Grader Notes

[DrWatson]

Oh, I'm pretty sure Haspel is well aware of what's going on and Borock doesn't give a mess.

[Bruno_s4]

Oh, I'm pretty sure Haspel is well aware of what's going on and Borock doesn't give a mess.

 

I thought his leave was temporary?

I liked him.

[DrWatson]

Oh, I'm pretty sure Haspel is well aware of what's going on and Borock doesn't give a mess.

 

I thought his leave was temporary?

I liked him.

Haspel's is temporary. Borock's gone for good.

[Bruno_s4]

Yes that's what I meant.

But it's been over a year.....

 

"Posted on 3/24/2011

 

Mark Haspel is taking a leave of absense to take care of some personal issues.

 

Mark Haspel, president of CGC Comics has announced he will be taking a leave of absence but will be rejoining the company within a year. Haspel will be taking the time off for personal reasons and looks forward to returning to the company. Mark will continue to work with CGC as a consultant during his leave."

[WEBHEAD]

Seriously, I said nothing when they raised their rates recently as I don't know their costs or bottom line but charging this much for simple notes has to change. Graders notes only help people make their decision to buy a comic that they paid CGC to evaluate.

 

I want to talk to the people at CGC that first sat around a desk in meetings saying something like.... "I think our customers would really like to have access to the notes (and pregrades) available to them as it could contain important information for discerning buyers that are looking to avoid certain types of flaws" And then obviously the management at the time agreed and implemented a policy of only 3 books per day to keep it under control.

 

Fast forward to today where they (under new management) are fielding many note calls for different reasons and current management sits around the same desk and talks about how to

a) put a ridiculously overpriced charge on the service where the higher value books cost more even though the process of providing the information is the same for all comics of all ages and values

b) automate the system yet make it a bigger hassle to get the notes by waiting to get an email within 24 hours

c) slip it in without any pre-warning or any opinion gathering from it's loyal members

d) not even offer free notes to the person that originally submitted the book

e) anyone care to add?

 

Was CGC bought by Apple or Microsoft?

Where is Haspel and Borock when we need them?

 

 

Most of my books are Economy so if there are one or two I needed I guess $5 is ok. What would me off is an uncomplete list of the defects or a sorry no grade there and charge me $5 for asking.

 

 

Personally considering the high cost to slab (which adds 15-20% to your selling price) and the long long waiting time for the book to return I think it should be part of the product. If you send a book to be restored, you are always given what was done to it....

[Marty Mann]

I can understand potential buyers wanting to check on the

quality and flaws of a book...but I'm trying to find out from

CGC why my books graded so low...all 3 at almost the same

grade...and I'm to be charged for questioning them?

 

mm

[DrWatson]

Yes that's what I meant.

But it's been over a year.....

 

"Posted on 3/24/2011

 

Mark Haspel is taking a leave of absense to take care of some personal issues.

 

Mark Haspel, president of CGC Comics has announced he will be taking a leave of absence but will be rejoining the company within a year. Haspel will be taking the time off for personal reasons and looks forward to returning to the company. Mark will continue to work with CGC as a consultant during his leave."

That's the date the press release was posted he was leaving. It isn't necessarily the date his leave began.

[Bruno_s4]

I can understand potential buyers wanting to check on the

quality and flaws of a book...but I'm trying to find out from

CGC why my books graded so low...all 3 at almost the same

grade...and I'm to be charged for questioning them?

 

mm

 

=

d) not even offer free notes to the person that originally submitted the book

 

That's a huge point. You pay hundreds of dollars to other humans who make mistakes and can't question their judgement without paying more money.

 

I think the entire forum should be behind us on this one that something has to change!

 

Make it free to the original submitter and make it a flat rate $3 or $5 (max) charge per book regardless of the tier and I think most of us will accept it. And obviously don't charge if there are no notes available.

 

 

[DrWatson]

If there aren't any notes available, then there isn't a link provided to click for notes. It's sounds fool proof, but every time I say that someone invents a better fool.

[Marty Mann]

Submitted at STANDARD TIER...I would hope there are

notes available!

 

mm

[david20009]

What I wonder is what some of the big movers of CGC books like ComicLink, Heritage, ComicConnect think of this as I would think it will discourage some bidders, even if it is just at the margin.

 

Having just sold a ton of books on the boards to over 40 me,bets I had a fair number of people say they needed to call about notes as part of their decision making process. I wonder if this policy had been in place over the last 3 weeks if I would have had fewer sales as a result. I'm small potatoes and just sold a project off but to the big boys this could be an issue.

 

Would you call for notes and pay these prices for a book at auction that you do not know if you would win anyways.

 

 

[The Amazing Chump]

I'm not reading this whole thing. I just can't handle it sober. But my reaction:

 

1) The charge differential per tier is bunk. A service should cost an amount. Unless CGC can prove that notes for the tiers are materially different, they're not providing any additional value for a higher price. Just soaking folks.

 

2) Sure, pressers make money off comics. So? Lots of people do. Doesn't give CGC justification for poor decisions. Also, they make money off pressers, so they can quit whining.

 

3) This is a net positive for them operationally (even without the charge). They no longer provide notes in person-tying up staff and phone resources. They just need to do some database cleanup and host a site. That level of investment doesn't justify this level of screwing your customer base.

 

4) If I PAY an appraiser to evaluate something I'm entitled to ask how they arrived at that value/opinion and get the explanation.

 

5) I'm certain we'll see a lot more notes on books graded post-April 2012.

 

Thanks for allowing me to add to the mayhem.

[The Amazing Chump]

What I wonder is what some of the big movers of CGC books like ComicLink, Heritage, ComicConnect think of this as I would think it will discourage some bidders, even if it is just at the margin.

 

Having just sold a ton of books on the boards to over 40 me,bets I had a fair number of people say they needed to call about notes as part of their decision making process. I wonder if this policy had been in place over the last 3 weeks if I would have had fewer sales as a result. I'm small potatoes and just sold a project off but to the big boys this could be an issue.

 

Would you call for notes and pay these prices for a book at auction that you do not know if you would win anyways.

 

 

I'm guessing enterprise-level relationships and some kind of right to republish is pending. If it's not, CGC planned this like *spoon* and the big boys will demand it.

 

Just a guess, but a good one I'd think.

[marvelcollector]

Seriously, I said nothing when they raised their rates recently as I don't know their costs or bottom line but charging this much for simple notes has to change. Graders notes only help people make their decision to buy a comic that they paid CGC to evaluate.

 

I want to talk to the people at CGC that first sat around a desk in meetings saying something like.... "I think our customers would really like to have access to the notes (and pregrades) available to them as it could contain important information for discerning buyers that are looking to avoid certain types of flaws" And then obviously the management at the time agreed and implemented a policy of only 3 books per day to keep it under control.

 

Fast forward to today where they (under new management) are fielding many note calls for different reasons and current management sits around the same desk and talks about how to

a) put a ridiculously overpriced charge on the service where the higher value books cost more even though the process of providing the information is the same for all comics of all ages and values

b) automate the system yet make it a bigger hassle to get the notes by waiting to get an email within 24 hours

c) slip it in without any pre-warning or any opinion gathering from it's loyal members

d) not even offer free notes to the person that originally submitted the book

e) anyone care to add?

 

Was CGC bought by Apple or Microsoft?

Where is Haspel and Borock when we need them?

 

Yes, this move is outrageous, and I try to avoid using that word.

 

CCC's concern for the "interests of the hobby" really shine through here.

 

If there was any doubt, tney're all about the money.

 

They don't give a spoon, fork, or any other utensil for the collector.

[Marty Mann]

With the low grades my Key Books received and not being able to

find out why they graded so low without paying for the information...

makes me think twice about submitting any more of my collection

for grading...it's not as though I was about to sell them, just thought

it was a nice way to preserve and present them.

 

mm

 

 

[WEBHEAD]

I'm not reading this whole thing. I just can't handle it sober. But my reaction:

 

1) The charge differential per tier is bunk. A service should cost an amount. Unless CGC can prove that notes for the tiers are materially different, they're not providing any additional value for a higher price. Just soaking folks.

 

2) Sure, pressers make money off comics. So? Lots of people do. Doesn't give CGC justification for poor decisions. Also, they make money off pressers, so they can quit whining.

 

3) This is a net positive for them operationally (even without the charge). They no longer provide notes in person-tying up staff and phone resources. They just need to do some database cleanup and host a site. That level of investment doesn't justify this level of screwing your customer base.

 

4) If I PAY an appraiser to evaluate something I'm entitled to ask how they arrived at that value/opinion and get the explanation.

 

5) I'm certain we'll see a lot more notes on books graded post-April 2012.

 

Thanks for allowing me to add to the mayhem.

 

Remember questioning a grade you receive back (depending on the time of day or the mood your grader is in) is moot, why because CGC standards are a trade secret

 

[Bruno_s4]

What I wonder is what some of the big movers of CGC books like ComicLink, Heritage, ComicConnect think of this as I would think it will discourage some bidders, even if it is just at the margin.

 

Having just sold a ton of books on the boards to over 40 me,bets I had a fair number of people say they needed to call about notes as part of their decision making process. I wonder if this policy had been in place over the last 3 weeks if I would have had fewer sales as a result. I'm small potatoes and just sold a project off but to the big boys this could be an issue.

 

Would you call for notes and pay these prices for a book at auction that you do not know if you would win anyways.

 

 

You have a point David. I think it very well may have an effect.

 

Before I bid on a big book if possible I do like to call for the notes as a safety precaution.

I learned my lesson 3 years ago when I put a best offer bid on an ASM 1 CGC 4.0 from ebay without calling for the notes. The following Monday I called for the notes and the book at had a rusty staple. I was very relieved I had time to retract my bid before the seller accepted or counter offered and didn't win the book.

 

[MrBedrock]

Not a reply to anyone, simply a string of thoughts...

 

I have never called for grader's notes. Really. Never. Not on any book I have had graded. Not on any book someone has offered to me. Not on any book I've seen online or in an auction. I only mention this to show where my biases are.

 

If the point is to not have people call for grader's notes then why do grader's notes even exist? I don't know anyone who grades comics who notes and/or keeps records of defects on specific books other than for descriptive purposes when selling. Sellers grade books and then put some descriptions in their ad listings. But I don't think anyone keeps detailed and comprehensive notes on specific defects from every book they have ever graded. The CGC is not selling books. The CGC is not involved in any part of any transaction after the book has been graded. They are only being paid to grade the book. The graders look at the book. Each grader make notes to justify his or her grade. They confer. They arrive at a grade. The book is graded. Done. Why keep the notes?

 

So why are they keeping notes? Well there could be two reasons. The first...that their notes are an actual part of the service they are providing for fee. If that is the case then those notes should be provided to the submitter as part of the service. If the grade is dependent on the notes then the notes should be part of the grade. The submitter paid for the grade, therefore the submitter should get the notes. Or the second...that The CGC realizes that their notes could have some value. They keep the notes because they want to monetize them.

 

So it doesn't appear to me that monetizing the notes is being done to offset time and money spent answering the phone, or time and money spent entering data. If that were the case they could just stop transcribing their thought processes while grading the books. They could do what they are being paid to do, grade.

 

But since they are now using the notes to create a new revenue stream I really do have an issue. This may sound petty, but I do have a problem with The CGC making additional money off of others for notes related to a book I sent in and paid to have graded. It's not what I feel I agreed to when I submitted the book in the first place. I paid to have a book graded. End of story. If I knew that I was also sending books in to create a pile of information that could be sold at a later date for X amount of dollars I would certainly have to take that into consideration. I might still use the service, but I would want to know that information up front. I'm sure that many of you are going say "It happens all the time on the internet! That's the way things are in this information age!" And you are right. But I know that when I bid in auctions, or enter information, or buy stuff. But I didn't know that with The CGC. There are all kinds of analogies I could use here, but I hate analogies so I won't bore you. But suffice to say that I want a piece of that pie.

 

I would imagine that the vast majority of books with notes are golden age and silver age. Let's say for illustrative purposes the average cost of grading gold and silver comics is $50 per book. And let's say someone submits 500 books per year. That amounts to $25000 per year in grading fees paid to The CGC. Let's then guess that those 500 submission generate 50 requests for notes at $15 per request. That $750. 100 requests - $1500. If each book were to get a request - $7500. What if the submitter put one book up for sale on his or her web-site and that listing generated multiple request for notes. Five requests means The CGC makes more off the notes then they do off the original grading fees. That's a ton of money created for The CGC by a comic which is not owned by The CGC and from information which The CGC was paid to provide.

 

If The CGC is going to create notes then at the least the submitter should be provided with them.

 

The submitter should get a piece of the revenue created by the notes, either in submission credits or some other form of submission reductions.

 

If enough revenue is generated by requests for notes then the submission costs should be reduced on the grading tiers which contain a majority of the note generating submissions.

 

Or The CGC can just stop taking notes.

[Marty Mann]

"...at the least the submitter should be provided with them.".

THANK YOU!

 

mm

[DrWatson]

Not a reply to anyone, simply a string of thoughts...

 

I have never called for grader's notes. Really. Never. Not on any book I have had graded. Not on any book someone has offered to me. Not on any book I've seen online or in an auction. I only mention this to show where my biases are.

 

If the point is to not have people call for grader's notes then why do grader's notes even exist? I don't know anyone who grades comics who notes and/or keeps records of defects on specific books other than for descriptive purposes when selling. Sellers grade books and then put some descriptions in their ad listings. But I don't think anyone keeps detailed and comprehensive notes on specific defects from every book they have ever graded. The CGC is not selling books. The CGC is not involved in any part of any transaction after the book has been graded. They are only being paid to grade the book. The graders look at the book. Each grader make notes to justify his or her grade. They confer. They arrive at a grade. The book is graded. Done. Why keep the notes?

 

So why are they keeping notes? Well there could be two reasons. The first...that their notes are an actual part of the service they are providing for fee. If that is the case then those notes should be provided to the submitter as part of the service. If the grade is dependent on the notes then the notes should be part of the grade. The submitter paid for the grade, therefore the submitter should get the notes. Or the second...that The CGC realizes that their notes could have some value. They keep the notes because they want to monetize them.

 

So it doesn't appear to me that monetizing the notes is being done to offset time and money spent answering the phone, or time and money spent entering data. If that were the case they could just stop transcribing their thought processes while grading the books. They could do what they are being paid to do, grade.

 

But since they are now using the notes to create a new revenue stream I really do have an issue. This may sound petty, but I do have a problem with The CGC making additional money off of others for notes related to a book I sent in and paid to have graded. It's not what I feel I agreed to when I submitted the book in the first place. I paid to have a book graded. End of story. If I knew that I was also sending books in to create a pile of information that could be sold at a later date for X amount of dollars I would certainly have to take that into consideration. I might still use the service, but I would want to know that information up front. I'm sure that many of you are going say "It happens all the time on the internet! That's the way things are in this information age!" And you are right. But I know that when I bid in auctions, or enter information, or buy stuff. But I didn't know that with The CGC. There are all kinds of analogies I could use here, but I hate analogies so I won't bore you. But suffice to say that I want a piece of that pie.

 

I would imagine that the vast majority of books with notes are golden age and silver age. Let's say for illustrative purposes the average cost of grading gold and silver comics is $50 per book. And let's say someone submits 500 books per year. That amounts to $25000 per year in grading fees paid to The CGC. Let's then guess that those 500 submission generate 50 requests for notes at $15 per request. That $750. 100 requests - $1500. If each book were to get a request - $7500. What if the submitter put one book up for sale on his or her web-site and that listing generated multiple request for notes. Five requests means The CGC makes more off the notes then they do off the original grading fees. That's a ton of money created for The CGC by a comic which is not owned by The CGC and from information which The CGC was paid to provide.

 

If The CGC is going to create notes then at the least the submitter should be provided with them.

 

The submitter should get a piece of the revenue created by the notes, either in submission credits or some other form of submission reductions.

 

If enough revenue is generated by requests for notes then the submission costs should be reduced on the grading tiers which contain a majority of the note generating submissions.

 

Or The CGC can just stop taking notes.

This post is the equivalent of Lady Godiva riding naked through the streets of Coventry in opposition to the oppressive taxation levied by her ruling husband.