"Age"? What's that?

[Kevin Boyd]

I think that during the 1980's the hive mind of comic book fans across the world sat around saying "we have a golden age and a silver age, perhaps - just like the Olympics, we should call the next great age the Bronze Age".

 

And lo... the heavens parted and people started saying that books published in the 1970's must be part of the Bronze Age.

 

Except no one could actually decide when it actually started and when it actually ended. Heck, we still can't decide, a decade or so after the term became a commonly accepted one for '70's books, what book was the first Bronze Age title.

 

And since the Olympics doesn't have another metal/medal for the fourth place winner no one has been able to coin a legitimate term for '80's comics other than modern which lumps in everything published since the undecided end of the Bronze age to last Wednesday's comics.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

Why would you think that the SA would have been delayed because of the Comics Code?

 

The DC superhero revival was something that evolved naturally from DC's successful science fiction titles and the fact that most of the staff (a) had worked on the original superhero line in the forties and were now in a position to revive the heroes and (b) a vocal group of kids/fans had rediscovered superheroes in used books stores and were barraging the DC offices with letters and ideas on how to bring their beloved JSA back.

 

Did the comic book buying audience suddenly say - "well, since I can't buy any more EC horror comics because they have been gutted by the comics code I might as well pick up this here DC Showcase comic book with the guy in the red pajamas".

 

No. The book would have been published irregardless and it hit two veins of fandom - one that had been dormant since the late '40's and a new one that had discovered the books of the '40's and were eager for superheroes (other than Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman/Aquaman/Green Arrow). EC's success or failure, and the comic code were not really a factor in the DC revival of superheroes and the arrival of the silver age of comics.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

That was a great rehash of comic book history. Copy that and give it to your non-comics-buying friends.

 

There is a comprehensive history of the comic book industry that is published in the Overstreet that has a more detailed year-by-year account.

 

However, this industry is fond of giving certain eras "ages" and I don't think it's detrimental to the hobby. A newcomer might be intrigued by what's a silver age book? What's a golden age book? and start researching the titles that fall into those categories. It also allows collectors to specialize on tirles published within certain eras because cost and availablilty limits most collectors from seeking out titles that run the gamut of all eras...

 

Plus, it's always been a fun aspect of the hobby for fans to debate when the next age of comics begins and ends.

 

Kev

 

[PovertyRow]

Why would you think that the SA would have been delayed because of the Comics Code?

 

Primarily because as soon as the code hit the market changed radically. We went from hardcore horror/crime to very weak fantasy books. The major titles and many of the publishers (and EC was only a part of it) disappeared. Showcase 4 came out at the ideal time - about a year after the code finished off the "Atom Age" and the selection of books was diminished and the content of those remaining diminished even more. The company that really thrived was Marvel/Atlas. They continued with a great line of sci-fi/horror/fantasy that met the code, and kept at it until 1961. The success of Atlas during this time is, to me, a key indicator that had the code not been enforced, the "Atom Age" would have continued a heck of a lot longer than it did.

[Kevin Boyd]

Nevertheless, DC/National was still one of the market leaders with their science fiction line of comics (as well as Superman/Batman). Since they never really ventured into Horror/Crime comics they were probably the company least affected by the code.

 

While some of the other companies did discontinue their riskier titles, EC was really the one that was hit the hardest. EC crime and horror titles were strong sellers, but so were the Dell Giants, Four Colors, western comics and funny animal books that were unaffected by the arrival of the code. Dell didn't ever subscribe to the code.

 

EC tried to continue with magazine size (with the picto-fiction mags - I have some up on e-bay right now) but those magazines did not succeed because they were virtually undistributable - no magazine seller in his right mind would touch EC crime or horror after the senate hearings debacle. MAD was different enough to escape unscathed (but as a mag).

 

I do agree that those who were buying crime and horror might have turned to the Atlas titles (TOS, TTA, ST, JIM, AAF) as a last resort (for a few years at least). But the ATLAS monster line evolved into the superhero line when Stan and Martin saw just how successful the DC heroes were.

 

Did superheroes fill a void left by horror? I don't think so. Did monster comics fill a void left by horror? Perhaps for a couple of years, but those books were gone by 1964... it wasn't until the Warren group bypassed the code entirely by going with magazine distribution that horror comics became a successful venture.

 

Now if we were to suppose that there were no senate hearings, no comics code, would DC have still introduced the Flash in 1956? Yes, I believe they would have. DC didn't publish horror books and the prime movers behind the revival did so because they wanted to revive the Flash, Green Lantern and others. The sci-fi bent they added to the characters came out of the successful books they did have - like Mystery in Space, Tales of the Unexpected, etc. DC was still mainly a superhero company so it made some sense to marry the sensibility of superheroes with the smartness of science fiction (besides Superman and Batman were very sci-fi oriented at the time).

 

(Marvel had tried it a supehero revival a few years before DC but with disastrous results. Did those books fail because people preferred crime and horror? Perhaps, more likely it was because they were AWFUL (with the exception of Everett's Sub-Mariner, which outlasted the others).

 

Kev

 

[PovertyRow]

I do agree that those who were buying crime and horror might have turned to the Atlas titles (TOS, TTA, ST, JIM, AAF) as a last resort (for a few years at least). But the ATLAS monster line evolved into the superhero line when Stan and Martin saw just how successful the DC heroes were.

 

Don't sell Atlas short. Atlas continued the following from the pre-code into the post-code: Astonishing (38-63), Journey Into Unknown Worlds (34-59), Marvel Tales (132-159), Mystery Tales (27-54), Mystic (37-61), Spellbound (24-34) and Uncanny Tales (29-56). But beyond that, they began several new fantasy titles during the post-code such as Adventure Into Mystery, Mystical Tales, Strange Tales Of the Unusual, World Of Fantasy, World Of Mystery and World Of Suspense. So obvisouly the interest was there.

 

EC wasn't as hard hit, due to the success of Mad, than such companies as Ace, Avon, Lev Gleason, Premier, Quality and Superior, all of whom were out of business a year after the code, but had been doing well before the code. (This brings up a topic of some interest to me - exactly when did the pre-code horror publishers fail? Companies like St John, Gillmor, Ajax-Farrell etc. It should be an interesting investigation and I am going to begin researching it - but with my luck someone already has a book out on it!)

 

I don't think we will ever really know what the comic book world would have been like had the code not come into being. But I honestly cannot believe the timelime would be essentially the same.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

You are correct, I was not counting the various publishers that went by the wayside around the time of the code.

 

Was St. John, one of the publishers you mentioned really driven under by the code or were there other factors involved? I have a couple of St. John books but I don't see how any of those books would have been objectionable.

 

It became abundantly clear that EC WAS the target for the code-founding publishers as the code was worded in such a way that nearly every major EC title would be found objectionable. William Gaines was the SCAPEGOAT for the industry - he had made such a miserable fool of himself on the televised senate hearings into comics that he had become an embarassment to the industry (defending severed head covers as tasteful!) and the other publishers moved quickly to ostracize him and his company. VERY quickly.

 

Yes, Marvel had pre-code horror/monster comics, but being one of the main publshers still active in those genres after the code was created they certainly benefitted. Then again, Martin Goodman and his nephew always managed to deliver what the audience wanted and sidestep potential problems.

 

I still think that DC would have proceeded with the Flash experiment in Showcase irregardless of the code. Nothing in the memoirs of those involved indicates that they were scrambling for ideas because of the code. And I still think that there was an audience of kids that were eager for that type of book.

 

But you are correct, we can't know what would have happened if events unfolded in a different manner. I can only go by what did happen.

 

Kev

[PovertyRow]

I still think that DC would have proceeded with the Flash experiment in Showcase irregardless of the code. Nothing in the memoirs of those involved indicates that they were scrambling for ideas because of the code. And I still think that there was an audience of kids that were eager for that type of book.

 

On these points I do agree. DC was certainly marching to their own drummer, and pretty successfully. They were the only major publisher who could have their superheres survive through the pre-code horror years, so that alone is indicative that a superhero market was still there. In fact, they had a total of 45 pre-code horrors amoung House Of Mystery, Sensation and Sensation Mystery (the last thrid a continuation of the 2nd). Compared to their other output during the Atom Age, this was a drop in the inkwell.

 

My main contention is that, without the code coming into effect, the comic market would have looked considerably different in 1956 as far as what companies were publishing and what titles were available.

 

Was St. John, one of the publishers you mentioned really driven under by the code or were there other factors involved?

 

Which books do you have? St John is one iof the ones I mentioned under speculation...and I really do intend to find out what happened to every pre-code publisher. I fear it will be a large undertaking, but it will be a lot of fun!

[Kevin Boyd]

The St. John books I have are the run of Tor (by Kubert), including One Million Years Ago (Tor #1). I think I may have some St. John 3-D books as well.

 

Here's Joe Kubert's recollection of his time with the company until it folded (from the Tor Archives vol. 1):

 

"before being drafted I was producing comic books for Archer St. John, who was the owner of the St. John Publishing company. St. John's roster included a number of detective magazines and comic books, Mickey Spillane, author of the "Mike Hammer" series, was one of his writers. As a civillian in 1952, I renewed my realationship with Mr. St. John, who was pleased to accept me, my work and my ideas once again."

 

St. John publishing was the home of the first 3-D books, originated by Kubert, Norm Maurer, Leonard Maurer. Starting with 3-D Mighty Mouse, Tor and the Three Stooges. St. John rode the wave of success as the market was flooded with 3-D books.

 

As Kubert recalls:

 

"The result was inevitable; suddenly the 'gimmick' of 3-D stopped selling. Greed and shortsightedness is the formula for disaster. Many publishers overestimated the comic-book public's appetite for novelty, as did we (at St. John). St. John Publishing Company, along with a number of others, fell by the wayside, a result of too many books and too few sales."

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Fascinating. St. John contributed one 3-D horror with House Of Terror 3-D #1. In the horror line they also had Strange Terrors, Weird Horrors, Nightmare, Amazing Ghost Stories. They also published Ziff-Davis' last isue of the Z-D Nightmare (#3).

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

In the next Price Guide, there will be a brief feature in which we put forward our suggestions for new Age designations to carry us through the end of the 1990s. But rather than dictate such things utterly, the purpose of the piece will be to throw open the debate and allow anyone to respond to us directly with a "yea," "nay," or a suggestion of their own. Hopefully we will then follow that up in the *next* edition with the results.

 

Arnold

[Mister_Comics]

Sounds like we need a TIMELINE.

 

They have something like that on Encarta. It tells all the events throught history.

 

A comic book timeline could show important events, major issues, and introductions of characters and people involved with comics. This way we may see just where all the different ages come in and go out.

 

BTW; I feel we are already entering a new age of comics. The ULTIMATE age.

[Zonker]

BUMP!

[Mister_Comics]

The 60's should be renamed THE STONED AGE.

 

But seriously; I think we shoould stop with the "ages" thing. Just go with the decades. Or! How bout this, do like STAN LEE would do in the comics. Call um the FAB 50's, the SWINGING 60's, DISCO 70's an so on. But change um to something related to comics or the comic characters. Like Super 40's or the Marvelous 60's, the Ultimate 2000's. Something like that.