Term "Pre-Hero Marvel" First Used?

[PovertyRow]

In this thread http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=357182&Number=8089269#Post8089269 01TheDude posted the 1978 Robert Bell catalogue. On page nine there is a reference to "Pre-Hero Marvel" with a few JIM, ST and TOS issues.

 

 

1978 seems pretty early for a "pre-hero Marvel" reference. Anyone know when this term was first used or used earlier than 1978?

[AtlasFan]

Nice research. I would have bet that the term really didnt exist before the mid-80s. I bet it goes back ever further.

 

That could be verified in old fanzies and issues of CBG perhaps...

[sfcityduck]

What's a "pre-hero Marvel" and how does it differ from "Atlas era"?

 

As I understand it, although the term "Marvel Comics" appeared on some GA comics, the first modern usage was for JIM 69 (June 1961). That means that the universe of "pre-hero Marvel" JIM titles was only 14 issues. But even that may be overly generous, as FF1 (November 1961) would have come out at the same time as JIM 74, so then we'd be talking about a universe of only four "pre-hero Marvel" months.

 

Or is this some sort of SA collector usage which ignores Atlas, including the Atlas revival?

[rodan57]

I would say that pre-hero Marvel refers to the fantasy titles that Lee, Leiber, Kirby, Ditko, Heck and Ayers contributed to after the Atlas Implosion and Joe Maneely's death.

 

Regardless of cover dates, the first issues of Tales to Astonish, Tales of Suspense and Strange Worlds were released to the newsstand on September 2, 1958 -- as was World of Fantasy #15.

 

These issues along with the new style Journey into Mystery #50 and Strange Tales #67 (October 2, 1958 releases) illustrated a break with the earlier the Maneely house style.

 

After Maneely's accidental death on June 7, 1958, and the exhaustion of the inventory of his covers, one witnessed the odd covers by John Severin and Jack Davis. When Kirby returned full time to what most in the industry still called Timely, even in the late 1950s, his covers on virtually all the company's books made the new house style clearly evident.

 

Stories emphasized fantasy and monsters, perhaps heavily influenced by both new and old science fiction and horror movies.

 

Timely/Atlas/Marvel was a very small comic book company between September 1958 and May 1960 -- publishing only 8 books per month (16 bi-monthly titles) and still only 10 titles per month until May 1961. Lee's small group of artists created a very distinct flavour of comic book.

 

This is a rather simplified summary of a complex publishing period but I hope it provides a bit of an overview to a period of distinct if still evolutionary change.

[PovertyRow]

There are two definitions that are part of the same concept.

 

A pre-hero Marvel could refer to Tales Of Suspense, Journey Into Mystery, Tales To Astonish and Strange Tales before the heroes were introduced in these issues.

 

It could also refer to the shift in Atlas as Rodan57 says, to fantasy concepts with the Kirby, Ditko etc. covers/stories.

 

I tend to prefer the 2nd definition. I would consider titles that never generated a hero such as Worlds of Fantasy to be part of the Pre-Hero concept, as well as the post-code big four (JIM, TOS, ST and TTA).

 

I don't include the true pre-code horror Atlas books Pre-Hero. Not only do they their PCH appellation, but the code was a heavy influence on the shift from real horror to Fantasy. Without the code I have to wonder how much later, if at all, the new crop of Marvel SA heroes would have been created and what they would be like.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

Thanks!

[bc]

I would say that pre-hero Marvel refers to fantasy titles that Lee, Leiber, Kirby, Ditko, Heck and Ayers contributed to after the Atlas Implosion and Joe Maneely's death.

 

Regardless of cover dates, the first issues of Tales to Astonish, Tales of Suspense and Strange Worlds were released to the newsstand on September 2, 1958 -- as was Worlds of Fantasy #15.

 

These issues along with the new style Journey into Mystery #50 and Strange Tales #67 (October 2, 1958 releases) illustrated a break with the earlier the Maneely house style.

 

After Maneely's accidental death on June 7, 1958, and the exhaustion of the inventory of his covers, one witnessed the odd covers by John Severin and Jack Davis. When Kirby returned full time to what most in the industry still called Timely, even in the late 1950s, his covers on virtually all the company's books was the new house style.

 

This is a rather simplified summary of a complex publishing period but I think it does provide a bit of an overview to a period of distinct if still evolutionary change.

 

Excellent explanation! Pre-Hero Marvels (PHM) consist of these 164 issues:

 

Amazing Adventures 1-6

Amazing Adult Fantasy 7-14

Journey Into Mystery 50-82

Strange Tales 67-100 + Annual 1

Strange Worlds 1-5

Tales of Suspense 1-38

Tales To Astonish 1-34

World Of Fantasy 15-19

 

Back to the OPs question - was hoping someone would run with this since your reference is much earlier than the first one I can locate in the OSPG. That is Vol.22 (1992), page A100, in an article entitled "Journey into the Unknown World of Atlas Fantasy". This is the first OSPG which also identifies "prototype" issues in the PHM series.From that article:

 

"In the early 1980s, comic book fans laughed heartily at anyone caught reading one of these "pre-hero" Marvels."

 

That 1978 CBG reference is the one of the earliest to apply that label to these books that came out only 20 years beforehand.

-bc

[PovertyRow]

 

That 1978 CBG reference is the one of the earliest to apply that label to these books that came out only 20 years beforehand.

-bc

 

Just a minor correction but it wasn;t in CBG (the thread I ref'd started as a CBG #1 thread) but that pre-hero ref was from Robert Bell's catalogue that expired August 1978.

[sfcityduck]

A good question might be whether Bell was using the term (1) just as a bit of hype to try and link slow selling Atlas books to hotter selling "Marvels" or (2) whether he actually intended to use the term consistent with the Kirby/Ditko house style definition given above. My guess would be the former, because my memory is that Atlas books were not all that desirable back then. The way to tell would be to look at other catalogues from around that time period and see if he ever used the term again and whether he applied it to books you guys would not consider "pre-hero Marvels."

 

[bc]

A good question might be whether Bell was using the term (1) just as a bit of hype to try and link slow selling Atlas books to hotter selling "Marvels" or (2) whether he actually intended to use the term consistent with the Kirby/Ditko house style definition given above. My guess would be the former, because my memory is that Atlas books were not all that desirable back then. The way to tell would be to look at other catalogues from around that time period and see if he ever used the term again and whether he applied it to books you guys would not consider "pre-hero Marvels."

 

It was probably more of the former meant as a sales tactic, now that you mention the increased revenue potential. With Overstreet giving the PHM tag validity in '92 and then labelling specific prototype issues afterwards, it was easy and convenient for collectors (including myself) to adopt this as the name for a sub-category for the Atlas Horror to Marvel Superhero transition period.

-bc

[PovertyRow]

A good question might be whether Bell was using the term (1) just as a bit of hype to try and link slow selling Atlas books to hotter selling "Marvels" or (2) whether he actually intended to use the term consistent with the Kirby/Ditko house style definition given above. My guess would be the former, because my memory is that Atlas books were not all that desirable back then. The way to tell would be to look at other catalogues from around that time period and see if he ever used the term again and whether he applied it to books you guys would not consider "pre-hero Marvels."

 

My guess so far is he used the Big Four (SOS, JIM, TTA and ST) since only JIM, ST and TOS are listed under Pre-Hero.

 

OSPG (at least my latest from 2010), CCS (CGC parent company) and Heritage define it as Strange Tales 1-100 (pre-Human Torch), Journey Into Mystery #1-82 (pre-Thor), Tales To Astonish #1-34 (pre-Ant Man), and Tales Of Suspense #1-38 (pre-Iron Man).

 

I really do not like the inclusion of the pre-codes in this (ST and JIM).

 

I really do like the expanded definition that includes the other post-code fantasy titles.

 

 

[rodan57]

I agree with you.

 

This might be another case where it's important to buy the book and not the label.

[Mark 1]

Very cool topic!

[sfcityduck]

Calling Strange Tales 1, for example, "pre-hero Marvel" is really strange. As a 1951 Atlas comic it doesn't fit the Kirby/Ditko style criteria, is not a Marvel, and if it is "pre-hero," it is pre the Atlas revival of superheros that occurred a year or so later.

 

I really don't see the point of a "pre-hero Marvel" label, given the books in question were Atlas. But, if you're going to use it, it makes a lot more sense to use the label to describe the Kirby/Ditko monster books as those at least have some (arguable) relationship to the subsequent Marvel comics.

[PovertyRow]

A good question might be whether Bell was using the term (1) just as a bit of hype to try and link slow selling Atlas books to hotter selling "Marvels" or (2) whether he actually intended to use the term consistent with the Kirby/Ditko house style definition given above. My guess would be the former, because my memory is that Atlas books were not all that desirable back then. The way to tell would be to look at other catalogues from around that time period and see if he ever used the term again and whether he applied it to books you guys would not consider "pre-hero Marvels."

 

My guess so far is he used the Big Four (SOS, JIM, TTA and ST) since only JIM, ST and TOS are listed under Pre-Hero.

 

OSPG (at least my latest from 2010), CCS (CGC parent company) and Heritage define it as Strange Tales 1-100 (pre-Human Torch), Journey Into Mystery #1-82 (pre-Thor), Tales To Astonish #1-34 (pre-Ant Man), and Tales Of Suspense #1-38 (pre-Iron Man).

 

I really do not like the inclusion of the pre-codes in this (ST and JIM).

 

I really do like the expanded definition that includes the other post-code fantasy titles.

 

 

Something has been niggling at me for a while and I finally realized what it is. (see bold red above).

 

Even those who say Pre-Hero Marvel should just be ST, TOS, JIM and TTA, basing it on how heroes evolved from just these titles, they seem to forget Spider-Man. He came out of the progression of Amazing Adventures 1-6 which carried over into Amazing Adult Fantasy 7-14 which led to Amazing Fantasy 15 which ultimately gave us ASM 1.

 

Take THAT Bembridge Scholars!

[Bronty]

Calling Strange Tales 1, for example, "pre-hero Marvel" is really strange. As a 1951 Atlas comic it doesn't fit the Kirby/Ditko style criteria, is not a Marvel, and if it is "pre-hero," it is pre the Atlas revival of superheros that occurred a year or so later.

 

I really don't see the point of a "pre-hero Marvel" label, given the books in question were Atlas. But, if you're going to use it, it makes a lot more sense to use the label to describe the Kirby/Ditko monster books as those at least have some (arguable) relationship to the subsequent Marvel comics.

 

We batted this around on the PH thread and the general consensus was

 

JIM 50 up

ST 67 up

TOS 1up

TTA 1up

SW 1up

Worlds of fantasy 14? up (I forget)

Amazing adventures 1up

 

That's what I pushed for and what holds up best to debate. Very late 1958 and up. The whole direction of the company changed at that time and they launched SW, TTA, TOS all at the same time. JIM 50 and ST 67 were issued at the same time with noticeable changes in the titles as well.

 

Note also, that around early/mid 1960 the way the company identified itself on the indicia changed from Atlas to Marvel. (Well before FF1).