to 'select' customers. Isn't this akin to Microsoft saying "only those businesses who purchase 10,000 or more copies of Windows each time we rev the OS can have access to the new hard drive optimizer we're rolling out next week" ? Sure, you can get a drive optimizer elsewhere, but who's to say it will be as 'compatible' with Windows as the official Microsoft version?

 

CGC has stated that some % of pressing jobs are less than professional and result in the book receiving a less-than-optimal grade - that CGC will downgrade for a mediocre press job. Now CGC's lead restoration detective is going into the pressing biz. Presumably, his will be the best, or among the best, pressing services available. Anyone other than the 'elite' customers who have access to this 'in-house' pressing service will be forced to seek pressing services elsewhere, and just hope that the service they're using is of high quality.

 

There's just so much conflict of interest in this equation, it makes my head spin.

 

I agree, and I made this exact point about 20 pages ago.

[Aman619]

hey, better check with your ISP or systems administrator, FFB, cause these last 2 posts definitely were written by a different person than the one posting lately on this subject. Cause these make sense, and add up to agreeing that CGCs move is wrong. Except the solution they suggest isnt more grousing and complaining hoping to get action by CGC, but total acceptance of a bad situation.

 

See Aman, this is exactly the kind of smartassed comment that I am talking about from you. This isn't necessary.

 

oh, so who's being a thin skinned martyr now? You dont think you phrase stuff like that too? And when you do, you call people names, although in a non threatening way. I was trying to be humorous with it, as opposed to nasty which is how many of your recent posts come across. Its not much fun to be on the receiving end is it?

 

I think Im the lastguy here to throw down in a hissy fit/shouting match flame war. (maybe Im wrong...) But the last thing I want is to take this board so seriously that anything I say or is said to me boils over into real life where I "hate" someone cause we had an internet fight that got out of control, or avoid someone at a convention as a result. How pathetic would THAT be?? Thats someplace I definitely dont wanna go.

 

So Im always backing off when the heat rises, making a joke etc. But I just got tired of you lately shouting down on many of us and thought Id finally say something about it. I hope you see it for what it is. See how Im making nice? And I dint once call you an [#@$%!!!]!

[jbud73]

Andy,

 

The moralist in me agrees with you 100%.

 

The realist in me says "OK, but now what?"

 

In the end, it comes down to one of two choices, if professional pressing is in most cases truly undetectable and is going to continue to occur: (a) leave the hobby in digust, or (b) accept that pressing is a part of the hobby and try to enjoy the hobby anyway. I like collecting comics, so I choose (b).

 

If you read my initial posts on pressing from months ago, I was saying a lot of the same things that many of you are. As I have spent more and more time thinking about it, I have resigned myself to the belief that pressing is here to stay, that it is in most cases undetectable if done right, and ultimately, it is just not worth worrying about since there doesn't seem to be anything that can be done about it.

 

I firmly believe that pressing is a form of restoration, just like I firmly believe that dry cleaning is a form of restoration. (And dry cleaning is easier to detect, by the way, so where is the outcry about dry cleaning?) I think it is disingenuous to claim that pressing and dry cleaning are not restoration. But compared to the more invasive forms of restoration, both pressing and dry cleaning are minimally intrusive and do no harm to the books when done correctly. If controlled, professional pressing harmed paper, it would not be in widespread use by conservators of all types of paper artifacts. The fact is, every paper conservator in and out of the comic industry presses paper artifacts in the course of treating those artifacts. It is a safe procedure when done correctly. I am convinced of that. I do not believe that any trained conservator would tell you otherwise.

 

Should it be disclosed? Yes. Will it be? No, in most cases, and there is no way to police this other than with before and after scans of slabbed books (which won't help us in 99.9% of the cases of pressing that have occurred). So at the end of the day, after all of the talk, we are back to the two choices I mentioned above.

 

 

Thats another great post there have actually been a lot in the latter part of this thread. I think for me it boils down to choice (b) as Scott has indicated - however with the tangent caveat that Jim eluded to. I believe that I now fully understand the product and service that CGC offer and unfortunately it is not what it is commonly perceived to be. An independent, impartial thrid party service. They are not truly independent being under the CCG Umbrella has consequences and impacts. Impartial, well there are controls in place for certain aspects of the service. But they have sold label space and designation off based on financial incentive rather than merit. Their business lacks transparency in many facets (published grading criteria, pedigree criteria etc) and their actual holder has the potential to damage books to a greater extent than other devices currently on the market.

 

I guess the counter arguement is that a truly impartial, independent 3rd party service is not financially viable, that may be. However, that still doesn't make CGC any more impartial. It just makes them a business, like any other business in the industry, that performs a service to make money. That is not to say Steve and the guys do not work hard grading comic books, I'm sure they do. But should they be the standard bearers for the hobby? I think they should be the standard bearers for their shareholders, but beyond that they have no motive or responsibility to the collector base as a whole. What I have come to realize is that they are just another entity competing for dollars in the industry. What each collector has to fathom, is how much does that service benefit me in terms of cost to benefit ratio. The dealers certainly have this equation locked down, but make no mistake, CGC is not here to protect us from anything. They are here to promote their business and make money. In that respect they are potentially more dangerous (just think about the market perception vs. reality of what can happen to a book and still get a Blue Label) as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[Aman619]

You're right, we do remember different "pre-CGC" Steve Borocks. The pre-CGC Steve Borock I remember was quite proud of having paid a record cash price for the Edgar Church More Fun #52, fully knowing that it had color touch. The "pre-CGC" Steve Borock you remember as "shunning all kinds of restoration" is a figment of your imagination..

 

that book was an exception. He truly desired that copy! And a Church mega key book with a dot of Snyder Midnight Insanity colortouch is a horse of a different color than a pressed book or the Church Tec 27 Steve said he passed on cause he thought it had wheat paste somewhere. As a serious collector of HG gems prior to CGC there is no way he approved of any restoration except in rare and special circumstances like the book you mentioned.

 

Before we started discussing pressing, were YOU in the market for a pressed book if you could avoid it? No, cause none of us were. theyre tainted. Now we have to deal with a situation where we realize we may all have brought a few into our homes unsuspectingly....

[Aman619]

JBUD - - thats the exact kind of summation Ive been trying to write. nicely done. CGC really believe it can be both a "protector" of comics collectors and a for-profit business for their shareholders/owners. And I believe that canNOT do both when they choose to profit from restoration techniques etc. Oh WHy wont they LISTEN!!!??

[jbud73]

You're right, we do remember different "pre-CGC" Steve Borocks. The pre-CGC Steve Borock I remember was quite proud of having paid a record cash price for the Edgar Church More Fun #52, fully knowing that it had color touch. The "pre-CGC" Steve Borock you remember as "shunning all kinds of restoration" is a figment of your imagination..

 

that book was an exception. He truly desired that copy! And a Church mega key book with a dot of Snyder Midnight Insanity colortouch is a horse of a different color than a pressed book or the Church Tec 27 Steve said he passed on cause he thought it had wheat paste somewhere. As a serious collector of HG gems prior to CGC there is no way he approved of any restoration except in rare and special circumstances like the book you mentioned.

 

Before we started discussing pressing, were YOU in the market for a pressed book if you could avoid it? No, cause none of us were. theyre tainted. Now we have to deal with a situation where we realize we may all have brought a few into our homes unsuspectingly....

 

Well I'm not sure we agree on the extent of pressing. When I read the OSGG and especially Matt Nelson's article, I do not believe that a book that has been NDP'd should garner more than a Slight resto tag. As Scott has stated its a non-invasive procedure.

 

I actually have no problem with Professionally restored books and own a few. I would also like to see the purple label come down - not because I'm hoarding them, only have 3. No I'd like to see it come down because that would be a solution to the stigma, THAT would possibly lead to a disclosure of minor (P) resto. I do not think that a pressed book is worth as much as a non-pressed book. HOWEVER I do not think the pressed book is that far off.

 

So if CGC or another grading company levelled the playing field, and devised a score based on, or even adopted Matt Nelson's system. I would whole heatedly support that BECAUSE IT WOULD BRING STABILITY AND CONSISTENCY to the hobby. That article by Nelson is the most scientific and structured proposition I have seen in comics in quite some time, it make so much sense. I guess too much sense for anyone to adopt.

[Foolkiller]

I haven't had a lot of time to read the boards lately, and just quickly skimmed through this thread. However, since this topic has been discussed to death, I'm not really sure I need to catch up all that much on the reading.

 

Professional pressing is not a big deal. If it could be detected and thus disclosed, I'd be in favor of it. On the other hand, if there's uncertainty and an inability to detect it in all instances, then I don't see what the concern is over the book.

 

This is what discourages me about collecting high grade books many times. Look at the state of the hobby in this finite sector of the marketplace: Each one of us is concerned because it impacts the value of the book. Is that wrong? No, but let's bottom line what we're all talking about here, it's dollars and cents. Because if the book doesn't perceptibly look different to the naked eye, and you can't see it like you can even a dot of color touch -- why in God's freakin' name does anybody care? Is the book deteriorating faster? Nope. Are the colors fading faster? No. Is anything altered by the pressing of a book professionally other than a few stress marks going away, and a flatter appearance? No.

 

I've beat this drum before, and I'll say it again, getting all up in arms over CGC's parent company having a separate pressing company under the same umbrella with CGC is nothing to get upset over. Let's say they start professionally pressing every single book out there!!!! Then don't buy CGC. Use some other service. Or, in the alternative, shift away from high grade books.

 

This is about money. They think that dealers are getting rich off of "pressed books" and CGC's parent company is whoring themselves out -- well, if you don't like it, then DON'T BUY THE PRODUCT. Don't buy CGC books, don't sell CGC books. But you know what? We all still will until it stops becoming profitable to do so. If you suddenly disclose pressing, where does that leave all the previously graded books? And if there was a sudden loss in confidence in CGC books, it wouldn't just be graded books that suffered, but all books in general (high grade).

 

People don't like being deceived. I understand that. But I'd like to know and understand why people are so outraged here -- and to everyone who has answered the who cares question, I don't think there's been one answer yet that's stated a good reason other than a personal bias.

[Aman619]

You're right, we do remember different "pre-CGC" Steve Borocks. The pre-CGC Steve Borock I remember was quite proud of having paid a record cash price for the Edgar Church More Fun #52, fully knowing that it had color touch. The "pre-CGC" Steve Borock you remember as "shunning all kinds of restoration" is a figment of your imagination..

 

that book was an exception. He truly desired that copy! And a Church mega key book with a dot of Snyder Midnight Insanity colortouch is a horse of a different color than a pressed book or the Church Tec 27 Steve said he passed on cause he thought it had wheat paste somewhere. As a serious collector of HG gems prior to CGC there is no way he approved of any restoration except in rare and special circumstances like the book you mentioned.

 

Before we started discussing pressing, were YOU in the market for a pressed book if you could avoid it? No, cause none of us were. theyre tainted. Now we have to deal with a situation where we realize we may all have brought a few into our homes unsuspectingly....

 

Well I'm not sure we agree on the extent of pressing. When I read the OSGG and especially Matt Nelson's article, I do not believe that a book that has been NDP'd should garner more than a Slight resto tag. As Scott has stated its a non-invasive procedure.

 

I actually have no problem with Professionally restored books and own a few. I would also like to see the purple label come down - not because I'm hoarding them, only have 3. No I'd like to see it come down because that would be a solution to the stigma, THAT would possibly lead to a disclosure of minor (P) resto. I do not think that a pressed book is worth as much as a non-pressed book. HOWEVER I do not think the pressed book is that far off.

 

So if CGC or another grading company levelled the playing field, and devised a score based on, or even adopted Matt Nelson's system. I would whole heatedly support that BECAUSE IT WOULD BRING STABILITY AND CONSISTENCY to the hobby. That article by Nelson is the most scientific and structured proposition I have seen in comics in quite some time, it make so much sense. I guess too much sense for anyone to adopt.

 

we probably do have differing viewpoints on the degrees of restoration. I am stronly opposed to buying restored books for my collection. I dont feel they hold value well. But you know what? I HAVE bought the occasional big book with minor work for whatever reason... usually cause I wanted a copy but didnt want to pay a mega price for a truly nice copy of a minor key (moment of weakness I guess) and of course the other kind, when I did not know it had had work.

 

But we can agree that ANY resto including NDP must devalue the book against a virgin copy. And yes, given the wide range of resto possible, NDP is clearly 'Slight' resto, but resto nonetheless.

 

I think longterm the hobby will come to terms with restored books as other paper collectibles have.

[Aman619]

This is about money. They think that dealers are getting rich off of "pressed books" and CGC's parent company is whoring themselves out -- well, if you don't like it, then DON'T BUY THE PRODUCT. Don't buy CGC books, don't sell CGC books.

 

good advice... but it reminds me of DC and Marvel in the last throes of the 90s boom. They realized people were speculating on comics, not buying them to read and enjoy. They liked the money they were making to be sure, but were worried about a sudden dropoff once people 'woke up' and stopped buying stuff they didnt care to read.

 

So they both went public urging customers to "only buy what they read and enjoyed" and not trying to get rich off comics. They hoped for a slow decline in sales to a healthy normalcy instead of the frenzied penny stock atmosphere they had created with multiple foil covers etc.

 

And guess what happenned: People DID stop overbuying until all that was left was those who only bought the titles they actually were reading. And the industry woke up to a fan base that could only support an average of 20 - 30,000 copies each!! Down from 80K or more per book....

 

So the moral of the story is, be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

If enough HG collectors shun slabs and comics altogether,----- well, you get the picture. It might not be the outcome any of us would wish for.