Yellow Claw #1 - 1st SA marvel?

[rjpb]

rjpb further enquires: Is TTA #27 really a Silver Age book? After all, "The Man in the Ant-hill" was not originally meant to be a super-hero origin story."

 

 

The Spider-man story in Amazing Fantsay #15 was also a thow away idea that was not really intended to go anywhere as well.

 

 

There is a difference; Spider-Man was clearly a costumed character in the Superhero mold, whereas Hank Pym was another brilliant scientist in the pre-hero mold, who figured out a way to use his intellect to defeat a threat to mankind. It would be clear to a casual reader that Spider-man was a departure from the fantasy stories that AAF had been running and something more akin to the FF and Thor, where "The Man in the Anthill" would have been seen as nothing special for TTA.

 

Certainly TTA #27 is part of the Marvel era as Pym quickly became a regular player in the Marvel Universe in his many guises, but it also serves as an arguement for includeing all pre-hero Kirby/Ditko books as part of Marvel's SA ( or at least those with 12¢ covers), as it is only in retrospect that TTA#27 is something apart from issues #26 & #28 (aside from the price change with #28).

 

 

Do DC SA collectors consider Showcase #5 a SA book, as it comes after the Flash's first app., but in content is more like issues 1-3?

[Forbush-Man]

Good points, RPJB!

 

I still consider the books with both Kirby & Ditko art to be part of the Silver Age of Marvel Comics & the true begining of the Silver Age of Marvel.

 

Despite what anyone one else feels, that's how I view it, and that's how I collect them!

 

I just feel that (and this was the begining of this thread) The Yellow Claw was too far before the coming of Ditko/Kirby & therefore not the start of the Silver Age.

 

I would, none the less, be thrilled to own the entire Yellow Claw run!

[Forbush-Man]

In my book, the earliest start of the Silver Age of Marvel Comics begins with Strange Worlds # 1.

 

Why? Because it is the first book which features the two biggest influnces of Marvel's Silver age, Ditko & Kirby (in the same book, for the first time) and written by Stan Lee. It's also the first monster/SciFi book featurig both Ditko & Kirby.

 

To me, this is the start of it all.

[*Bronze age fan*]

While there is general agreement that Fantastic Four #1 is the start of the Marvel Age - in that it begins a cohesive continuity of costumed characters that would come to be known as the Marvel Universe, I don't know that it can be considered the first SA Marvel, even given the super-hero centric origins of the term "silver age". Beyond the often dubious "prototypes" found in pre-hero Marvels, the Kirby/Ditko/Lee stories that dominated the "fantasy" output of Marvel from 1958 on, have more in common, both visually and thematically, with early Marvel superhero books than they do with the post-code Atlas output that preceeded them. I can't see any arguement that they are not "silver age" books.

 

The Atlas revival of the mid 50s would have to be considered the last gasp of the GA, as both the numbering of the 3 hero titles and what little continuity there was were obviously carried over from the 1949 demise of the Timely hero books. So where does that leave Yellow Claw #1-#4? A title that predates the pre-hero fantasy books, but postdates even those last few post-code issues of the Sub-Mariner. I don't know that the subsequent retconning of the Yellow Claw and Jimmy Woo into the Marvel Universe alone would make these books part of the Marvel Age, but the Yellow Claw was no doubt a "super-villian" from the start, and a continuing character as well, close enough to a superhero book, that it can't be lumped in with the rest of Atlas' various genre titles and dismissed as irrelevant to SA discussions.

 

The first issue, with it's cold war espionage storylines, and Joe Maneely art, looks like it has more in common with the Atlas "spy" books from the early-mid 50s, but the Kirby art and the inclusion of more sci-fi tinged stories in issues #2 thru #4, give these books a "silver-age" feel closer to the pre-hero books that were soon to appear.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Responding to ten year old threads. I was thinking this same thing a few weeks ago. Was Yellow Claw the first move towards Super Hero's for Marvel?

[VintageComics]

It's an interesting idea.

 

Certainly, ages didn't change overnight and there was a lot of build up for each change both behind the scenes and on the comic pages.

 

It certainly looks like Yellow Claw was an early part of that transition. The books have always appealed to me and this is probably why (as I love that Silver Age flavor).

 

 

 

 

[bronze johnny]

The Silver Age is also defined as a period where new concepts were introduced. The idea that the SA is responsible for the superhero revival relies on the accepted notion that prior to Showcase 4, Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, and their related books existed in some other comic book spectrum? Superman and his related books were the most popular superhero comics sold as early 1960s circulation data demonstrates. DC's rewarding Lois Lane and Challengers of the Unknown series before the Flash supports the contention that the publisher had greater faith in the success of these two books. This brings me to Jack Kirby, who happens to have an omnipresent role during the period circa 1956 - 1961. Here we witness Kirby introducing a book for DC that happens to be the first original SA concept which juxtaposed elements of the new team of heroes with "pre-hero attributes." Elements of sci-fi and monsters that are viewed on the both sides of Marvel-Atlas and DC "aisle." Moreover, were the "guys" on each side of the aisle looking across at one another's work? Should we doubt that DC and Atlas-Marvel did not influence one another? And who could forget Kirby's role at Atlas? Richard, I'm not surprised by your considering Yellow Claw 1 as a candidate for the first SA book. Interesting to say the least. And the fact that Kirby had a role in this series as he did in Strange Worlds and the Challies raises the question as to what degree of influence did Kirby have on the beginnings of the SA? Which is an underlying question here.

[Sqeggs]

I'm an outlier wrt to the first SA book. To my mind, it's FF 1, which represented a clear break not only with what Marvel had been doing, but with what DC had been doing as well.

 

I've never quite understood the hoopla over Showcase 4. If DC, like Marvel, had discontinued all their super hero books, then Showcase 4 would have been a real milestone. But the Batman/Superman books had continued rolling. The early Flash stories weren't qualitatively different, in my view, from the Batman/Superman stories. To be the beginning of a new age, I think a book has to be a greater break with what came immediately before -- or what is happening contemporaneously -- than Showcase 4 is.

 

The book also needs, imho, some continuity with what follows, which I think rules out Yellow Claw. It's hard to see how a book can be considered the beginning of a new age when it only runs for four issues and then is largely forgotten. I can't remember anyone in ye olden days who considered it more than just another cool Atlas book.

[VintageComics]

I've never quite understood the hoopla over Showcase 4.

 

In retrospect, because there were many cool things that came after, Showcase #4 may not look as special today. But if you talk to people who picked it up off the newsstand it was pretty special to them back in 1956. It stood out, apparently.

 

 

[seredynskib]

In my opinion, you cannot simply say that only one book started the Silver Age for Marvel. I believe there were several books that led toward the start of the "Marvel Age of Comics."

 

1.) Strange Worlds 1 (Dec 1958) - 1st issue to feature Lee,Kirby & Ditko together. First Kirby Atlas book after his Golden Age departure from Timely/Atlas.

 

2.) Amazing Adventures 1 (June 1961) - 1st Marvel Superhero attempt with Dr. Droom

 

3.) Journey Into Mystery 69 & Patsy Walker 95 (June 1961) - 1st two books that displayed the MC logo on their cover. Atlas is now Marvel Comics. Both of these books came out the same time as Amazing Adventures 1, but AA would remain Atlas until issue 3.

 

4.) Amazing Adventures 3 (Aug 1961) - 1st Dr. Droom after switching from Atlas to Marvel.

 

5.) Fantastic Four 1 (Nov 1961) - 1st Marvel Superhero team. Unofficial start of the "Marvel Age of Comics."

[Ameri]

When I was a kid in the 60's, I always thought that Black Knight 1 was the first Marvel hero as I used to pick up Fantasy Masterpieces and the old BK stories were repinted there, and then Marvel brought him back in different incarnations.

 

 

[bronze johnny]

Let me add to this list which could also generally be a "Jack Kirby Timeline" towards FF 1:

 

1.) 10/56 Yellow Claw 1 (Maneely) (Atlas) (Richard's proposed 1st SA book)

 

2.) 12/56 Yellow Claw 2 (Kirby art) (Atlas)

 

3.) 2/57 Yellow Claw 3 (Kirby art) (Atlas)

 

4.) 1-2/57 Showcase 6 (DC)

 

5.) 4-5/58 Challengers of the Unknown 1 - 10-11/58 Challengers of the Unknown 4 (DC)

 

6.) Strange Worlds 1 (Dec 1958) - 1st issue to feature Lee,Kirby & Ditko together. First Kirby Atlas book after his Golden Age departure from Timely/Atlas.

 

7.)Amazing Adventures 1 (June 1961) - 1st Marvel Superhero attempt with Dr. Droom

 

8.) Journey Into Mystery 69 & Patsy Walker 95 (June 1961) - 1st two books that displayed the MC logo on their cover. Atlas is now Marvel Comics. Both of these books came out the same time as Amazing Adventures 1, but AA would remain Atlas until issue 3.

 

9.) Amazing Adventures 3 (Aug 1961) - 1st Dr. Droom after switching from Atlas to Marvel.

 

10.) Fantastic Four 1 (Nov 1961) - 1st Marvel Superhero team. Unofficial start of the "Marvel Age of Comics."

 

 

 

[*Bronze age fan*]

When I was a kid in the 60's, I always thought that Black Knight 1 was the first Marvel hero as I used to pick up Fantasy Masterpieces and the old BK stories were repinted there, and then Marvel brought him back in different incarnations.

 

 

 

 

Black Knight #1 was released in 1955. Two years before Yellow Claw. Could this be the first issues that they moved towards Super Heros. These two series were both also reprinted in the same trade. So Marvel seemed to lump them both together.

 

The first silver super hero comic does not have to be a ground breaking comic that everyone wants and shoots up in price because we think this is the first Marvel silver age comic.

 

Just wanted other collectors opinion on this....and I saw a ten year old thread where someone was thinking the same thing I was.

[VintageComics]

They are all independent strands of history woven into the early tapestry of the Silver Age!

[seredynskib]

They are all independent strands of history woven into the early tapestry of the Silver Age!

 

[rjpb]

They are all independent strands of history woven into the early tapestry of the Silver Age!

 

 

Well put!

[*Bronze age fan*]

They are all independent strands of history woven into the early tapestry of the Silver Age!

 

 

Well put!

 

I agree. To the OP, how do you feel about the Black Knight being Marvels first step towards Silver age super hero comics?

[rjpb]

They are all independent strands of history woven into the early tapestry of the Silver Age!

 

 

Well put!

 

I agree. To the OP, how do you feel about the Black Knight being Marvels first step towards Silver age super hero comics?

 

I don't put the book in quite the same category as Yellow Claw, even though the SA versions were clearly inspired by the Atlas character, who was retconned into being their ancestor (I'm not sure when this happened exactly, but I'm guessing the original Iron Man villain was not initially designed as a descendant). Jimmy Woo and the Yellow Claw were easily incorporated into Marvel's superhero universe as they were, and there is little difficulty imaging the 1950s comic as existing in a world that spawned the FF and subsequent heroes, especially after Kirby got involved. Black Knight is more like Viking Prince, a pre-Silver character from a distant historical era ( a popular genre in the mid 50s) who was later incorporated into the larger historical continuity.

 

Also The first Atlas BK books were published contemporaneously with the last issues of Atlas era Sub-mariner, so considering the title as a step towards the Marvel Age of superheroes, opens the question as to whether the Atlas revival was a last gasp of the Timely era, or a false start to the Marvel Age.

 

As Roy aptly put it , they are all threads in a greater tapestry, and I think much of the collecting community has moved beyond the idea that the GA and SA have clearly defined beginnings and ends, and that the period roughly corresponding with the 1950s was continual transition from one era to the other.

[Sqeggs]

They are all independent strands of history woven into the early tapestry of the Silver Age!

 

 

Well put!

 

I agree. To the OP, how do you feel about the Black Knight being Marvels first step towards Silver age super hero comics?

 

I don't put the book in quite the same category as Yellow Claw, even though the SA versions were clearly inspired by the Atlas character, who was retconned into being their ancestor (I'm not sure when this happened exactly, but I'm guessing the original Iron Man villain was not initially designed as a descendant). Jimmy Woo and the Yellow Claw were easily incorporated into Marvel's superhero universe as they were, and there is little difficulty imaging the 1950s comic as existing in a world that spawned the FF and subsequent heroes, especially after Kirby got involved. Black Knight is more like Viking Prince, a pre-Silver character from a distant historical era ( a popular genre in the mid 50s) who was later incorporated into the larger historical continuity.

 

Also The first Atlas BK books were published contemporaneously with the last issues of Atlas era Sub-mariner, so considering the title as a step towards the Marvel Age of superheroes, opens the question as to whether the Atlas revival was a last gasp of the Timely era, or a false start to the Marvel Age.

 

As Roy aptly put it , they are all threads in a greater tapestry, and I think much of the collecting community has moved beyond the idea that the GA and SA have clearly defined beginnings and ends, and that the period roughly corresponding with the 1950s was continual transition from one era to the other.

 

I think that's probably true. Kind of like the reaction in history to the old school text notion that a gong sounded in 476 with the fall of Rome and the Dark Ages began. Or another gong sounded in 1500 and the Renaissance began.

 

Still, though, I would argue that the publication of FF 1 represented an important break with what had come before and that event is worth commemorating, whether we call it the beginning of the Sliver Age or not.

[Sqeggs]

I've never quite understood the hoopla over Showcase 4.

 

In retrospect, because there were many cool things that came after, Showcase #4 may not look as special today. But if you talk to people who picked it up off the newsstand it was pretty special to them back in 1956. It stood out, apparently.

 

 

You are probably right, although it's hard to see why they would have had that reaction. Marvel/Atlas had tried a superhero revival just a couple of years before. DC had a whole family of Batman/Superman books still being published. Were the Flash stories strikingly different in writing or art than what was appearing in those books?

 

Maybe you are right that what in hindsight seem like likely pretty similar approaches in Flash and Batman/Superman struck readers at that time as being significantly different.

[rjpb]

I've never quite understood the hoopla over Showcase 4.

 

In retrospect, because there were many cool things that came after, Showcase #4 may not look as special today. But if you talk to people who picked it up off the newsstand it was pretty special to them back in 1956. It stood out, apparently.

 

 

You are probably right, although it's hard to see why they would have had that reaction. Marvel/Atlas had tried a superhero revival just a couple of years before. DC had a whole family of Batman/Superman books still being published. Were the Flash stories strikingly different in writing or art than what was appearing in those books?

 

Maybe you are right that what in hindsight seem like likely pretty similar approaches in Flash and Batman/Superman struck readers at that time as being significantly different.

 

Yeah, I wonder how much of that specialness is in retrospect, as Superhero comics never went completely away and other characters had reappeared in fits and starts around the same time as well, not just the Timely heroes, but Blue Beetle, Phantom Lady and The Flame as well. The last issue of Plastic Man was on the stands a month after Showcase #4. Showcase #4 being enshrined as the start of the SA has a lot to do with fandom of the 1960s when the terms Golden Age and Silver Age were first put into use. They saw the revamped Flash as the retrospective harbinger of a new age of superheroes that didn't really take off until the early 60s. It wasn't that readers picked up Showcase #4 in the summer of 1956 and thought, "Superheroes are making a comeback!", but that collectors in the summer of 1965 thought "Superheroes have made a comeback!, and I guess it started with Showcase #4".