I tried to make it through 55 pages but.....

[Bullet123]

there is nothing wrong with being diligent with your purchases, that is why I disagree with the no return on CGC policy that most dealers have. Scans do not tell the whole truth. I am not being cavalier in my attitude, just being realistic that it is more important for you the consumer to be mindful of what you buy than have the CGC become the "police of the comic world".

 

Just a question on that particular book, what is it that bugs you so much? the fact that someone bought a 7.0 and got a 9.2 upon resub or that the before and after grades are so far apart. too strict on the first and too lenient on the second submission or that CGC should have penalized the second submission because they did the first and could inconclusively have known that this was the other submission.

[garthgantu]

Great post, Scott - that pretty much sums it up!

 

Now that CGC is about to leap into the pressing biz, directly or indirectly thru a 'subsidiary' or 'sister company' or whatever, I'm more convinced than ever that their "criteria" for what is and isn't restoration has always been based on convenience, rather than any true concern for the hobby.

 

I've no doubt that at some future date, advancements in restoration "technology" or techniques will enable enterprising souls out there to "enhance" books in other ways that CGC will not be able to detect. I wonder if CGC will just fold those into its "services" too?

 

(And don't split hairs with me about whether it's CGC or CCG or STFU Inc. - that's like Halliburton saying "well, WE didn't steal $3 billion in government $, our subsidiary in Kuwait did it!")

[garthgantu]

there is nothing wrong with being diligent with your purchases, that is why I disagree with the no return on CGC policy that most dealers have. Scans do not tell the whole truth. I am not being cavalier in my attitude, just being realistic that it is more important for you the consumer to be mindful of what you buy than have the CGC become the "police of the comic world".

 

Bullet: This is a bit part of the problem - the perception that CGC is the "police of the comic world." Who set them up as such? THEY did. They layed down the law on comic book grades and restoration when they opened their doors - hell, that was really their whole selling point! Do you think slabbed books would command 10x, 20x, 50x guide if CGC wasn't perceived as the arbiter of comic grading and restoration?

 

Just a question on that particular book, what is it that bugs you so much? the fact that someone bought a 7.0 and got a 9.2 upon resub or that the before and after grades are so far apart. too strict on the first and too lenient on the second submission or that CGC should have penalized the second submission because they did the first and could inconclusively have known that this was the other submission.

 

Are you purposely practicing obfuscation here or just that dense? We have nothing against that book in particular, it just happens to be the shining example of the day (tune in tomorrow for a new example, no doubt). What the book illustrates is the ease with which CGC's current system can be manipulated in ways that CGC has in various and tacit ways indicated it could not. I don't believe it is any sort of testament to CGC 'turning a blind eye' to pressing - you can't turn a blind eye to something you don't look for and don't consider restoration in the first place.

 

But now they're talking about taking this to the next level - "institutionalizing" pressing. In the past, at least CGC implied that "known, detectable pressing" would get a PLOD... Now, CGC is saying "we embrace pressing as an acceptable way of enhancing the appearance of a book" ('cause it sure ain't about preservation/conservation, it's all aesthetics)...and worse yet, those of us who don't approve of pressing - never mind whether we're a tiny minority or a soft-spoken majority - will have no way of knowing if a book we're buying has been pressed, because it won't be noted in any way/shape/form.

[Red Hook]

 

Just a question on that particular book, what is it that bugs you so much? the fact that someone bought a 7.0 and got a 9.2 upon resub or that the before and after grades are so far apart. too strict on the first and too lenient on the second submission or that CGC should have penalized the second submission because they did the first and could inconclusively have known that this was the other submission.

 

Neither. I think what bothers me is that I would prefer CGC to be only 85% accurate on the actual grading, and as close to 100% as they can be on restoration detection, and that would include, pressing. (I know, I know). The huge jump in the grade is pretty astounding, but it doesn't bother me that much.

 

Red

[Bullet123]

there is nothing wrong with being diligent with your purchases, that is why I disagree with the no return on CGC policy that most dealers have. Scans do not tell the whole truth. I am not being cavalier in my attitude, just being realistic that it is more important for you the consumer to be mindful of what you buy than have the CGC become the "police of the comic world".

 

Bullet: This is a bit part of the problem - the perception that CGC is the "police of the comic world." Who set them up as such? THEY did. They layed down the law on comic book grades and restoration when they opened their doors - hell, that was really their whole selling point! Do you think slabbed books would command 10x, 20x, 50x guide if CGC wasn't perceived as the arbiter of comic grading and restoration?

 

All they are IMHO is an impartial, independent third party grading company that this hobby sorely needed and because of the trust in them that the hobby has shown, that is the reason that books command the multiples that they now do because people feel comfortable that they are getting what they paid for.

 

Just a question on that particular book, what is it that bugs you so much? the fact that someone bought a 7.0 and got a 9.2 upon resub or that the before and after grades are so far apart. too strict on the first and too lenient on the second submission or that CGC should have penalized the second submission because they did the first and could inconclusively have known that this was the other submission.

 

Are you purposely practicing obfuscation here or just that dense? We have nothing against that book in particular, it just happens to be the shining example of the day (tune in tomorrow for a new example, no doubt). What the book illustrates is the ease with which CGC's current system can be manipulated in ways that CGC has in various and tacit ways indicated it could not. I don't believe it is any sort of testament to CGC 'turning a blind eye' to pressing - you can't turn a blind eye to something you don't look for and don't consider restoration in the first place.

 

But now they're talking about taking this to the next level - "institutionalizing" pressing. In the past, at least CGC implied that "known, detectable pressing" would get a PLOD... Now, CGC is saying "we embrace pressing as an acceptable way of enhancing the appearance of a book" ('cause it sure ain't about preservation/conservation, it's all aesthetics)...and worse yet, those of us who don't approve of pressing - never mind whether we're a tiny minority or a soft-spoken majority - will have no way of knowing if a book we're buying has been pressed, because it won't be noted in any way/shape/form.

 

On the first point, there will always be people that will try to circumvent or beat the system. On the second point, as I stated in my first post do you really think that you have not purchased a book that has had pressing done to it? Whether it is institutionalized or continues to proliferate in the dark, I am always of the opinion better the devil you know than the devil you don't

[FFB]

On the second point, as I stated in my first post do you really think that you have not purchased a book that has had pressing done to it? Whether it is institutionalized or continues to proliferate in the dark, I am always of the opinion better the devil you know than the devil you don't

 

So, just because we may have unwittingly purchased pressed books in the past, that makes it ok for CGC to go into the undisclosed pressing business in the future?

[blowout]

Again just for those that may have missed it...Whether or not pressing is restoration IS NOT THE ISSUE. The reason people are getting upset is that CGC are proposing not only to condone, but to actually SUPPORT a practice that is used to artificially inflate the grade (thus price) of a comic book.

 

HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THIS IS OK?

[Bullet123]

Again just for those that may have missed it...Whether or not pressing is restoration IS NOT THE ISSUE. The reason people are getting upset is that CGC are proposing not only to condone, but to actually SUPPORT a practice that is used to artificially inflate the grade (thus price) of a comic book.

 

HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THIS IS OK?

 

It is going to continue with or without CGC's blessing. Better the issue is out on the table NO?

[blowout]

Again just for those that may have missed it...Whether or not pressing is restoration IS NOT THE ISSUE. The reason people are getting upset is that CGC are proposing not only to condone, but to actually SUPPORT a practice that is used to artificially inflate the grade (thus price) of a comic book.

 

HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THIS IS OK?

 

It is going to continue with or without CGC's blessing. Better the issue is out on the table NO?

 

So you don't think that there will be a conflict of interest on CGC's part?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Again just for those that may have missed it...Whether or not pressing is restoration IS NOT THE ISSUE. The reason people are getting upset is that CGC are proposing not only to condone, but to actually SUPPORT a practice that is used to artificially inflate the grade (thus price) of a comic book.

 

HOW CAN ANYONE THINK THIS IS OK?

 

It is going to continue with or without CGC's blessing. Better the issue is out on the table NO?

 

My next question is this:

 

WHY NOW?

 

Here's a statement about pressing from Borock:

 

Have you ever thought that many dealer's and collector's that press books don't want it to become public knowledge because if everyone was doing it, it might just level the playing field and take profit out of their pockets? I know a few very big players that feel this way and would like me to keep my mouth shut about the pressing of comics even though it has been done by many major players for thirty years. These people are not hypocrites, they are hobbyists and business people.

 

What is that that made CGC decide to go against the wishes of the BSDs, and go public?

[mrwoogieman]

The large image is of the 7.0....the image in the inset box is the 9.2...with the contrast and brightness adjusted to make the crease more visible.

 

 

 

This one example means that I will NEVER buy a CGC book sight unseen where the seller has a no returns policy in place. I wouldn't buy that '9.2', I don't think it is a '9.2' in any event, and even if I did agree with the grade I think it should be in a purple label slab.

 

And all this time I thought CGC was content to broaden its market just by pushing the ultra-high grade moderns and expanding to magazines and some trades. Who knew they could also expand the available high grade back issue market too? I'm impressed with their ingenuity, but also sickened a bit too.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I've pulled my 1st pressing submission....

 

 

[Norrin_Radd]

I still have that Lego set.

[tth2]

I am not saying CGC should guess about whether a book is pressed. But I am saying:

 

1) When they KNOW the book has been pressed, call a spade and spade and note the restoration.

 

[tth2]

The huge jump in the grade is pretty astounding, but it doesn't bother me that much.

 

It bothers the hell out of me. Clearly the book got a 7.0 initially because of the big crease, even if non-color breaking, because the rest of the book is pretty nice, but that crease is huge. The virtual disappearance of the crease contributed to a big jump in grade, so it shows that there ARE some cases where pressing can lead to a big jump in grade.

 

My guess is the best candidates for pressing will be books with creases on the back cover, which are usually white and thus the color breaking vs. non-color breaking distinction will not be as important. I guess books with white front covers would make good candidates too.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if CGC KNOW a book has been pressed because they've seen the book previously in an unpressed state, then de facto the book has been pressed with intent to restore and therefore should get a PLOD. CGC should at a minimum set up procedures to catch the easy cases, meaning books with distinctive markings that they can easily identify as a previously submitted book. The list that Arty put up of Church books is really really shocking and quite frankly just negligent on the part of CGC.

[chrisco37]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if CGC KNOW a book has been pressed because they've seen the book previously in an unpressed state, then de facto the book has been pressed with intent to restore and therefore should get a PLOD. CGC should at a minimum set up procedures to catch the easy cases, meaning books with distinctive markings that they can easily identify as a previously submitted book. The list that Arty put up of Church books is really really shocking and quite frankly just negligent on the part of CGC.

 

Absolutely! It won't stop all the 'press & resub' books, and maybe it's not "fair" to allow some thru and others to pass, but that's not the point. If they can do anything to curtail this practice, it can only be good for the hobby.

 

Some of the great books in the hobby (Church/Larsen/etc...) have already been tampered with when there is no reason at all for it. If they can help it, CGC should not let other books from these historic collections to be ruined.

[skybolt]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if CGC KNOW a book has been pressed because they've seen the book previously in an unpressed state, then de facto the book has been pressed with intent to restore and therefore should get a PLOD. CGC should at a minimum set up procedures to catch the easy cases, meaning books with distinctive markings that they can easily identify as a previously submitted book. The list that Arty put up of Church books is really really shocking and quite frankly just negligent on the part of CGC.

 

Absolutely! It won't stop all the 'press & resub' books, and maybe it's not "fair" to allow some thru and others to pass, but that's not the point. If they can do anything to curtail this practice, it can only be good for the hobby.

 

Some of the great books in the hobby (Church/Larsen/etc...) have already been tampered with when there is no reason at all for it. If they can help it, CGC should not let other books from these historic collections to be ruined.

 

What's next, an evaporation process that removes any hint of existing water stains on the back cover?

 

Pretty soon 9.0 and above GA PLOD books will start going up in value, since their owners will advertise their books as such: "Folks, which would you rather own, a clean restored 9.0 version of ASM#1, or an 8.0 version that might have been pressed by a CGC affiliate and upgraded from a 6.0, but not noted." And you know what, they'd have a point. For my taste, large creases look just as bad as tears. If we accept multiple creases and wrinkes being taken out by pressing, how long before we start accepting tear seals and spine reinforcement as ordinary preservation processes.

[skybolt]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if CGC KNOW a book has been pressed because they've seen the book previously in an unpressed state, then de facto the book has been pressed with intent to restore and therefore should get a PLOD. CGC should at a minimum set up procedures to catch the easy cases, meaning books with distinctive markings that they can easily identify as a previously submitted book. The list that Arty put up of Church books is really really shocking and quite frankly just negligent on the part of CGC.

 

Absolutely! It won't stop all the 'press & resub' books, and maybe it's not "fair" to allow some thru and others to pass, but that's not the point. If they can do anything to curtail this practice, it can only be good for the hobby.

 

Some of the great books in the hobby (Church/Larsen/etc...) have already been tampered with when there is no reason at all for it. If they can help it, CGC should not let other books from these historic collections to be ruined.

 

What's next, an evaporation process that removes any hint of existing water stains on the back cover?

 

Pretty soon 9.0 and above GA PLOD books will start going up in value, since their owners will advertise their books as such: "Folks, which would you rather own, a clean restored 9.0 version of ASM#1, or an 8.0 version that might have been pressed by a CGC affiliate and upgraded from a 6.0, but not noted." And you know what, they'd have a point. For my taste, large creases look just as bad as tears. If we accept multiple creases and wrinkes being taken out by pressing, how long before we start accepting tear seals and spine reinforcement as ordinary preservation processes.

 

Here's what I think will happen if pressing books continues and vintage 7.0's turn into 9.2's. Some comic dealers will make out like bandits by pressing their entire collections and selling them at premiums to ordinary unknowing collectors. In 5 years time, people would have had enough and begin thinking of pressing as a form of restoration. Then, another grading company (with high level detection equipment) comes along and agrees with the general public, and starts listing pressing as restoration. Now we have 2 problems. The first and obvious problem is that many collectors, who bought these CGC graded pressed books for premium prices, are now going to wind up with a collection worth 1/4 of what they paid for it. Secondly, another 20 to 30% of vintage, rare GA books would be considered as restored. If that happens, then we'll be left with a small amount of books from the golden age era that are still completely pure.

 

If you're a long term collector, and want to keep your collection for another 20 years, I would not recommend pressing at this time. Trust me, in 5-10 years from now, scanning equipment will not only be able to detect pressing, but would tell you how many times you sneezed near your book or took it to the bathroom with you.

[reddog4063]

I think what needs to be done is collectors have to really loosen up their grading standards. I remember when I was younger and at the comic shop all they would do is eyeball a comic for 5 seconds and come up with a rough estimate and that was totally fine. In my opinion, collectors are way too tough on these poor pieces of pulp....I have seen one copy of a comic sell for thousands and thousands of dollars more than a similiar copy b/c of a single nearly microscopic bend. Well the word is out now folks, they now know "if i can just get this little flake of paper to look flat i can make double my money". Its really ridiculous....

[burntboy]

 

 

Here's what I think will happen if pressing books continues and vintage 7.0's turn into 9.2's. Some comic dealers will make out like bandits by pressing their entire collections and selling them at premiums to ordinary unknowing collectors.

 

please, let's not exaggerate the issue (it's already serious enough).

 

pressing ain't gonna turn a whole collection of books from 7.0's to 9.2's. it;s possible that SOME books in the collection could benefit from pressing but certainly NOT the majority, let alone ALL the books.

 

pressing can't remove color-breaking spine stresses.

 

pressing won't repair tears.

 

pressing won't replace missing pieces.

 

pressing can't remove dirt.

 

pressing doesn't remove water stains.

 

pressing won't replace lost gloss.

 

pressing won't replace loss of color.

 

ETC.

 

 

it lessens the appearance of creases, wrinkles, indentations and waviness.

 

so only a small percentage of books are probably improvable through just pressing. and then, the improvement may be minor.

 

i have to admit that the Church books (while the list of improved books appears huge - there were afterall 20,000 books in the collection) got some pretty big jumps in grade and it makes one wonder if pressing was the only form of resto that wasn't detected.....