So is pressing comics a common practice nowadays?

[Hero Restoration]

Every book I restore is measured, cover and pages. After a water wash, both cover and pages shrink. Both covers and pages have sizing, just different kinds. Replacing/adding the sizing can reverse the shrinking. Too much humidity will cause certain covers to shrink. Covers are more sensitive to shrinking than pages, but giving enough water, the pages will shrink too.

 

Every experiment I have done involving humidity/moisture/soaking has never demonstrated an expansion in dimensions once evaporated.

[joeypost]

Every book I restore is measured, cover and pages. After a water wash, both cover and pages shrink. Both covers and pages have sizing, just different kinds. Replacing/adding the sizing can reverse the shrinking. Too much humidity will cause certain covers to shrink. Covers are more sensitive to shrinking than pages, but giving enough water, the pages will shrink too.

 

Every experiment I have done involving humidity/moisture/soaking has never demonstrated an expansion in dimensions once evaporated.

 

I am assuming you have immersed many of the interior wraps in water Mike. What about those..same?

[mosconi]

So was it concluded that those Cole Schave books with the fanning pages on the right edge were caused by pressing with too much humidity (some people referred to it as the Costanza effect)? And was it ever explained why the right edge of the books would shrink (or interior pages expand) while the top and bottom would not? I take it that any high end books with these attributes now get closer scrutiny as being possibly pressed improperly.

[Hero Restoration]

Every book I restore is measured, cover and pages. After a water wash, both cover and pages shrink. Both covers and pages have sizing, just different kinds. Replacing/adding the sizing can reverse the shrinking. Too much humidity will cause certain covers to shrink. Covers are more sensitive to shrinking than pages, but giving enough water, the pages will shrink too.

 

Every experiment I have done involving humidity/moisture/soaking has never demonstrated an expansion in dimensions once evaporated.

 

I am assuming you have immersed many of the interior wraps in water Mike. What about those..same?

 

Many indeed. Here is a typical GA interior wrap:

 

Beginning measurements:

 

37.92cm Wide

25.82cm High

 

After wash:

 

37.65cm Wide

25.85cm High

 

Here is SA interior wrap:

 

Beginning measurements:

34.45cm Wide

25.81cm High

 

After wash:

 

34.18cm Wide

25.63cm High

 

 

 

 

 

[Hero Restoration]

So was it concluded that those Cole Schave books with the fanning pages on the right edge were caused by pressing with too much humidity (some people referred to it as the Costanza effect)? And was it ever explained why the right edge of the books would shrink (or interior pages expand) while the top and bottom would not? I take it that any high end books with these attributes now get closer scrutiny as being possibly pressed improperly.

 

Paper has a grain to it, so it will shrink differently vertical than it will horizontally. This is most prevalent in the early SA years, due to the type of paper that was used (Junk).

[rodan57]

A bad press is easier to spot, sometimes painfully obvious, especially when the spine is as flat as a communion wafer.

 

Rich imagery and appropriate imagery, especially if one views pressing as blasphemy.

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

A bad press is easier to spot, sometimes painfully obvious, especially when the spine is as flat as a communion wafer.

 

Rich imagery and appropriate imagery, especially if one views pressing as blasphemy.

 

 

I actually stole the communion wafer reference from our own Dr Watson as I liked it so much. From a personal standpoint, I think a press is fine for light folds and light creases that don't break color. I just don't like to see it used where it is not appropriate. Trying to squeeze out every spine tick on a 9.6 to get a 9.8 will leave the spine unnaturally thin.An original spine should have a little plumpness.

[joeypost]

Every book I restore is measured, cover and pages. After a water wash, both cover and pages shrink. Both covers and pages have sizing, just different kinds. Replacing/adding the sizing can reverse the shrinking. Too much humidity will cause certain covers to shrink. Covers are more sensitive to shrinking than pages, but giving enough water, the pages will shrink too.

 

Every experiment I have done involving humidity/moisture/soaking has never demonstrated an expansion in dimensions once evaporated.

 

I am assuming you have immersed many of the interior wraps in water Mike. What about those..same?

 

Many indeed. Here is a typical GA interior wrap:

 

Beginning measurements:

 

37.92cm Wide

25.82cm High

 

After wash:

 

37.65cm Wide

25.85cm High

 

Here is SA interior wrap:

 

Beginning measurements:

34.45cm Wide

25.81cm High

 

After wash:

 

34.18cm Wide

25.63cm High

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Mike. This type of restoration is not something I dabble in and it is nice to find out what others have observed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Every book I restore is measured, cover and pages. After a water wash, both cover and pages shrink. Both covers and pages have sizing, just different kinds. Replacing/adding the sizing can reverse the shrinking. Too much humidity will cause certain covers to shrink. Covers are more sensitive to shrinking than pages, but giving enough water, the pages will shrink too.

 

Every experiment I have done involving humidity/moisture/soaking has never demonstrated an expansion in dimensions once evaporated.

 

Yes, I misspoke. MOST paper has sizing, of different types, and at different levels. Newsprint is weak sized, which means it retains some level of absorbency, and doesn't have the gloss of the cover. Covers are (generally) hard sized, which gives the most gloss, reflectivity (actually, allows for these qualities of the ink itself to do this) and least absorbency so that the inks remain on the surface, rather than bleed into the paper. Pages (of the kind we are discussing) have no SURFACE sizing, which (most) covers do.

 

An example of covers that aren't surface sized would be Phantom Lady #16, which has cover quality of the same type as the interior pages (common on many GA books.)

 

However, I disagree with the concept that adding more water necessarily shrinks the pages, at least in certain cases. On the contrary, sizing is added to prevent capillary action, which causes paper fibers to expand. This is why many stains look "puffy."

 

And stains can be most obvious on the edges of the covers, because when the finished books are cut, the "unsized" paper fiber on the edges is exposed, allowing liquid to wick much easier than on the surfaces (easily seen on many books with distribution ink/paint.)

 

Yes, as the paper dries and is exposed to heat, that moisture is removed from the book, and there will be some shrinkage of some sort, depending on the quality of the paper, the quality/level of the sizing, etc. Since the interior pages are subject to less direct heat than the covers, they will be less affected by this "shrinkage." It is my opinion that the surface sizing of the covers does what it is intended to do and PREVENTS more dramatic expansion and subsequent shrinkage to occur.

 

So...do we have covers that expand, then shrink? Do we have pages that expand, then shrink? Do we have a little from column A, a little from column B?

 

And, naturally, all paper retains some level of natural moisture throughout its life, until the end, when the paper becomes brittle and turns to dust. So, the weak sized interior pages are going to retain a bit more humidity (and thus, expansion) than the covers, if they've gotten wet, or even damp.

[RockMyAmadeus]

As I've said in a few other places, I don't believe the covers are shrinking in these instances...but that the interior pages are getting humidified and expanding, as they have no sizing to control fiber expansion. This is an easy thing to reproduce.

 

Joey tried to reproduce this and wasn't able to, at least not that I saw reported. Have you reproduced this effect?

 

Yup.

 

Before and after pics?

 

Yup, when I get a chance. I've got some cheapo books I can work on when I have time.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Every book I restore is measured, cover and pages. After a water wash, both cover and pages shrink. Both covers and pages have sizing, just different kinds. Replacing/adding the sizing can reverse the shrinking. Too much humidity will cause certain covers to shrink. Covers are more sensitive to shrinking than pages, but giving enough water, the pages will shrink too.

 

Every experiment I have done involving humidity/moisture/soaking has never demonstrated an expansion in dimensions once evaporated.

 

I am assuming you have immersed many of the interior wraps in water Mike. What about those..same?

 

Many indeed. Here is a typical GA interior wrap:

 

Beginning measurements:

 

37.92cm Wide

25.82cm High

 

After wash:

 

37.65cm Wide

25.85cm High

 

Here is SA interior wrap:

 

Beginning measurements:

34.45cm Wide

25.81cm High

 

After wash:

 

34.18cm Wide

25.63cm High

 

 

 

 

 

Couple of questions:

 

Are you measuring the wraps when fully wet?

 

Are the wraps being treated individually (dried, pressed, etc? I assume the answer to this would be an obvious yes.)

 

If so...have you done any measurements of pages from books that have not been disassembled?

 

Also, have you done any measurements of partially dampened pages?

 

Have you done measurements for different types of moisture, that is, steam, mist, spray, and immersion/soaked?

 

You had said you had never experienced an expansion in dimensions, but your GA wrap example given here showed a vertical expansion of .03 CM.

 

Yes, as you explained, paper does have a grain, which is why pages will expand horizontally, rather than vertically.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, one other quick note...the page size differences you pointed out, MCP, are visible, but when folded, less than the thickness of a US dime (1.51 MM)...that, I assume, is with pages treated individually, rather than the (much more common) "whole book press" that is being done.

 

In any event, I think everyone is in agreement that too much hydration is the culprit, whether the interior pages have expanded, the cover has contracted, or a little of both.

 

Unfortunately, it's a very delicate balancing act that must be performed. Not enough hydration, and the paper fibers won't respond, or they will "bounce back" over time. Too much, and you get rippling, cockling, and, of course, "expansion/shrinkage." I have gotten books from clients that were done by other top pressers, that looked like they hadn't been touched...though I imagine they came out of that press looking perfectly fine. Not enough hydration, and the paper memory took hold and bounced back.

 

If anyone thinks high quality pressing is something that is easy, and one just needs a press, and a couple of books to practice on...think again.

[Sqeggs]

So was it concluded that those Cole Schave books with the fanning pages on the right edge were caused by pressing with too much humidity (some people referred to it as the Costanza effect)? And was it ever explained why the right edge of the books would shrink (or interior pages expand) while the top and bottom would not? I take it that any high end books with these attributes now get closer scrutiny as being possibly pressed improperly.

 

During the epic discussion of this issue, I don't remember CGC ever conceding that there was a problem with how these books were graded or indicating that they intended to adjust their grading criteria. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, though.

[Bomber-Bob]

So was it concluded that those Cole Schave books with the fanning pages on the right edge were caused by pressing with too much humidity (some people referred to it as the Costanza effect)? And was it ever explained why the right edge of the books would shrink (or interior pages expand) while the top and bottom would not? I take it that any high end books with these attributes now get closer scrutiny as being possibly pressed improperly.

 

During the epic discussion of this issue, I don't remember CGC ever conceding that there was a problem with how these books were graded or indicating that they intended to adjust their grading criteria. Perhaps I'm forgetting something, though.

 

The only response from CGC was that they grade the book in front of them without any knowledge of what the book originally looked like. CCS, specifically Matt, responded they he was working on preventing this from happening. The thread eventually died without any real resolution.

[Bomber-Bob]

Not enough hydration, and the paper fibers won't respond, or they will "bounce back" over time. Too much, and you get rippling, cockling, and, of course, "expansion/shrinkage." I have gotten books from clients that were done by other top pressers, that looked like they hadn't been touched...though I imagine they came out of that press looking perfectly fine. Not enough hydration, and the paper memory took hold and bounced back.

 

If anyone thinks high quality pressing is something that is easy, and one just needs a press, and a couple of books to practice on...think again.

 

Thanks for these comments. While I know nothing about the mechanics of pressing, your comments validate what I have been saying about the press reverting in the slab. I have seen it happen. Spine ticks that weren't there when I purchased the book 'suddenly' appear in the slab. I actually think this may explain why some books may seem overgraded by CGC. CGC grades what is in front of them at submission time. If the paper memory returns it no longer looks the same.

[InvstmntComcSuply]

So was it concluded that those Cole Schave books with the fanning pages on the right edge were caused by pressing with too much humidity (some people referred to it as the Costanza effect)? And was it ever explained why the right edge of the books would shrink (or interior pages expand) while the top and bottom would not? I take it that any high end books with these attributes now get closer scrutiny as being possibly pressed improperly.

 

Original hypothesis

 

more detail

 

I don't think sizing has much if anything to do with it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Not enough hydration, and the paper fibers won't respond, or they will "bounce back" over time. Too much, and you get rippling, cockling, and, of course, "expansion/shrinkage." I have gotten books from clients that were done by other top pressers, that looked like they hadn't been touched...though I imagine they came out of that press looking perfectly fine. Not enough hydration, and the paper memory took hold and bounced back.

 

If anyone thinks high quality pressing is something that is easy, and one just needs a press, and a couple of books to practice on...think again.

 

Thanks for these comments. While I know nothing about the mechanics of pressing, your comments validate what I have been saying about the press reverting in the slab. I have seen it happen. Spine ticks that weren't there when I purchased the book 'suddenly' appear in the slab. I actually think this may explain why some books may seem overgraded by CGC. CGC grades what is in front of them at submission time. If the paper memory returns it no longer looks the same.

 

Thanks Bob, glad to be of help. Yes, it's true, flaws can, and do, return, even inside the slab. Not nearly as severely, but it does happen.

 

What's the answer? I really don't know, other than pressers being very diligent with their craft, and perhaps not releasing books for a short time period (2-5 days) to make sure the press "sets."

 

CGC must grade the book that is front of them; they have no way of knowing what might happen to the book in the future.

 

It's definitely something that customers need to be aware of.

[Bomber-Bob]

 

Yes, it's true, flaws can, and do, return, even inside the slab. Not nearly as severely, but it does happen.

 

What's the answer? I really don't know, other than pressers being very diligent with their craft, and perhaps not releasing books for a short time period (2-5 days) to make sure the press "sets."

 

 

This may explain another phenomena, the 'apparent' generous grades given to onsite grading. Today, onsite grading means onsite pressing. The books are probably still warm when CGC grades them.

 

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

We talked about this in the Schave thread also...

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Yes, it's true, flaws can, and do, return, even inside the slab. Not nearly as severely, but it does happen.

 

What's the answer? I really don't know, other than pressers being very diligent with their craft, and perhaps not releasing books for a short time period (2-5 days) to make sure the press "sets."

 

 

This may explain another phenomena, the 'apparent' generous grades given to onsite grading. Today, onsite grading means onsite pressing. The books are probably still warm when CGC grades them.

 

 

That's a problem I have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about.

 

Books can look reallllly good straight out of the press, even when completely cool.

 

Give it a day or two, then show me.

 

 

Unfortunately...I don't know what the answer is, unless it's CGC not doing onsite grading anymore, and that's probably not going to happen.

 

:shrug:

 

I feel like there are a lot of important issues that the market needs to discuss, that aren't being discussed because of trade secrecy, and not wanting to upset the apple cart. I do not oppose pressing, obviously, but it is a lot easier to do it wrong than it is to do it right. Good pressing turns out some wonderful results, lasting results, that, in my opinion, helps the long term survival of a book, but it's just too easy to screw it up. We're talking about decades old paper that was disposable, after all.