Can we talk about the 90's?

[ninanina]

The horrors of the 90's.. I've finally experienced it. I read Marvel Presents.

 

And, because I took about 20 issues on the plane with me to Mexico, I was kinda' stuck having nothing else to read. Weapon X wasn't bad, but I do remember a Captain America story that read like it was written by me.

 

I was still buying new comics all through the 90's and I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't realize how bad some of this stuff was. But, I've never read Silver Age or Bronze Age on a regular basis and had nothing to compare it.I didn't realize a significant drop in quality from the 80's to the 90's. But now that I've read some of those Marvel Presents stories....there must have been other stuff that was just as bad.

 

Wondering if the jump from reading Silver Age for three years to (specifically) Marvel Presents was what I needed to finally see the light?

 

I'm planning on re-reading everything as I want to re-experience the runs from the beginning. Am I in for a tough time when I reach the 90's?

 

When exactly did all this awful stuff start.....and when did it end? Were all the runs involved?

 

Why exactly did this happen?

[Mephisto]

It was called Scarlet Spider and Norman coming back from the dead, and Aunt May isn't really dead she's an agent of SHIELD and Mary Jane has the clap she got it from Eddie Brock.

[ComicBookGuy]

When exactly did all this awful stuff start.....and when did it end? Were all the runs involved?

 

Why exactly did this happen?

 

There were a couple of reasons, and I'm sure this topic has been beat to death:

1) Many people were buying books for covers or completionism and not reading them.

2) Just having Wolverine in the comic sold it; it didn't have to be good. Same thing happened with Spider-man, Punisher, etc. Too many titles to maintain quality control.

3) People were hoarding books for investments. Here was a #1 with Wolverine AND the Silver Surfer. "Wow! This'll be worth a lot!"

4) "Artist" control went overboard at the expense of writing - BIG TIME!

[jbud73]

When exactly did all this awful stuff start.....and when did it end? Were all the runs involved?

 

Why exactly did this happen?

 

There were a couple of reasons, and I'm sure this topic has been beat to death:

1) Many people were buying books for covers or completionism and not reading them.

2) Just having Wolverine in the comic sold it; it didn't have to be good. Same thing happened with Spider-man, Punisher, etc. Too many titles to maintain quality control.

3) People were hoarding books for investments. Here was a #1 with Wolverine AND the Silver Surfer. "Wow! This'll be worth a lot!"

4) "Artist" control went overboard at the expense of writing - BIG TIME!

 

Hmm are we talking 90's or today

[jbud73]

The horrors of the 90's.. I've finally experienced it. I read Marvel Presents.

 

And, because I took about 20 issues on the plane with me to Mexico, I was kinda' stuck having nothing else to read. Weapon X wasn't bad, but I do remember a Captain America story that read like it was written by me.

 

I was still buying new comics all through the 90's and I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't realize how bad some of this stuff was. But, I've never read Silver Age or Bronze Age on a regular basis and had nothing to compare it.I didn't realize a significant drop in quality from the 80's to the 90's. But now that I've read some of those Marvel Presents stories....there must have been other stuff that was just as bad.

 

Wondering if the jump from reading Silver Age for three years to (specifically) Marvel Presents was what I needed to finally see the light?

 

I'm planning on re-reading everything as I want to re-experience the runs from the beginning. Am I in for a tough time when I reach the 90's?

 

When exactly did all this awful stuff start.....and when did it end? Were all the runs involved?

 

Why exactly did this happen?

 

Herb its called MAXIMUM CARNAGE - after that do not ready a spidey book for 5 years at least in fact pretty much post MX CAR, the only things worth reading more or less are Valiants and some DC Vertigo........

[shrunkenhead]

I've been catching up on some bad 90's reading as I work on my Spectre run...

 

Just read the "Zero Hour" mini yesterday. Horrible! Took the worst, most incomprehensible aspects of Crisis on Infinite Earths and blew them up larger than life. Almost as bad as that whole Spidey clone revival...

[Mephisto]

Almost as bad as that whole Spidey clone revival...

 

Hmm must have missed that. What was that about?

[Underdog]

Hey Kevin Boyd I'd love to see one of your long posts addressing the nineties and the questions posed above! What happened in the early nineties, when did it start, when (or if) did it end? Are the comic gods repeating it again now? Is there anything worth keeping, or reading, from that period?

I must go to work now but am hoping to see something good to read when I come home!!

Hehehehe!

[awe4one]

It's simple to pinpoint...

 

It all started with Jim Shooter, a strong advocate of good stories, being fired as Marvel EIC in 1987. This caused the eventual run-up of art and pretty covers over story that became the standard of the 90s.

 

Jim

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I can remember Marvel being so bad, I actually started reading Badger....and liking it!

[shadroch]

I can remember Marvel being so bad, I actually started reading Badger....and liking it!

 

hey Larry,

You make that sound like it was a bad thing.Mike Baron's Badger was a great book.Luved the Badger-mobile,not to mention the Badger-hound.Anyone who didn't read it was just another Larry to me.

[mcd-migration]

It all started with Jim Shooter, a strong advocate of good stories, being fired as Marvel EIC in 1987. This caused the eventual run-up of art and pretty covers over story that became the standard of the 90s.

 

I'm really not sure where that idea comes from, besides a nice 2 year run at Valiant. I never was real impressed with his Legion work. Went to Marvel & did a decent Avengers run surrounded by a bunch of mediocre stuff & the ungodly bad Secret Wars series 1 & even worse series 2. Created the New Universe for Marvel which even at it's best was really bad. OK, 2 years or so at Valiant where Shooter is given all the credit, followed by the disaster known as Defiant. From everything I read, Marvel lost a ton of top talent during his years because Shooter was extremely difficult to work with. I guess I'm just not a big fan.

 

As far as Marvel Presents, it started out nice but once the initial storylines ended it became pretty much an inventory book. Much the same way Marvel Fanfare had also started strong but was soon used as the occasional showcase book with a bunch of filler stuff. 90s had a ton of junk, but I think it also had a ton of books that read much better than most of the 80s stuff.

[shadroch]

I would give Shooter much credit for Marvels great run in the *80s,his "little bang"theory of evolution was far better than DCs attempt to fix their"crisis".

I would put the blame on Ron Pearlman who after buying a hugely successful company,tried to squeeze every last dime out of it. Under his "leadership" Marvel began its multiple 50 part cross-overs,the holgraphic,multiple covers,the endless procession of #1s,ect,ect,ad nauseum.

The fans themselves bear some rsponsability too,however.

In an example of mass hysteria,they suddenly seemed to want only books with either huge guns or shiny stuff on the covers. It no longer seemed to matter about story,or even if their heroes had two left hands,as long as a women with huge breasts holding a big,big gun was on the cover.

[FlyingDonut]

I can remember Marvel being so bad, I actually started reading Badger....and liking it!

 

Badgers!

[shrunkenhead]

as long as a women with huge breasts holding a big,big gun was on the cover.

 

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

[ninanina]

 

As far as Marvel Presents, it started out nice but once the initial storylines ended it became pretty much an inventory book. Much the same way Marvel Fanfare had also started strong but was soon used as the occasional showcase book with a bunch of filler stuff. 90s had a ton of junk, but I think it also had a ton of books that read much better than most of the 80s stuff.

 

Marvel Presents was never a comic I bought off the shelf. I bought a huge run recently as part of a huge modern lot I was able to pick up.

 

I continued buying 90's after many readers gave up. The negativity I've read on this forum (ie. Scarlet Spider, Secret Wars et all) were all comics I read during this period. Spider-Man (in particular) was getting a bit monotonous and I had on several occasions thought about cancelling it. But it never got so bad that I decided to stop buying it. I do remember giving up on Thor, Avengers and Captain America. So, I have not read the "90's" version of these titles and I've scrambled a bit in the last few years to fill in the holes.

 

(Guess that makes me a completionist)

 

Then, when I read an absolutely rediculous Captain America back-up story in the Marvel Presents run where the art was just as bad as the story (actually no - the story was worse than the art), I thought I finally realized what the negativity was all about. But, it seems (based on what I've heard so far) the negativity for the most part revolves around story-lines or ideas and not individual issues like the ones I experienced in Marvel Presents.

 

I am going to read these moderns again as well as the one's I didn't buy off-the-shelf. Maybe getting into Thor, Captain America and Avengers I'll see what the negativity is all about. I can't help feeling being familiar this time with the Silver and Bronze Age may put me in a position where I'll be able to scrutinize the stories a bit more. I'll at least have something other than the 80's to compare the 90's with.

 

Here's the point of all this....

 

Does one have to be a long-time (Silver/Bronze Age reader) to understand how bad the 90's really was? It's just that all I had to compare the 90's with, was the 80's. Wondering if that's enough.

[awe4one]

Does one have to be a long-time (Silver/Bronze Age reader) to understand how bad the 90's really was? It's just that all I had to compare the 90's with, was the 80's. Wondering if that's enough.

 

No...it all has to do with when you were exposed to comics and were hooked. Collectors of my generation look to the Bronze Age as being the best. Older collectors say Silver. Newer say 80s. And I bet in another decade there will be collectors who swear the 90s were the best thing since sliced bread when talking comics.

 

It all depends on when your Golden Age of collecting blossomed...and I don't buy it happens at 12 years old. It can but I think it happens when a reader fully appreciates and truly enjoys comics for the first time which can happen at any age and isn't necessarily the first comic they read. This is the age that will resonate for a lifetime in a comic collector's mind...

 

Jim

[Underdog]

Amen to that brother Jim. At the ripe old age of 44, I'm finding I'm loving the new stuff PLUS have an appreciation for the older books.

Wish I had never given em up!

[shadroch]

In the last few months I have read Avengers 1-400, and am now reading Captain America from TOS 58 thru Cap 200.I'm finding the pre 67 books absurd and barely entertaining.

The Cap tales before TOS 72 are childish.After that Stan seems to have spent more than a half hour per -script. Avengers before issue 40 are also way too simplistic. I think Avengers are one of the only Marvels that made it thru the 90s without being caught up in all the BB and BG hype that ruined most of Marvels books. Of course,thats discounting the absurd Liefield re-launch that I just ignore.

[ComicBookGuy]

In the last few months I have read Avengers 1-400, and am now reading Captain America from TOS 58 thru Cap 200.I'm finding the pre 67 books absurd and barely entertaining.

The Cap tales before TOS 72 are childish.After that Stan seems to have spent more than a half hour per -script. Avengers before issue 40 are also way too simplistic. I think Avengers are one of the only Marvels that made it thru the 90s without being caught up in all the BB and BG hype that ruined most of Marvels books. Of course,thats discounting the absurd Liefield re-launch that I just ignore.

 

Sounds like a cool project you are undertaking.

To be fair to those early issues, yes, they are childish, but the target audience for early Marvels was kids and teens when they were written. Reading these issues as a kid was a fantastic experience for me; reading them now as an adult is not tantamount to perusing Shakespeare but more like a rush of nostalgia.

Joe