Grader Notes

[comicwiz]

IMO, it's a work for hire contract - and there's no such thing as a royalty free non-exclusive license en perpetuity. Compiling data is one thing. Charging a fee for access to data is another. Not clearly communicating to the client that there's commerce based on the process that's being entirely covered by the client or offering a reduction for license is negligent misrepresentation and material concealment. Again, JMO.

 

[fantastic_four]

IMO, it's a work for hire contract - and there's no such thing as a royalty free non-exclusive license en perpetuity. Compiling data is one thing. Charging a fee for access to data is another. Not clearly communicating to the client that there's commerce based on the process that's being entirely covered by the client or offering a reduction for license is negligent misrepresentation and material concealment. Again, JMO.

 

Why would they need a license for the data they're selling? It costs their customer nothing to compile or sell it. What law makes written descriptions of an item not created by the item's owner the property of that owner?

 

I'm not a lawyer, I've just had a long-time interest in the law surrounding creative works, particularly copyright/patent/trademark law. I'm not saying law doesn't exist, I'm just not familiar with one that covers this.

[Mxwll Smrt]

I really think they made a huge mistake here and should be both gracious and humble with the users of their service and not look to litigate if someone files suit - IMO, they should quickly apologize - and set up a rebate associated with the grader notes for the client whose notes are being requested - that fills the consideration of a license - a non-exclusive license can be revoked at any time.

 

The biggest problem that CGC is going to have, and their attorney will be castigated (criticized) to no end by and in the legal community is if a plaintiff likens the scenario with the grader notes to "rape". I would love to see CGC's attorney's argue that a female has no right to say "no". JMO.

[Mxwll Smrt]

They need a license because the notes are derivative of the essence of the work for hire - and the key (of paramount importance) of what the consumer is paying for - the grade.

 

Secondly, those notes absolutely cost the customer - they're included in the fees CGC charges.

 

I would suggest looking at USC 17 - there are mountains of case law in support of such.

[Bronty]

I haven't read the debate but if all it is amounts to griping that they will charge 15 for notes, I think you guys have it backwards. I'm surprised they EVER spent that kind of employee time giving out free notes and I view the charge not as a profit grab but as an effort to stop having dozens of people call them every day wasting company time and energy. I bet if they could do it over again graders notes would never have been open to the public at any price.

 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

Does anyone here support the new fee structure for grading notes?

 

I have read every post and haven't seen one yet.

 

What's the next step?

Do we call them (if so then who)?

Email them (if so then who)?

Stop sending in books (doubt that will happen on a noticeable level)?

 

Or just sit by and take the attitude that someone else will represent our view and that they will change their policy. A lot of people have an issue with this change but will you rock the boat or just wait for the next "improvement" at The CGC?

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I like to check notes for bigger ($1000+) purchases (because that is a lot of money to me) to make sure that certain defects that I wish to avoid are not present on the book before I receive it in hand. I know it was a free service for 12 years and if there is now a charge then so be it but I will not pay $15 to $30 for such a simple request.

 

 

Somethings gotta give. I know I won't pay for it, so if it's a book I really need to have, the only way the sale will happen is if the seller picks up the cost. I suppose if enough people employ this method, dealers will be the first to complain en masse.

 

You obviously know the reasons why people slab books to sell them and then do not take returns on them, so why would it be my job as a seller to obtain the graders notes for you?

 

Let me ask you the first obvious question I would have for anyone making such a request. What happens if I would buy the grader's notes for you and then in turn you decide to pass on the book? Am I just supposed to eat the grading costs? Yea I don't think so.

 

Sorry but that is completely absurd for any buyer now to expect a seller to buy them graded notes on a CGC graded book. Good luck with that.

 

99.999999999% of the reason why most really good sellers/dealers do not need to call for graders notes is because they already know how to grade, and can tell you everything that is wrong with the book case in hand.

 

The only reason for me why graders notes was ever valuable is to maybe why the book was hammered so bad due to some interior problems that I missed. Other than that graders notes are completely worthless because mostly everything you can see is right in front of you.

[Mxwll Smrt]

My discussion is strictly regarding the legal position. I think $15.00 for notes is very fair - and I also believe that a portion should go back in the form of a royalty to the person that paid to have their book graded. The resources needed to handle the sale of grader notes is not an overwhelming prospect.

[fantastic_four]

The biggest problem that CGC is going to have, and their attorney will be castigated (criticized) to no end by and in the legal community is if a plaintiff likens the scenario with the grader notes to "rape". I would love to see CGC's attorney's argue that a female has no right to say "no". JMO.

 

Umm...how is selling notes at all similar to rape?

 

They need a license because the notes are derivative of the essence of the work for hire - and the key (of paramount importance) of what the consumer is paying for - the grade.

 

Secondly, those notes absolutely cost the customer - they're included in the fees CGC charges.

 

You're dramatically overstating the role of the notes in CGC's grading process. They're not "of paramount importance"--they could stop taking them today and still continue their business. The value they add is that they make it less likely that other graders won't overlook defects, particularly ones that are quite subtle--but that's not key to the grading, it just makes it more reliable. The notes are a great idea, but not crucial.

 

Earlier in the thread Dr. Balls indicated that he would charge his clients for the intermediate graphics he uses to create graphic images for clients--I have long seen companies do this kind of thing, sell off products of the creation process to their clients. It's douchey to double-charge your client like this and leaves you vulnerable to a competitor providing better service by giving you all temporary work to support the service for free, but I've seen it done so much that I'd find it hard to believe it's illegal. I don't know why the customer would have any rights to temporary work--particularly in this case. These are simple, factual descriptions of physical items--I don't know why the owner of the item would have any right to those descriptions.

[fantastic_four]

I haven't read the debate but if all it is amounts to griping that they will charge 15 for notes, I think you guys have it backwards. I'm surprised they EVER spent that kind of employee time giving out free notes and I view the charge not as a profit grab but as an effort to stop having dozens of people call them every day wasting company time and energy. I bet if they could do it over again graders notes would never have been open to the public at any price.

 

Foolkiller pointed that out a number of days ago earlier in the thread--I suspect you're both right, at least in part.

[fantastic_four]

The only reason for me why graders notes was ever valuable is to maybe why the book was hammered so bad due to some interior problems that I missed. Other than that graders notes are completely worthless because mostly everything you can see is right in front of you.

 

This assumes the book is actually in front of you--they're useful to online buyers.

[Mxwll Smrt]

All one has to do is say no. For amplification, there's a problem with the language and substance in the disclaimer. A non-exclusive license, where no royalty is paid, can be terminated at any time. Period. End of discussion.

 

On a date with a pretty woman, boundaries get established. No means no. End of discussion (and yes, it's meant to illustrate boundaries and limitations).

[Mxwll Smrt]

For that matter, on a date with anyone, boundaries are established by the word no. Secondly, the notes are what are used to make up the grade of the book. My suggestion to CGC would be also considered to be a business suggestion and not a legal one - although it comprises a legal position - which is just fix the model - create a royalty or barter system where the owner of the notes gets a little something back for making his investment and hiring CGC - because it can work. There's ultimately no reason to be nasty, just figure out a solution and move forward.

[fantastic_four]

All one has to do is say no. For amplification, there's a problem with the language and substance in the disclaimer. A non-exclusive license, where no royalty is paid, can be terminated at any time. Period. End of discussion.

 

I never entered this discussion--I don't think this disclaimer is even needed and may just be legal CYA. The notes are CGC's property--any idea why the client would have any rights at all to them?

 

On a date with a pretty woman, boundaries get established. No means no. End of discussion (and yes, it's meant to illustrate boundaries and limitations).

 

Still not getting the comparison--who's saying no, and who's getting damaged in the comic owner/CGC relationship with these notes being taken? When a rape happens, a woman is emotionally and/or physically injured--what injury or loss is a CGC customer experiencing from the sale of the notes?

[Marty Mann]

What's next...a fee for scanning the CGC Holder with your

own book in it?

 

mm

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I haven't read the debate but if all it is amounts to griping that they will charge 15 for notes, I think you guys have it backwards. I'm surprised they EVER spent that kind of employee time giving out free notes and I view the charge not as a profit grab but as an effort to stop having dozens of people call them every day wasting company time and energy. I bet if they could do it over again graders notes would never have been open to the public at any price.

 

 

Yes, but as Joseph has pointed out, this new process has effectively harmed the slab's usefulness as a selling tool. For books where the assigned grade doesn't match a visual inspection of the slab's contents, the Grader's Notes become the Rosetta Stone of the Certification Process, available for a small fee of course.

 

Let's indulge in a little creative role-playing....

 

CGC: Hello, my name is Abdullah, how may I help you?

Customer: Hi. I recently received back a submission in the mail, and I was really curious as to why one of my books received a 7.0, when it was an easy 9.0 or better. I'm looking at this book and its just beautiful, I really don't understand the grade assigned. Was there a hidden interior defect that I missed?

CGC: No problem sir, you can purchase the CGC Grader's Notes online and they should cover that for you.

Customer: So, I have to purchase the notes in addition to the grading fees?

CGC: Yes, sir.

Customer: Well, I don't think that's fair. That's like hiring an appraisal to appraise my house for $350, only to have them send me a one page summary. If I want the full version of the report, it'll cost me an extra $50. Do I have any other options?

CGC: You can always crack the slab and examine the book for yourself.

Customer: Won't that invalidate the grade, and by extension, give your company an "out" if I decided to take issue with your process?

CGC: I can send you over to the legal department and they would be happy to answer that question.

Customer: Can anyone purchase a copy of the notes to my book?

CGC: Yes.

Customer: Hmm. That's disconcerting. Well, I don't put my books on the registry specifically because I want a little anonymity. I really don't want to publicize what I own, however, I just noticed one of the rare books I sent in last year is in the CGC Gallery, and is being used in CGC ads in the Overstreet Guide. Yet, I've given no express written consent for your company to do that.

CGC: I believe the legal department can answer that question for you more in depth then I can, but for all intents and purposes, by submitting books to us, you do give CGC the ability to use images of your submissions in any capacity that we deem fit.

Customer: I think I'll take that transfer to your legal department now....

[fantastic_four]

What's next...a fee for scanning the CGC Holder with your

own book in it?

 

They do charge this fee. They take the scans anyway, but if you want a copy of the images, they've been charging customers for this since extremely early on--perhaps from day 1, not sure of that though, I heard of the fee for the first time I believe in 2001.

[Marty Mann]

I mean scanning the book and holder to post on the boards.

 

mm

[NewWorldOrder]

The only reason for me why graders notes was ever valuable is to maybe why the book was hammered so bad due to some interior problems that I missed. Other than that graders notes are completely worthless because mostly everything you can see is right in front of you.

 

This assumes the book is actually in front of you--they're useful to online buyers.

 

 

When I sell most of my books they are right in front of me, so you can just ask me.

 

I will assume you mean places like ComicLink, ComicConnect, or Heritage where potential buyers could call CGC to obtain the graders notes on a book they are interested in.

 

Sure it was cool for past 12 years that anyone could call up and get graders notes for free, but it is not reasonable for anyone to now assume online auctions houses or any seller for that matter should purchase graders notes for potential buyers.

 

Probably the only time would be a case by case basis if a serious collector wanted to know the notes on big tickets book like a Action Comics #1, but on most common books I think you are out of luck.

 

The reason CGC books as you know sell for more than guide value a fair amount of the time is in fact they are CGC graded and trusted in the hobby. So if a buyer wants that certain book in 8.5, well here it is graded right in front of them at CGC 8.5. I think just from a normal phone call or email you can ask the auctions houses or sellers or if a book has any defects you usually tend stray away from.

[Silver]

I didn't read this whole thread but my opinion is that subscibers to the Collector's Society should get like one free graders notes per month, or so many per year with the subscription so the casual user still gets a shot at graders notes once in awhile.

 

There should be a seperate subscription service for heavy users, not per book, that's crazy.

 

I agree with the poster that said that they can't believe this was being given away all these years, I thought the same thing.

[jimjum12]

I haven't read the debate but if all it is amounts to griping that they will charge 15 for notes, I think you guys have it backwards. I'm surprised they EVER spent that kind of employee time giving out free notes and I view the charge not as a profit grab but as an effort to stop having dozens of people call them every day wasting company time and energy. I bet if they could do it over again graders notes would never have been open to the public at any price.

 

Foolkiller pointed that out a number of days ago earlier in the thread--I suspect you're both right, at least in part.

 

.....and with that being said, I will still be sending in ocassional books to be slabbed (...and pressed) and I will also continue to buy CGC graded books (when I can afford to). GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u