Avengers 118 cover in Heritage….

[stinkininkin]

Oh my God, they erased it!

 

Ok, full disclosure: I saw this piece a couple of months ago, before they cleaned the velum. Right below Dormammu's right foot there were the names "Wilson + Romita" written in JR's handwriting. It looks like it was removed! I'll have to post that old pic. Someone at Heritage is being a naughty boy.

 

After your description, I looked at the large Heritage scan and sure enough, you can very faintly make out the Wilson and Romita signatures. That's very interesting, and very significant! Or is it? It's been suggested to me that image and characters might begin to trump artist and size (standard versus twice up) as the metrics about what is considered most prized by newer collectors is shifting. So does a Wilson/Romita cover change anything versus a straight Romita cover in this case, vellum aside? Thoughts?

 

Scott

[Nexus]

Oh my God, they erased it!

 

Ok, full disclosure: I saw this piece a couple of months ago, before they cleaned the velum. Right below Dormammu's right foot there were the names "Wilson + Romita" written in JR's handwriting. It looks like it was removed! I'll have to post that old pic. Someone at Heritage is being a naughty boy.

 

After your description, I looked at the large Heritage scan and sure enough, you can very faintly make out the Wilson and Romita signatures. That's very interesting, and very significant! Or is it? It's been suggested to me that image and characters might begin to trump artist and size (standard versus twice up) as the metrics about what is considered most prized by newer collectors is shifting. So does a Wilson/Romita cover change anything versus a straight Romita cover in this case, vellum aside? Thoughts?

 

Scott

 

It was erased for a reason, wasn't it?

 

Kudos to DJRome and ironmandrd for bringing something substantial to this discussion. Real information like this is what benefits the hobby. Thank you!

[glenbru]

Oh my God, they erased it!

 

Ok, full disclosure: I saw this piece a couple of months ago, before they cleaned the velum. Right below Dormammu's right foot there were the names "Wilson + Romita" written in JR's handwriting. It looks like it was removed! I'll have to post that old pic. Someone at Heritage is being a naughty boy.

 

After your description, I looked at the large Heritage scan and sure enough, you can very faintly make out the Wilson and Romita signatures. That's very interesting, and very significant! Or is it? It's been suggested to me that image and characters might begin to trump artist and size (standard versus twice up) as the metrics about what is considered most prized by newer collectors is shifting. So does a Wilson/Romita cover change anything versus a straight Romita cover in this case, vellum aside? Thoughts?

 

Scott

 

That's interesting. I looked at it too and it does seem like Wilson and Romita's name were there in pencil. I'll bet one of the previous owners went up to JR to have the piece signed and John remembered it as a Wilson/Romita cover and signed it that way. I've seen Romita credit other artists while signing.

 

I do think the ultimate buyer is getting this piece for the published inks, but the Wilson equation will, I imagine, cause other buyers to drop out. This is not a piece that I covet, but if I were an interested buyer I'd be less inclined to spend to the max on this piece.

[Ironmandrd]

It does look like the same handwriting (Romita's) wrote both names.

[stinkininkin]

Oh my God, they erased it!

 

Ok, full disclosure: I saw this piece a couple of months ago, before they cleaned the velum. Right below Dormammu's right foot there were the names "Wilson + Romita" written in JR's handwriting. It looks like it was removed! I'll have to post that old pic. Someone at Heritage is being a naughty boy.

 

After your description, I looked at the large Heritage scan and sure enough, you can very faintly make out the Wilson and Romita signatures. That's very interesting, and very significant! Or is it? It's been suggested to me that image and characters might begin to trump artist and size (standard versus twice up) as the metrics about what is considered most prized by newer collectors is shifting. So does a Wilson/Romita cover change anything versus a straight Romita cover in this case, vellum aside? Thoughts?

 

Scott

 

It was erased for a reason, wasn't it?

 

Kudos to DJRome and ironmandrd for bringing something substantial to this discussion. Real information like this is what benefits the hobby. Thank you!

 

That's the way I read it as well.

 

And not that anyone should care, but my general order of preference when considering which art to buy starts with artist, then nostalgia/story content, then character and image, although those last two can flip flop. Historical significance continues to bring up the rear for me, but I acknowledge I'm probably in the minority on that. Size does matter to me as well, but it generally only comes into play if something is really small, which would of course be a negative. Stating the obvious, but I won't buy something just because it's big either.

 

Scott

[glenbru]

The thing that strikes me about the cover, is that the layout is strong as well as the rendering. If we assume this is a Wilson layout or pencil, I doubt that an all Romita drawing would look any better than this. But I've come to realize, as a collector, that accreditation trumps image every time.

[glenbru]

Or at least most of the time. I do wonder if that will change.

[Ironmandrd]

One question is did HA have the vellum before it was cleaned (and then arranged with the consignor to have it cleaned) or did the consignor have it cleaned and then sent it to HA and then don't know about the signature (and didn't notice it).

[Terry Doyle]

Over time, when there is less material out there, and beggers can't be choosers, these differences may make less impact, but for now vellum still gets a diss. I do think some of the hangups we have in this hobby are going to disappear over time - vellum may not be such a problem, art cut to the image will be tolerated, large art will not have a premium over small art, etc. etc. As the hobby expands beyond the fanboy circle, some of these things may disappear, and probably rightly so as much of it is artificial things we nit pick on.

 

I think this makes a lot of sense, Hari. We've already seen less of a division on the small vs large debate where image wins out. If we look at the Avengers 72 result and compare it to the Avengers 42 cover result a few Heritage auctions back through old school eyes this is a perfect example of Image trumping size where the reverse would have been expected in the past.

 

For me, quality of illustration is my first and foremost consideration. Size of artwork is mostly irrelevant and only comes into play when two similarly (aesthetically) pleasing pieces are on offer.

 

For example, a twice-up cover vs. standard size cover. If both are of comparable quality, the impressive and striking size of the larger art sways it for me. If the other way round, I'd go for the smaller cover.

 

Some of my most cherished artworks (late 1950s Dan Dare artwork by Frank Hampson, a UK great), were illustrated at a small scale (same size as the printed page), but the attention to detail is stunning and far more polished than the earlier stuff (which was illustrated twice-up).

 

Anyway, it's good that collectors appear to be coming round to the fact that big ain't necessarily beautiful . . .

[Nexus]

One question is did HA have the vellum before it was cleaned (and then arranged with the consignor to have it cleaned) or did the consignor have it cleaned and then sent it to HA and then don't know about the signature (and didn't notice it).

 

Good question. My guess is that HA didn't erase the signature, though. At least from my experience, they've been pretty upfront about any condition issues. The blowback on something like this just wouldn't be worth it.

 

On the other hand, we have seen this sort of thing from dealers many times. And "dealers" these days can mean pretty much anyone in the hobby, not just those who hang a shingle.

 

But...good question. Does anyone know the answer?

 

Someone sent me this pic, for what it's worth:

 

 

Assuming it's legit, "Wilson + Romita" is clearly visible, as well as the condition of the vellum before it was presumably restored.

[delekkerste]

After your description, I looked at the large Heritage scan and sure enough, you can very faintly make out the Wilson and Romita signatures. That's very interesting, and very significant! Or is it? It's been suggested to me that image and characters might begin to trump artist and size (standard versus twice up) as the metrics about what is considered most prized by newer collectors is shifting. So does a Wilson/Romita cover change anything versus a straight Romita cover in this case, vellum aside? Thoughts?

 

I think the vellum may potentially hurt this cover more than any Ron Wilson partial attribution would. No doubt that what is considered most prized by newer collectors vs. old hands is shifting - as Glen pointed out, most old-timers would have guessed that the John B. twice-up Avengers cover at HA earlier this year would have done better than this Sal B. cover. Instead, it sold for only half as much! Newer collectors generally care more about their own nostalgia (increasingly getting away from the early Silver Age) and don't put as much emphasis on size, artist, etc. distinctions. Not that these factors don't still matter a great deal, it's just that these factors may only account for 50-60% of the decision-making process in a newer collector vs. 80-90% to an old-hand.

[Ironmandrd]

After your description, I looked at the large Heritage scan and sure enough, you can very faintly make out the Wilson and Romita signatures. That's very interesting, and very significant! Or is it? It's been suggested to me that image and characters might begin to trump artist and size (standard versus twice up) as the metrics about what is considered most prized by newer collectors is shifting. So does a Wilson/Romita cover change anything versus a straight Romita cover in this case, vellum aside? Thoughts?

 

I think the vellum may potentially hurt this cover more than any Ron Wilson partial attribution would. No doubt that what is considered most prized by newer collectors vs. old hands is shifting - as Glen pointed out, most old-timers would have guessed that the John B. twice-up Avengers cover at HA earlier this year would have done better than this Sal B. cover. Instead, it sold for half as much! Newer collectors generally care more about their own nostalgia (increasingly getting away from the early Silver Age) and don't put as much emphasis on size, artist, etc. distinctions. Not that these factors don't still matter a great deal, it's just that these factors may only account for 50-60% of the decision-making process in a newer collector vs. 80-90% to an old-hand.

 

+1

[Nexus]

FYI, Heritage has amended the description to include Ron Wilson.

[Ironmandrd]

Presumably someone contacted them. I was holding off calling HA until Ron Wilson weighed in on his level of involvement on the cover.

[Nexus]

Could be, but they also monitor the boards.

 

[Filter81]

 

But...good question. Does anyone know the answer?

 

 

Just to clear up any confusion (and so people can know what they are bidding on) I'm the consignor of this cover. I picked up approximately 1000 pieces of OA this spring and have been starting to consign them.

 

Please no requests for a list. If there's one thing I've learned about OA it's that as an uninformed seller it is not in my best interest to share any information with anyone.

 

I do however, want to make sure that whoever decides to bid on this cover knows exactly what they are getting.

 

As far as the timeline goes, when I gave this piece to HA they recommended having it restored because part of it had a brown look to it. (Nowhere near as bad as it looks in that picture which was taken with a cheap cell phone camera in poor lighting in a hotel room the night I purchased the collection, but still brown.) Both people who saw it in person prior to being whitened, were surprised how much better it looked in person than it did in that photo.

 

The finished product (which I found out about by reading this thread) is what you see. Based on all the years I've done business with Heritage I would find it very hard to believe that anything not accepted in the OA hobby would have been done on their end.

 

I can tell you three things about the piece.

 

1) Now that it's been fixed up it looks amazing. (If I'd known it would look like this I wouldn't have consigned it, I would have kept it)

2) Only two people have seen it in person since I bought it. One told me it looked to him like the work was done by Romita (who he said often worked on Velum) Personally I can barely tell Romita from McFarlane. As far as what (if any) role Wilson played on this cover, I have no idea.

3) Despite the materials used, the cover feels as sturdy (to me) as any of the other covers I picked up in the collection. And that was before having any work done. I haven't seen it in person after.

 

I guess I'll have a talk with Heritage at some point if this piece is still worth consigning or not. But assuming everything stays as-is, I hope this clears things up enough so that anyone interested in bidding knows what they are bidding on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lb jefferies]

I picked up approximately 1000 pieces of OA this spring and have been slowly starting to consign them.

 

Please no requests for a list. If there's one thing I've learned about OA it's that as an uninformed seller it is not in my best interest to share any information with anyone.

 

Even so, get ready for your inbox to explode.

[GreatEscape]

I picked up approximately 1000 pieces of OA this spring and have been slowly starting to consign them.

 

Hi Adam Impressive haul and Avengers cover!

 

Actually, I'm not surprised to see you become a "New Force" in OA after dealing with you (and Rick) all those years in GA land. Welcome to the jungle…and good luck!

 

Dino

[Filter81]

I picked up approximately 1000 pieces of OA this spring and have been slowly starting to consign them.

 

Hi Adam Impressive haul and Avengers cover!

 

Actually, I'm not surprised to see you become a "New Force" in OA after dealing with you (and Rick) all those years in GA land. Welcome to the jungle…and good luck!

 

Dino

 

Hey Dino Nice to see a friendly "face". The idea is (was?) for me to be a quiet observer until I learned a little more about the OA section of the hobby before posting in this forum. I'm getting to see first hand exactly how cool certain pieces of OA can be. My first love is still GA books though

[GreatEscape]

Quiet or not, great pieces of art speak for themselves....and primo art like your Avengers cover can BANG like fireworks around here! It's gonna be a fun show to watch!