Answer from CGC.........

[Foolkiller]

I'm not wishing for a collapse in comics, but when prices become over inflated beyond real value, then perhaps a weeding out process needs to be done. A high end decline would only affect a small portion of the market. What you described, while a completely valid point (and one I agree with), is one that directly affected the current book market, so I envision the scenario to play out slightly differently.

 

Here's the bottom line for me: I think it'd be good if high grade books DID correct downward and were to drop. Their values have become almost ridiculously inflated. Nobody, not even most dealers, believe that these prices can be sustained based on the supply that exists out there of most books. The truly rare, and the truly high grade will always be in very high demand.

 

Part of the problem that pressing creates is that there is probably concern that this creates an "artificial high grade". That is to say that you by allowing pressing you are artificially creating more high grade books and inserting them into the market. Thus the rarity of high grade becomes slightly lessened. In the short term, some dealers can capitalize on this to their benefit, but in the long term, it inflates the numbers on books. So long as there is sufficient demand to support this small influx of newly pressed and slightly higher grade books, it won't matter... until that demand dissipates.

 

Regardless, many dealers would say that they are only infusing a small number of pressed books, and that it doesn't really have any impact on the marketplace as a whole. For my money, I would like to see a correction in prices on high grade downward, partially because I think it's appropriate, and partially because you would make it less financially beneficial for things like pressing to happen. If your margin is less because the high grade sells for less, it may not be worth it to press as frequently as apparently goes on.

[sborock]

You're right, we do remember different "pre-CGC" Steve Borocks. The pre-CGC Steve Borock I remember was quite proud of having paid a record cash price for the Edgar Church More Fun #52, fully knowing that it had color touch. The "pre-CGC" Steve Borock you remember as "shunning all kinds of restoration" is a figment of your imagination..

 

that book was an exception. He truly desired that copy! And a Church mega key book with a dot of Snyder Midnight Insanity colortouch is a horse of a different color than a pressed book or the Church Tec 27 Steve said he passed on cause he thought it had wheat paste somewhere. As a serious collector of HG gems prior to CGC there is no way he approved of any restoration except in rare and special circumstances like the book you mentioned.

 

Before we started discussing pressing, were YOU in the market for a pressed book if you could avoid it? No, cause none of us were. theyre tainted. Now we have to deal with a situation where we realize we may all have brought a few into our homes unsuspectingly....

 

Please tell me which dealer (or collector) has told you I would not buy a book that was pressed or even asked them if a book had been pressed before I bought it? I, BTW, had 2 BEAUTIFUL Golden Age Flash's in my collection that were professionally cleaned. They were just as nice looking as many of the pedigree Flash's in my run. But yes, when buying a comic from anyone, I always asked if a book was restored (most of the time, the answer on the books I KNEW had restoration was almost always "not to my knowledge", I just wanted to see what they would say ) I did not want books that were SOLVENT/WATER CLEANED AND PRESSED and I did not want any other work(glue, color touch, piece replacement and so on), but I did own many comic books that I THOUGHT were pressed and I owned many books with erasure marks and ones that had signs of dry (wonder bread/dry cleaning pad/ vinyl eraser) cleaning.

 

BTW...I very, very rarely bought any books with tape, hated that, still do.......I would rather have a tear seal than a piece of tape on a comic........

[jbud73]

Another great if pragmatic post Brain and I agree with a lot of what was said in it. Personally I have come full circle and no longer seek out NM+ already slabbed copies, I think there are very few instances were the premium is justified and with a bulk of late SA and BA books this will only get more and more true.

 

I think everyone will have to sit down and assess how this effects their collecting - those that know about it that is. I wish we had disclosure, but I know that and a lot of other things are not forthcoming.

 

Personally the information I have taken in over the past 18 months has caused a shift in my collecting habits including:

 

- My HG slabbed purchases of SA over 9.2 and BA over 9.4 have stopped ( 2 books in that time frame)

 

- I haven't purchases a book off Mr. Ewert, or Mr. Nathanson in that period.

 

- I have sent in one submission 3 books. More because I was curious about how certain defects would be treated than for protection of the book.

 

- I have sold off 15 of my slabs, often in trade deals where I got a 9.2 or 9.0 in return plus cash. All of these save 5 were cracked open.

 

However, I still plan on being a minor player in the HG market. That is I will over pay for a CGC HG slab from time to time - even with the knowledge that is may have or was pressed, IF I like the book. But the majority of my pick ups in the past year were books that were in the 9.2 to 9.4 range, bought raw off reputable dealers I have had long relationships with (Sulipa, R. Murray, Red Beard, Marc at HoC, Harley, Heroes, etc) Does that mean none of those books were NDP'd. Nope, but I got a lot of great books at reasonable prices (mostly around guide or slightly below) and I believe that the sellers disclosed everything to me that they knew about the book at the time of purchase. In today's market thats all you can do.

[skybolt]

BTW...I very, very rarely bought any books with tape, hated that, still do.......I would rather have a tear seal than a piece of tape on a comic........

 

The thing I hate the most is brittle pages. What's the use of having the book if it's going to fall apart on you.

[FFB]

You're right, we do remember different "pre-CGC" Steve Borocks. The pre-CGC Steve Borock I remember was quite proud of having paid a record cash price for the Edgar Church More Fun #52, fully knowing that it had color touch. The "pre-CGC" Steve Borock you remember as "shunning all kinds of restoration" is a figment of your imagination..

 

that book was an exception. He truly desired that copy! And a Church mega key book with a dot of Snyder Midnight Insanity colortouch is a horse of a different color than a pressed book or the Church Tec 27 Steve said he passed on cause he thought it had wheat paste somewhere. As a serious collector of HG gems prior to CGC there is no way he approved of any restoration except in rare and special circumstances like the book you mentioned.

 

Didn't this entire pressing discussion center for some time around the issue of Church books being pressed and resubmitted? Is a Church book still ok in your mind even if it's pressed? What about dry cleaning? Or are only those Church books that have a dot of color touch "special exceptions" to the "shun all restoration" stance?

 

And I agree that a pressed book is a different animal than a book with color touch. The one with color touch has foreign material on it to improve the condition. The pressed book does not.

 

I don't remember Steve saying that he refused to consider the Tec 27 because it had some kind of adhesive on the cover. Perhaps you could point out where he said that.

 

Before we started discussing pressing, were YOU in the market for a pressed book if you could avoid it? No, cause none of us were. theyre tainted. Now we have to deal with a situation where we realize we may all have brought a few into our homes unsuspectingly....

 

Don't tell me how I do or don't make purchasing decisions, because you clearly have no idea. As I have said before, I assume that every book I buy from Ewert, Metro, and ComicLink is pressed. My strong suspicion that several of the dozens of books I've purchased from these sellers was pressed has not affected my purchasing decision one bit, either with respect to desirability or amount I was willing to pay and I have dozens of transactions where I have put my money where my mouth is to back that up.

 

Do I seek out pressed books in particular because I find them more desirable than their non-pressed counterparts? Of course not. But I don't view them as tainted and I don't shun them. I frankly just don't care if they're pressed as long as the pressing was done correctly.

[FFB]

BTW...I very, very rarely bought any books with tape, hated that, still do.......I would rather have a tear seal than a piece of tape on a comic........

 

The thing I hate the most is brittle pages. What's the use of having the book if it's going to fall apart on you.

 

I am with you on that one. Page quality and freshness are the most important thing to me about a book and brittle pages are the kiss of death. Tape is a close second because of how destructive the adhesive is to paper and how difficult to remove it is when it becomes cross-linked.

 

Interestingly, it seems that there are restorative treatments that can restore some measure of flexibility and strength to brittle pages. This is one of those instances where I think restoration is not only a positive thing to do, but also pretty much the only responsible course of action because it helps save the artifact from complete disintegration.

[garthgantu]

Thanks for your "concern," Garth, but my week has been fine. Perhaps the reason my prior posts rub you the wrong way is because I'm not agreeing with everything that you are saying? I have been no more or less vitriolic than any of the other main participants in this discussion.

 

Why do you put "concern" in quotes? Do you think it's feigned on my part? I assure you it's not. The vitriol to which I refer wasn't even directed at me - at least I don't think it was...

 

I honestly think that your posts over the past four or five days, until today, came across as generally less amicable, more frustrated and annoyed, and considerably less fun to read. Not necessarily less informative, but when they all end in "and if you don't like, it go [#@$%!!!] yourself," it takes some of the enjoyment out of it.

 

You certainly weren't more vitriolic than some of the other main participants - you were more vitriolic than in the past. That's all I was saying.

 

I think that ultimately, we agree on all of the main points here except one: that it's worth continuing to debate this and vehemently express our (as in yours, mine and others, individually) opinions to CCG/CGC - assuming they're still reading. I think it's a reasonable investment of small amounts of my time to do so, you seem to feel that it's not, in your case. I respect that.

 

Glad to hear your week has gone well - better than Borock's, I imagine.

[FFB]

I honestly think that your posts over the past four or five days, until today, came across as generally less amicable, more frustrated and annoyed, and considerably less fun to read. Not necessarily less informative, but when they all end in "and if you don't like, it go [#@$%!!!] yourself," it takes some of the enjoyment out of it.

 

I think that you are focusing too much on the five or six of my posts with the word [#@$%!!!] in them in this thread and the Church/Mile High thread and are not focusing enough on the other 1,000 posts of mine over the last five days where I have been the model of cheeriness and light.

 

As a side comment, I see that my adoption of the philosophy of "The best defense is a good OldGuy impression" is not winning me any new friends.

[comicworm]

Thank you Foolkiller! I am new here and most don't agree with my points of view-but I do agree with your post. I don't neccessarily think that HG books will drop in value, but I really don't care if I bought a pressed book or if I wasn't even told about it, sorry-

 

I am still researching this topic so I can get my facts straight, but so far I have been talking to my fellow collectors/investors. who I brought into this hobby (still trying to get them to post here ), and they don't see it as that big of a deal either-and they spend a lot more cash on CGC books then I currently do!

[jbud73]

I honestly think that your posts over the past four or five days, until today, came across as generally less amicable, more frustrated and annoyed, and considerably less fun to read. Not necessarily less informative, but when they all end in "and if you don't like, it go [#@$%!!!] yourself," it takes some of the enjoyment out of it.

 

I think that you are focusing too much on the five or six of my posts with the word [#@$%!!!] in them in this thread and the Church/Mile High thread and are not focusing enough on the other 1,000 posts of mine over the last five days where I have been the model of cheeriness and light.

 

As a side comment, I see that my adoption of the philosophy of "The best defense is a good OldGuy impression" is not winning me any new friends.

 

Alright can we all just go have a beer now and maybe sit around throwing darts at a cracked CGC holder. Hey I can bring 4 empty coffins. An Ewert, an FFB a Lighthouse and a Metro. Not sure what the ranking system for points would be but I'd like to be too drunk to hit any of them.

[garthgantu]

Alright can we all just go have a beer now and maybe sit around throwing darts at a cracked CGC holder. Hey I can bring 4 empty coffins. An Ewert, an FFB a Lighthouse and a Metro. Not sure what the ranking system for points would be but I'd like to be too drunk to hit any of them.

 

Clearly, you're still not thinking like a BSD....they sit around drinking champagne directly out of the empty slab...!

[garthgantu]

I think that you are focusing too much on the five or six of my posts with the word [#@$%!!!] in them in this thread and the Church/Mile High thread and are not focusing enough on the other 1,000 posts of mine over the last five days where I have been the model of cheeriness and light.

 

As a side comment, I see that my adoption of the philosophy of "The best defense is a good OldGuy impression" is not winning me any new friends.

 

That's a fair point, as I've been hard-pressed (pun intended) just to keep up with the two "Answer from CGC..." threads... I'll try to go read some of your lighter reading this evening

 

And yes, only OldGuy can do a really good OldGuy impression - everyone else is just a "pi$$ed-off poser" by comparison

[THE_BEYONDER]

Just finished catching up on this thread from yesterday....and wanted to quote/respond to about a dozen posts...both good & bad.

 

But now that I'm finally HERE...it just doesn't seem worth it .

[Aces]

Just finished catching up on this thread from yesterday....and wanted to quote/respond to about a dozen posts...both good & bad.

 

But now that I'm finally HERE...it just doesn't seem worth it .

 

Feeling depressed?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Just finished catching up on this thread from yesterday....and wanted to quote/respond to about a dozen posts...both good & bad.

 

But now that I'm finally HERE...it just doesn't seem worth it .

 

Feeling depressed?

 

Nah. Just too lazy to deal with any further responses

[Aces]

Just finished catching up on this thread from yesterday....and wanted to quote/respond to about a dozen posts...both good & bad.

 

But now that I'm finally HERE...it just doesn't seem worth it .

 

Feeling depressed?

 

Nah. Just too lazy to deal with any further responses

 

**Pic Check**

[towards2112]

...I think we're done here.

 

8 PAGES LATER !!! You have to be kidding!

[comicwiz]

 

I personally don't find anything wrong with asking a seller if the book had been pressed, regardless of whether the book is raw or slabbed, and would treat this form questioning in the same manner as I would by asking the seller if there are any ripped pages, missing stamps, ink marks, etc. A cover scan/photo on auction often doesn't properly indicate the level of wear and tear, and some of the defects listed above are as transparent from a front/rear cover inspection as NDP. IMO, if the seller fails to reveal this information, and I have written proof in the form of an email message that they deny any such improvement and later discover either through reverting or telltale signs that the book was pressed, then I've been mislead.

 

The only problem I see with this statement is whether or not the seller had the book pressed themselves. Otherwise, if the book was originally purchased from a major dealer and pressing was not disclosed, then how can the seller be called dishonest? I hate having the feeling of being all alone out there if I'm trying to sell my slabbed collection years down the line. At least with other restoration work, I can always refer to CGC's expert detection system that the book is unrestored. With pressing, it's all a guessing game since it's undetectable.

 

With all due respect skybolt, yours is a classic cop-out statement! Not one I'm surprised in finding in this line of discussion, because this is the exact same rhetoric and b.s. that plagued the hobby before CGC was around, where sellers had when passing off restored books claiming they just didn't know better. Right!

 

Why should this hit-and-miss approach to selling off books where sellers are unable to detect any NDP work being performed on them be tolerated? Are you comfortable with a seller passing the blame on to the person they originally bought the book from? Personally, I couldn't give rats-[#@$%!!!] -- I just want my money back in full. And if the seller is NOT able to detect certain things like NDP and conversely self-proclaims him/herself unable to disclose that at the time of the sale, then they ought not get into the business of buying and selling comics. PERIOD.

 

And one more thing: just because CGC doesn't "detect" NDP, doesn't mean there aren't people out there that can't...

[skybolt]

 

I personally don't find anything wrong with asking a seller if the book had been pressed, regardless of whether the book is raw or slabbed, and would treat this form questioning in the same manner as I would by asking the seller if there are any ripped pages, missing stamps, ink marks, etc. A cover scan/photo on auction often doesn't properly indicate the level of wear and tear, and some of the defects listed above are as transparent from a front/rear cover inspection as NDP. IMO, if the seller fails to reveal this information, and I have written proof in the form of an email message that they deny any such improvement and later discover either through reverting or telltale signs that the book was pressed, then I've been mislead.

 

The only problem I see with this statement is whether or not the seller had the book pressed themselves. Otherwise, if the book was originally purchased from a major dealer and pressing was not disclosed, then how can the seller be called dishonest? I hate having the feeling of being all alone out there if I'm trying to sell my slabbed collection years down the line. At least with other restoration work, I can always refer to CGC's expert detection system that the book is unrestored. With pressing, it's all a guessing game since it's undetectable.

 

With all due respect skybolt, yours is a classic cop-out statement! Not one I'm surprised in finding in this line of discussion, because this is the exact same rhetoric and b.s. that plagued the hobby before CGC was around, where sellers had when passing off restored books claiming they just didn't know better. Right!

 

Why should this hit-and-miss approach to selling off books where sellers are unable to detect any NDP work being performed on them be tolerated? Are you comfortable with a seller passing the blame on to the person they originally bought the book from? Personally, I couldn't give rats-[#@$%!!!] -- I just want my money back in full. And if the seller is NOT able to detect certain things like NDP and conversely self-proclaims him/herself unable to disclose that at the time of the sale, then they ought not get into the business of buying and selling comics. PERIOD.

 

And one more thing: just because CGC doesn't "detect" NDP, doesn't mean there aren't people out there that can't...

 

If I'm selling a book and you don't like it for any reason, I'll accept a return no questions asked for a full refund. However, I hate being called a rip-off because I can't detect what 99.99% of other collectors can't either. I mean what if I'm selling a 9.2 graded GA book in a blue label. Then the buyer decides to take it out of the holder, and after inspecting the book for several hours, decides that the book has been pressed and wants their money back. As a seller, now I'm out my $75+ slabbing fee, plus shipping, plus who knows whether or not the buyer damaged the book while unslabbing it. If you can find a buyer that is willing to take a loss like that even though they have no prior knowledge whether the book was pressed 10 or 20 years ago, and have no clue how to detect pressing, than go for it. Otherwise you're calling 95% of collectors out there frauds.

[comicwiz]

 

I personally don't find anything wrong with asking a seller if the book had been pressed, regardless of whether the book is raw or slabbed, and would treat this form questioning in the same manner as I would by asking the seller if there are any ripped pages, missing stamps, ink marks, etc. A cover scan/photo on auction often doesn't properly indicate the level of wear and tear, and some of the defects listed above are as transparent from a front/rear cover inspection as NDP. IMO, if the seller fails to reveal this information, and I have written proof in the form of an email message that they deny any such improvement and later discover either through reverting or telltale signs that the book was pressed, then I've been mislead.

 

The only problem I see with this statement is whether or not the seller had the book pressed themselves. Otherwise, if the book was originally purchased from a major dealer and pressing was not disclosed, then how can the seller be called dishonest? I hate having the feeling of being all alone out there if I'm trying to sell my slabbed collection years down the line. At least with other restoration work, I can always refer to CGC's expert detection system that the book is unrestored. With pressing, it's all a guessing game since it's undetectable.

 

With all due respect skybolt, yours is a classic cop-out statement! Not one I'm surprised in finding in this line of discussion, because this is the exact same rhetoric and b.s. that plagued the hobby before CGC was around, where sellers had when passing off restored books claiming they just didn't know better. Right!

 

Why should this hit-and-miss approach to selling off books where sellers are unable to detect any NDP work being performed on them be tolerated? Are you comfortable with a seller passing the blame on to the person they originally bought the book from? Personally, I couldn't give rats-[#@$%!!!] -- I just want my money back in full. And if the seller is NOT able to detect certain things like NDP and conversely self-proclaims him/herself unable to disclose that at the time of the sale, then they ought not get into the business of buying and selling comics. PERIOD.

 

And one more thing: just because CGC doesn't "detect" NDP, doesn't mean there aren't people out there that can't...

 

If you can find a buyer that is willing to take a loss like that even though they have no prior knowledge whether the book was pressed 10 or 20 years ago, and have no clue how to detect pressing, than go for it. Otherwise you're calling 95% of collectors out there frauds.

 

So I guess given your rationale, its ok for the unassuming buyer to take the hit in loss of value after a book reverts, but not the seller?

 

What if I decide to crack the book out of the slab, and after a year or so out of the slab, the book begins to revert to its original pre-NDP defects? I say that given my dogrmatic insistence and predisposition towards steering clear of books which have been pressed (and although I may be speaking from the minority, this is akin to the condition sensitive collector wanting to steer clear of PLOD books), then I feel that sellers ought to be a little more dilligent about finding out as much about the books history before selling.

 

And besides, your taking this discussion to the extreme end of the continuum -- although I can agree to disagree with your points on decietful selling practices, and selling NDP books without disclosure is but one of the many, I'm referring specifically to the scumbag sellers that are doing the NDP work and failing to disclose the work. In my opinion, their behaviour is none better than the nefarious selling activities of the one who's been tarred and feathered on these boards and others for passing off restored books as unrestored.