Grader Notes

[fantastic_four]

1. From you - The notes are CGC's property--any idea why the client would have any rights at all to them?

 

1. From me - No, the notes are a derivative property of the person that employed CGC on a work for hire basis.

 

2. From you - Still not getting the comparison--who's saying no, and who's getting damaged in the comic owner/CGC relationship with these notes being taken?

 

2. From me - a non-exclusive license, absent consideration, can be revoked at any time. A person who hires CGC to perform work under a "work for hire" basis has the right to say to CGC that they (CGC) does not have the right to sell the data associated with the book the client has paid CGC to grade - because the notes are part of the grade and in essence the new state of the book, which is a derivative product - the book is no longer considered raw, is in a plastic holder and has been graded by industry accepted specialists.

 

The notes are not the property of the person--they didn't create them, CGC created them. They own them. As stated earlier in the thread, they're usually not unique enough to fall under copyright, but they're in CGC's possession and I can't see how the client has any right to a text description of their item. Similarly, I would here like to proclaim that Jennifer Connelly is a sexy beast, but that "sexy beast" note is mine, not Jennifer's--I observed it and I wrote it. If I want to sell that evaluation of her to someone who might want to buy it, I can. Newspapers and magazines do it every day.

 

The notes are not part of the grade--CGC never promised you notes, and they never even had to tell us they took them--I'm guessing the only reason they ever did start revealing they exist is that they thought it would inspire confidence that their grading process is a more reliable one due to grader communication between each other via the notes.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Problem is with this forum is I don't know enough about the poster (Another big issue with me).

 

 

And who exactly are you, Mr.Fly-By-Night funnybook dealer?

[comicwiz]

1. From you - The notes are CGC's property--any idea why the client would have any rights at all to them?

 

1. From me - No, the notes are a derivative property of the person that employed CGC on a work for hire basis.

 

2. From you - Still not getting the comparison--who's saying no, and who's getting damaged in the comic owner/CGC relationship with these notes being taken?

 

2. From me - a non-exclusive license, absent consideration, can be revoked at any time. A person who hires CGC to perform work under a "work for hire" basis has the right to say to CGC that they (CGC) does not have the right to sell the data associated with the book the client has paid CGC to grade - because the notes are part of the grade and in essence the new state of the book, which is a derivative product - the book is no longer considered raw, is in a plastic holder and has been graded by industry accepted specialists.

 

The notes are not the property of the person--they didn't create them, CGC created them. They own them. As stated earlier in the thread, they're usually not unique enough to fall under copyright, but they're in CGC's possession and I can't see how the client has any right to a text description of their item. Similarly, I would here like to proclaim that Jennifer Connelly is a sexy beast, but that "sexy beast" note is mine, not Jennifer's--I observed it and I wrote it. If I want to sell that evaluation of her to someone who might want to buy it, I can. Newspapers and magazines do it every day.

 

The notes are not part of the grade--CGC never promised you notes, and they never even had to tell us they took them--I'm guessing the only reason they ever did start revealing they exist is that they thought it would inspire confidence that their grading process is a more reliable one due to grader communication between each other via the notes.

 

You have to take your assumptions and place them in the strict context of how the service evolved.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not CGC used to wrap a bow with every book they sent, the fact is that the labels used to include very important descriptions about the books condition outside of the numerical evaluation.

 

When those notes disappeared from their "modernized" label, it created a groundswell of interest from collectors who wanted to make sure they didn't end up with a serious interior deterioration issue on a high value book.

 

For years, I refused to send in a valuable book to be reholdered because it would remove the mention of "rusty staples" from the label. When I eventually sold it to a boardie, the CGC grade and label functioned perfectly well as a standalone selling tool.

 

Now, with them parting out the graders notes as an upsell, it fails miserably as a standalone selling tool.

 

You can slice it and dice it anyway you want, without access to the notes the slab is nothing more than a fancy, partly translucent and overpriced food tray.

[fantastic_four]

Secondly, and more to the point, the legal(?) gray area is whether any license to resell work product has been granted to CGC via the convoluted legal jargon of the T&C document. The sticking point has nothing to do with creative rights associated with who manufactured the comic book, it's about a change in policy regarding the work product acquired under contract for a grade appraisal and what rights, if any, the owner of the comic book has after the work has been completed.

 

Ultimately, I suppose the owner could claim a right to privacy not wishing to have any information disclosed about books he or she has submitted for grading. For a dealer, this would seem counter intuitive, but full disclosure might depend on the actual grade received in contrast to what internal data was exposed in the grader's notes (some flaws being more distasteful to collectors than others). More likely, the dealer might prefer complete disclosure, allowing free dissemination of all information associated with grading his/her books. Assuming the latter, the ethical issue then falls squarely on CGC.

 

I agree that what they're doing is possibly unethical, I just can't see how it's illegal even if they had no terms and conditions stated.

[pickycollector]

[2) CGC does not necessarily downgrade books because of rusty staples

 

They do actually downgrade, and the highest grade I've seen on a comic with rusty staples is 9.2

 

I once bought a CGC 9.4 that had rust on staples.

[mndb369]

The book sold for 20% less because of the rusty staple?

 

Can I ask what the book was? Who it was bought from?

 

What should the dealer have disclosed?

 

CGC graded the book right? I don't have notes on the over 3000 books I've had CGC graded and if I knew the poster I would have questions if it was a book I sold him. Problem is with this forum is I don't know enough about the poster (Another big issue with me).

 

 

 

I can't unequivocally say the book sold for 20% less because of the rusty staple but it did sell for 20% less on auction then what I paid for it (which was a negotiated sale price online).

 

The book was a Hulk #181 - dealer's name is not important and I get that they didn't have to disclose it (it could have been consignment for all I know) - which is why making calls of disclosure can be taken out of the mix if the notes are available on the slab.

 

[fantastic_four]

What's next...a fee for scanning the CGC Holder with your

own book in it?

 

They do charge this fee. They take the scans anyway, but if you want a copy of the images, they've been charging customers for this since extremely early on--perhaps from day 1, not sure of that though, I heard of the fee for the first time I believe in 2001.

 

When someone over at CGC decided to use my comic as a coaster for their drink, when I asked them if they had a scan of the book when they received it, they told me they never took a scan of it. So either they lied and concealed it to protect their own interests, or they don't always take a scan.

 

When I brought this to Mark Haspel's attention, he told me CGC NEVER allow their staff to take food or drinks in the grading room, even though I recently found out about the past transgressions of a staff member in the QC department.

 

Hmm, dunno, I said that because the article from 2001/2002 documenting their process claimed that all books were scanned on the way in by the pre-grader as the very first thing they do. I think it was so they had something to compare it to if damage occurs, but perhaps they skip it sometimes or on books below a certain value, or maybe they just stopped it entirely since then.

[fantastic_four]

1. From you - The notes are CGC's property--any idea why the client would have any rights at all to them?

 

1. From me - No, the notes are a derivative property of the person that employed CGC on a work for hire basis.

 

2. From you - Still not getting the comparison--who's saying no, and who's getting damaged in the comic owner/CGC relationship with these notes being taken?

 

2. From me - a non-exclusive license, absent consideration, can be revoked at any time. A person who hires CGC to perform work under a "work for hire" basis has the right to say to CGC that they (CGC) does not have the right to sell the data associated with the book the client has paid CGC to grade - because the notes are part of the grade and in essence the new state of the book, which is a derivative product - the book is no longer considered raw, is in a plastic holder and has been graded by industry accepted specialists.

 

The notes are not the property of the person--they didn't create them, CGC created them. They own them. As stated earlier in the thread, they're usually not unique enough to fall under copyright, but they're in CGC's possession and I can't see how the client has any right to a text description of their item. Similarly, I would here like to proclaim that Jennifer Connelly is a sexy beast, but that "sexy beast" note is mine, not Jennifer's--I observed it and I wrote it. If I want to sell that evaluation of her to someone who might want to buy it, I can. Newspapers and magazines do it every day.

 

The notes are not part of the grade--CGC never promised you notes, and they never even had to tell us they took them--I'm guessing the only reason they ever did start revealing they exist is that they thought it would inspire confidence that their grading process is a more reliable one due to grader communication between each other via the notes.

 

You have to take your assumptions and place them in the strict context of how the service evolved.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not CGC wrapped a bow with every book they sent, the fact is that the labels used to include very important descriptions about the books condition outside of the numerical evaluation.

 

When those notes disappeared from their "modernized" label, it created a groundswell of interest from collectors who wanted to make sure they didn't end up with a serious interior deterioration issue on a high value book.

 

For years, I refused to send in a valuable book to be reholdered because it would remove the mention of "rusty staples" from the label. When I eventually sold it to a boardie, the CGC grade and label functioned perfectly well as a standalone selling tool.

 

Now, with them parting out the graders notes as an upsell, it fails miserably as a standalone selling tool.

 

You can slice it and dice it anyway you want, without access to the notes the slab is nothing more than a fancy, partly translucent and overpriced food tray.

 

Oh I agree--selling the notes is a huge mistake, I've said that at least half a dozen times already. I'm only talking here about the legality of it because it interests me.

[blazingbob]

My Profile clearly points to my website so you know exactly who I am.

 

If I hadn't met you I will still be referring to you as Mr. Jive Turkey

 

 

[mndb369]

 

It's possible for staples to rust after the book is slabbed.

 

 

Problem was this book (an Iron Fist #14. 9.6 OW-W) had no notes and was slabbed for less than a year when I bought it. The worst part is that the rust was apparent enough when looked at in hand but the scans were cleverly out of focus.

 

 

[Transplant]

The notes are not the property of the person--they didn't create them, CGC created them. They own them. As stated earlier in the thread, they're usually not unique enough to fall under copyright, but they're in CGC's possession and I can't see how the client has any right to a text description of their item.

Just b/c you keep repeating the same thing, doesn't make it so.

[hockey&comicsguy]

When I make steel castings for my customers they provide a blueprint, we build the pattern equipment (which they own) and we then sell them the part. But to get that part made properly it has to be engineered a certain way. That engineering belongs to us. We don't tell them how we got from point A to point B. And if they ever want their pattern back, we strip that pattern of any indications of how we got from point A to point B. They can ask us how we did it, and they can even pay us up front for that info. But we don't provide it free of charge. Now perhaps this isn't an applicable comparison because it's a manufactured good and not a graded comic?

 

All I know is after reading this entire thread I find it fascinating and can't seem to make up my mind. Part of me is kind of miffed at CGC and the other part of me thinks they have every right to do what they're doing. Again, I don't know.

[mndb369]

 

That's surprising, and the highest grade I've ever heard. Any chance you could point us to this book as it definitely breaks ground on my understanding of grade thresholds allowed for this defect. The fact that it was mentioned in the notes eliminates the possibility that they rusted in a fireproof safe after the book was graded.

 

The first book (a 9.2 Hulk 181) had the rusty staple notes. The 9.6 IF 14 did not have notes.

[Marty Mann]

My question is and has been not how they arrived at the

grade but what is wrong with the book?

 

mm

[comicwiz]

1. From you - The notes are CGC's property--any idea why the client would have any rights at all to them?

 

1. From me - No, the notes are a derivative property of the person that employed CGC on a work for hire basis.

 

2. From you - Still not getting the comparison--who's saying no, and who's getting damaged in the comic owner/CGC relationship with these notes being taken?

 

2. From me - a non-exclusive license, absent consideration, can be revoked at any time. A person who hires CGC to perform work under a "work for hire" basis has the right to say to CGC that they (CGC) does not have the right to sell the data associated with the book the client has paid CGC to grade - because the notes are part of the grade and in essence the new state of the book, which is a derivative product - the book is no longer considered raw, is in a plastic holder and has been graded by industry accepted specialists.

 

The notes are not the property of the person--they didn't create them, CGC created them. They own them. As stated earlier in the thread, they're usually not unique enough to fall under copyright, but they're in CGC's possession and I can't see how the client has any right to a text description of their item. Similarly, I would here like to proclaim that Jennifer Connelly is a sexy beast, but that "sexy beast" note is mine, not Jennifer's--I observed it and I wrote it. If I want to sell that evaluation of her to someone who might want to buy it, I can. Newspapers and magazines do it every day.

 

The notes are not part of the grade--CGC never promised you notes, and they never even had to tell us they took them--I'm guessing the only reason they ever did start revealing they exist is that they thought it would inspire confidence that their grading process is a more reliable one due to grader communication between each other via the notes.

 

You have to take your assumptions and place them in the strict context of how the service evolved.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not CGC wrapped a bow with every book they sent, the fact is that the labels used to include very important descriptions about the books condition outside of the numerical evaluation.

 

When those notes disappeared from their "modernized" label, it created a groundswell of interest from collectors who wanted to make sure they didn't end up with a serious interior deterioration issue on a high value book.

 

For years, I refused to send in a valuable book to be reholdered because it would remove the mention of "rusty staples" from the label. When I eventually sold it to a boardie, the CGC grade and label functioned perfectly well as a standalone selling tool.

 

Now, with them parting out the graders notes as an upsell, it fails miserably as a standalone selling tool.

 

You can slice it and dice it anyway you want, without access to the notes the slab is nothing more than a fancy, partly translucent and overpriced food tray.

 

Oh I agree--selling the notes is a huge mistake, I've said that at least half a dozen times already. I'm only talking here about the legality of it because it interests me.

 

The gamification of grading already exploited how to bypass graders notes. I brought it up when I discovered this book. I'm sure the book was intentionally submitted through a specific tier of service which didn't come with graders notes.

 

For those who will respond to this change by requesting to not have graders notes taken during submission, and/or resold at a later time, they will probably suggest submitting them through economy or whatever tier doesn't come with graders notes.

[hockey&comicsguy]

My question is and has been not how they arrived at the

grade but what is wrong with the book?

 

mm

 

In a sense are those not one in the same?

[blazingbob]

The issue of disclosure is now an issue because CGC is now charging for the notes.

 

Not the dealers fault and frankly I have submitted over 10,000+ books.

 

By the time I get the book am I really going to ponder over it and describe every defect I think I see or that CGC downgraded for?

 

What if I bought it already graded?

 

I have dealt in the High grade market for years. The idea that as a seller I have to know each "pet peeve" list of every collector is one reason why some dealers avoid this market.

 

Yes, CGC is making it harder for me to sell CGC books if they charge for grading notes.

 

 

[comicwiz]

The issue of disclosure is now an issue because CGC is now charging for the notes.

 

Not the dealers fault and frankly I have submitted over 10,000+ books.

 

By the time I get the book am I really going to ponder over it and describe every defect I think I see or that CGC downgraded for?

 

What if I bought it already graded?

 

I have dealt in the High grade market for years. The idea that as a seller I have to know each "pet peeve" list of every collector is one reason why some dealers avoid this market.

 

Yes, CGC is making it harder for me to sell CGC books if they charge for grading notes.

 

 

Here Bob:

 

eBay: 20' Flamethrower, Flame Cannon, advertising and Halloween Haunted house prop

 

Make sure to take some video and post it for us plebs. Maybe for full effect, go with some Twisted Sister as choice background music. (thumbs u

[Marty Mann]

As a Seller how will you handle the request from a buyer for

Grader Notes on a specific book?

 

mm

[Dark Prime 0]

 

Yes, CGC is making it harder for me to sell CGC books if they charge for grading notes.

 

this begs the question......are you going to stop/slow down on subing bc it's now a hassel to sell the cgc book or you not going to change how you sub books

 

bc of your planing on stopping/slowing down imo you should call cgc and let them know your decission so they can see the consaquens of their actions with a high profile dealer