Legitimate Grading Competition On The Way? posted by bagofleas

[CSJournals-migration]

A new order?

 

Let's face it, While we all love CGC and what they've done for the interest in our hobby, they have been woefully lacking in the modernization department.

 

I'm sure each one of us could come up with at least one thing that CGC could do better. But until now, they have had no reason to do so.

 

Since January, 2000 CGC has been revolutionizing our favorite hobby as the premier comic book grading company. There have been, and still are others out there, like PGX and the newer Vault grading companies, but CGC has continued to be where most people send their books. Arguably 90% of comic books are submitted for grading through CGC.

 

With such a stranglehold on the grading market for so many years, CGC has done little in the way of updates and upgrades. They did manage to change the look of their labels once, almost five years after using the older labels. This was probably the last great, significant improvement to any of their service.

 

But now, things may be on the cusp of changing. I am referring to Steve Borock starting up his own book grading company, CBCS. They will be accepting their first submissions at the Indy PopCon at the end of this month, which makes me almost wish I could go.

 

I'm sure there are many different opinions and outlooks by many of us here on the registry, but I personally believe this will be a good thing, regardless of how it all pans out.

 

Why? Because competition breeds innovation.

 

The biggest reason for the lack of any real competition to CGC up to this point has been a lack of established integrity. If anyone has a chance to challenge CGC, it's Steve Borock, former President of CGC, as well as it's first primary grader. Steve is one of the most respected and knowledgeable individuals in the industry.

 

Do I think this will lead to the demise of CGC? Absolutely not. What I believe it WILL do is cause CGC to finally take a long, hard look at many aspects of their services.

 

I'm sure many of you will make suggestions as to what improvements could be made, and now I believe CGC will need to seriously consider many of these recommendations from us. We are, after all, what keeps them going.

 

As for some of my thoughts in this regard, I can put forth a few items:

 

1 - Quality of materials.

The sturdiness of the outer casings, the quality of the label's paper stock, etc.

 

2 - Restoration determination and accuracy.

This has been a very contentious issue lately with CGC. I am also very curious as to how Mr. Borock will handle the pressing of books. CGC has determined that pressing is NOT restoration. I wonder if Steve will agree.

 

3 - Quality Control improvements.

This is another area that CGC needs to work on. There are times where I believe QC is not even applied to invoices other than to glance over the graded books quickly one time and pass them on to shipping. Mistakes in QC have increased in the last couple of years.

 

4 - Accurate and consistent turnaround times.

This is an area that Steve Borock is attacking head-on. He is "guaranteeing" turnaround times for books submitted through his company, it will be interesting to see if this happens and how it affects CGC's procedures on this issue.

 

5 - updated and more modern online software.

This is a biggie. The software CGC uses for all of its online chat, boards and registry is about ten years out of date. It really needs to be modernized. Being able to link through and apply changes made on the registry to other social media apps alone would be a welcome change.

 

The one big thing that CGC has had going for it over anyone else is the online Registry. The way it breeds competition among collectors and allows us to show off our books and sets, as well as have the opportunity to receive awards for our collections, is a huge benefit to CGC.

 

It will be interesting to see if Steve works something like this into his company eventually. To do so would surely be the biggest single boost to his chances of overthrowing the big boy on the block.

 

CGC really needs to look into updating its online presence for the modern era of mobile inter-connectivity. I very much hope this competition brings about a change in this area.

 

It will probably take a couple of years for any real competition to develop between these two companies, but I am hopeful that Steve's re-infiltration into the grading industry will benefit us all. If CGC can see this as a legitimate threat to its near monopoly of the grading market, then maybe we can start to see some serious changes to their practices and software applications.

 

I know some have been skeptical in the past about CGC's grading accuracy, but the truth is, this is the one area that will be equal between the two companies in my opinion. It shouldn't affect either company's status in the market.

 

I think it will come down to customer service, turnaround times and all the little aesthetic extras applied to their services that will ultimately determine how it all ends up.

 

CGC, the ball is in your court.

 

Below is a preliminary example of what a CBCS graded book will look like. Let's discuss, everyone.

 

See more journals by bagofleas

[Tnerb]

I will eventually write about this later. Good viewpoint, and as others have pointed out on a journal of mine, there is a larger thread going on about this, but it is nice to see a longer viewpoint.

[Triskelion]

Nice to see a new "thread" started on this subject. Generating so much discussion in the boards, FB pages etc. A few thoughts:

 

1) If CBCS manages to keep its promise of quicker turnaround times in the future, this alone would be a step change improvement over CGC. It's pretty obvious, reading through various posts, that this is a major angst against CGC, arguably moreso than consistency in quality/grading etc. Couple this with credibility (having the former president of CGC start this up adds to this, big time), setting up its own registry (which PGX still doesn't have), using current generation software/apps, and reasonable pricing levels (this is important for a start up), CBCS promises to become quite a formidable force in the hobby.

 

2) A recent thread in the CGC Comic Fans FB page talked about slabbing unwitnessed, pre-signed raw books. I understand CGC's strict rules around this. But there's got to be a solution for the thousands of legitimate Dynamic Forces signed books etc out there, whose values have obviously dropped as a result of CGC SS but which could now be unlocked. Can CBCS do something ala PSA and actually hire independent autograph authenticators, who can easily distinguish real from fake signatures and slab these as legitimately "signed" (qualified or otherwise) as opposed to CGC's "has the name blah blah written on cover" approach? If it can, I'm pretty sure it'll be swamped with hundreds if not thousands of signed books with COA's etc submissions, practically overnight.

 

3) It took several years before CGC vertically integrated with CCS. Can CBCS do the same in the near term, with an eye towards reducing total cost of pressing + slabbing in comparison with CGC?

 

4) Investing in higher quality materials i.e stronger casing, if possible even 98-99% UV proof acrylic.

 

5) CBCS can consider a strategic alliance with someone like PCGS (major competitor of NGC), to realize synergies such as those realized by CGC as being part of the bigger CCG umbrella. Reduced overheads etc which of course will also support lower costs.

 

The above to me are ripe opportunities which CBCS can capitalize on, in theory, if it were to try and gain more solid ground against CGC, better than PGX or Vault. That said, CGC should be able to do all of these also (except perhaps for no. 3 and no. 5), and with the added advantage of being the predominant market player if I were them I'd do so immediately before they wake up one morning and realize that they've lost a big chunk of the market to CBCS.

 

In any event and irrespective of what happens between the two, I'm hoping this will all translate to improved products and services to fans and hobbyists like us, in the long run!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lookin4Newsstands]

Any chance that Treasury Edition size books will be grading by one of these companies?

[Brandon Shepherd]

I for one am excited about this, I know it is very early and only time will tell. It will take time for submissions to come and then have those examples hit the market. As for when CGC first appeared, it was the big time books, the Golden Age pedigrees, that were first to be submitted. I'm anxious to see what types of books we will see first in CBCS holders. If there is a CBCS gallery, it will take time to fill with special images.

 

I saw a comment on a thread recently about comics being a young hobby, this is true, especially when compared to coin collecting, the hobby that started all hobbies if you ask me. Aside from the thousands of years of coin collecting, coins have been certified and encapsulated since the 1980s. Coin grading services services like NGC and PCGS are well respected in the industry and there is quite a bit of reslabbing back and forth that goes on, one collector wants a run in NGC holders only, then the coins can be upgraded and reholdered in PCGS holders to be sold to another collector. Again, I know it will take time, but I wonder if CBCS works, then will we see something similar to this with comics? Where certain books go back and forth between company holders.

 

I have also spoken with several coin dealers over the years, I do not collect coins but I can start a conversation about comparing certification services. When I tell coin collectors about half a year turn around times, they tell me that is unacceptable. On a side note, one of the grading services a has software that can scan a coin and determine if that particular coin has been graded already or not by the company, I'm not sure which one does this, so there is an example of technology for you that our young hobby does not have.

 

Coins and comics are different of course, but we would not have CGC without it. Another thing I will be curious about, and I know its early, but lets say I wanted to crack out my pedigree books and send them to CBCS, will the CGC labels be acceptable documentation of the pedigree designation for them? Like I said, it's a bit early, I'll take a look at their web site when it is up and see for myself.

 

I'm excited for this, I cannot wait to see what see the difference in holder quality, I really hope this works out, I'm prepared to be patient in the long run. I also like the label look, very professional.

 

[vane]

Any chance that Treasury Edition size books will be grading by one of these companies?

 

I called CBCS and they told me that Treasuries will NOT be graded. They said the cost is too high. That's unfortunate because that would be a nice niche in the market.

[bagofleas]

I was pretty sure that Treasuries would not be done through them, they are just too cumbersome and thereby, expensive to deal with.

 

As far as Pedigrees go, I assume that if you send the CGC graded book to them, still in its casing, they will honor a pedigree declaration.

 

The signatures will be a more complex subject, I imagine. I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to approve sigs of an already graded CGC SS book, as long as the book is still encased. But I don't know about the Dynamic Forces issues. Without original witnesses, it will be hard for them to acknowledge true sigs.

 

They could have a service where they have a legitimate Signature authentication service approve the sigs, and pass that certification cost onto the consumer. I'm sure for them to do that would cause the very same high influx of submissions suggested earlier.

 

One of the things I'm interested in, is seeing if they will have variations of their labels like CGCs yellow, purple, green, etc., or if the labels will all look the same but have more info on them to peruse in order to determine what's actually in the case. I haven't heard anything on this yet.

 

I DO know that they will be offering up to a 5% credit for books shipped out after their promised turnaround times. Very interesting.

 

If CBCS starts doing some new things that everyone likes, then eventually CGC will have to see about copying them to keep their customers coming. Especially if Steve's company begins to make significant strides in the market.

 

I am very hopeful that we, the collectors, will benefit greatly from this possible newfound competition.

[Beamer]

I think it's good to get a real competition out there.

[SW3D]

Awesome Journal!

 

I had no idea there was new competition afoot. I've been plucking nylon strings too long to even care.

 

But I do care. That image you provided of the CBCS looks pretty cool! It has a vintage look reminiscent of the CGC's old blue label which I am a fan of. And they provide restoration notes on the label... that is very very cool!

 

In my humble opinion, if CBCS does things right (and from the small example they look pretty good), they will be a legitimate threat to CGC. But their reputation management and reception and response to collectors feedback is critical. If they could avoid the pitfalls of PGX and even CGC, they may capture a significant share of the Comic Book Third Party Grading market. But this is predicated on giving collectors what they want and need.

 

What do collectors want and need? Well most of what CGC is already providing is good enough... but there are obviously hundreds of things we can all think of.

 

I for one would love to receive all grader notes, FREE of charge. I am curious at what flaws may have been detected in every third party graded comic. In my humble opinion, CGC should be already doing this and allowing access to those notes for FREE. Like CBCS, such notes should be on the label, however if it is too extensive, then the website should provide it... but for FREE!

 

In addition, if a comic has been resubmitted, the old notes pertaining to the original grading (registration number) shall carry-over to the new grading notes with a historic timeline of grader notes. Therefore if a comic had a 9.4 grade in a prior slab, was cracked and resubmitted for signing and maybe pressing, then the old notes and the new notes should be made available for everyone to see (through access of verification via registration numbers). Maybe the new grader notes will read, "this comic was previously graded with registration number such and such, received a 9.4 grade, with the following grader notes "front cover minor spine stress fractures", and now has been resubmitted, given a 9.8 grade with the following new grader remarks... "Pressed at CSC, signature of John Smith witnessed by CGC at ComicCon on January 1, 2014, received grade 9.8 in accordance with the following grading standards, blah, blah, blah, etc"

 

Now, in order for this regulation to work, it would require the cooperation from all collectors cracking slabs and resubmitting books, and the nearly impossible challenge for the Grading Companies to prove a submitted book has been previously graded and by whom if collectors fail to provide full disclosure.

 

Now I know this is a complicated thing, but for me, it starts with a grading company's setting the highest standards and reinforcing that standard... and to have each invoice reflect such a standard by asking hard-hitting questions and request the registration number of the cracked slab if it were the case. This will also greatly help the accuracy of CGC Census Numbers. Think of how many books have been reslabbed, and the CGC Census numbers are askew as a result?

 

For example, if I buy a CGC Blue Label graded 9.4... crack it open, have it pressed and signed, without telling CGC anything about the comics prior grade or history, the old registry number will still exist, and a new number will be assigned for the new yellow label. And the CGC Census will still maintain the old 9.4 Blue Label in population, and add another for the new grade and yellow label. This is a matter of the complete cooperation of both collectors and third party grading companies working honorably... but it begins with the CGC and any other Third Party Grading Company reinforcing its standards to its customer base, by asking for greater transparency and by putting something in their submission forms/invoices by blatantly requesting background of the comic being submitted.

 

It could be several questions like...

 

Are you the original owner?

Yes? No?

 

Where did you purchase this comic?

LCS? Online Auction? Private Sale? other?

 

To your knowledge, was this comic previously graded?

Yes? No?

If yes, Which grading company graded it and what is the registration number assigned?

 

I can imagine, with multiple submissions per invoice, it could get annoying, but I for one would not have a problem with it.

 

I believe this might help somewhat, but it will require the complete cooperation of all involved... but it begins with the grading companies.

 

Just my two cents.

 

SW3D

 

[newshane]

Sometimes I think I'm the only guy out there that's satisfied with CGC.

 

I will stick with CGC for the foreseeable future.

 

Steve has a ton of credibility, but with over 300 CGC slabs in my collection, I feel like I'm in it too deep to change.

 

I do like the new company's label design, but I like the CGC design even better.

[bagofleas]

To be honest, I too am far too invested in CGC to start using another company now as well.

 

What I am hoping for is that the newfound competition will finally force CGC to make some much needed tweaks to their materials, services and software.

 

I too like the CGC labels better. And their grading prowess is just fine by me. CBCS will only be up to "as good" on the grading front in my opinion, not better. So it just comes down to all of these other things.

 

I want to keep using CGC, and hopefully this will all help us to get better overall service from them.

[Goldeneye]

This to me seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. My guess is CGC will sue Steve Borock and serve him with a cease and desist letter. You can't be apart of company steal all their secrets and start your own company.

[Logan510]

This to me seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. My guess is CGC will sue Steve Borock and serve him with a cease and desist letter. You can't be apart of company steal all their secrets and start your own company.

 

Why do you keep posting this garbage?

[Jeffro.]

This to me seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. My guess is CGC will sue Steve Borock and serve him with a cease and desist letter. You can't be apart of company steal all their secrets and start your own company.

 

Why do you keep posting this garbage?

 

Because no one ever in the history of business ever left one company to open a competing company, or if they did, they were sued into oblivion by the original company.

 

Yeah, that's what happened.

[Goldeneye]

This to me seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. My guess is CGC will sue Steve Borock and serve him with a cease and desist letter. You can't be apart of company steal all their secrets and start your own company.

 

Why do you keep posting this garbage?

So when are the Cubs going to win the World Series

[mdube16]

This to me seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. My guess is CGC will sue Steve Borock and serve him with a cease and desist letter. You can't be apart of company steal all their secrets and start your own company.

 

Why do you keep posting this garbage?

 

Because no one ever in the history of business ever left one company to open a competing company, or if they did, they were sued into oblivion by the original company.

 

Yeah, that's what happened.

 

James Spence left PSA/DNA and started JSA. The competition brought the pricing down substantially over time.

[Logan510]

This to me seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen. My guess is CGC will sue Steve Borock and serve him with a cease and desist letter. You can't be apart of company steal all their secrets and start your own company.

 

Why do you keep posting this garbage?

So when are the Cubs going to win the World Series

 

 

 

 

Low blow

[surfer99]

I didn't know about this until I heard about it from Tnerb so I had to check out your journal BOF. I'm not a fan of the label and I think Steve has a long uphill climb ahead of him to gain the fan base and cred of CGC, but I wish him luck. Who knows, maybe I would buy a CBCS book someday...if for no other reason than to get a good deal on one, crack it, press it, and send it to CGC.

 

 

 

[Jeffro.]

I didn't know about this until I heard about it from Tnerb so I had to check out your journal BOF. I'm not a fan of the label and I think Steve has a long uphill climb ahead of him to gain the fan base and cred of CGC, but I wish him luck. Who knows, maybe I would buy a CBCS book someday...if for no other reason than to get a good deal on one, crack it, press it, and send it to CGC.

 

There's no question that Steve will be swimming upstream on this one. However, because it is Steve Borock, he has a level of credibility right out of the gate that would be hard to match had this company been started by someone else. Should be interesting to see how it plays out.

[vane]

If CGC wants to stay ahead of this new grading company they should start grading Treasuries. They have the money to do it.