OAAW 83's potential to be a top 5 SA key?

[Gatsby77]

Ditto, DC's Showcase Presents volume of the first 25 or so Sgt. Rock books starts with GI Combat 68, then goes to OAAW 81, 82, 83, etc.

 

And I'm still not convinced that's not Sgt. Rock on the cover of OAAW 81.

 

The cover straight-up announces "Featuring The Rock of Easy Company." And for those who would argue that "The Rock" =/= "Sgt. Rock," then what of 83, where the story title is "The Rock and the Wall," where "The Rock" clearly refers to Sgt. Rock?

 

The fairly-recent revisionist history that 83 is the first "true" appearance after 40 years' consensus on 81 strikes me as a small but vocal minority that's trying _way_ too hard.

[1950's war comics]

Ditto, DC's Showcase Presents volume of the first 25 or so Sgt. Rock books starts with GI Combat 68, then goes to OAAW 81, 82, 83, etc.

 

And I'm still not convinced that's not Sgt. Rock on the cover of OAAW 81.

 

The cover straight-up announces "Featuring The Rock of Easy Company." And for those who would argue that "The Rock" =/= "Sgt. Rock," then what of 83, where the story title is "The Rock and the Wall," where "The Rock" clearly refers to Sgt. Rock?

 

The fairly-recent revisionist history that 83 is the first "true" appearance after 40 years' consensus on 81 strikes me as a small but vocal minority that's trying _way_ too hard.

 

Very good points and that's why even as a war comic collector I am steering clear of pricey Sgt Rock issues period and am collecting a set of pre Rock issues.

[jjeanius]

My point exactly.

[thirdgreenham]

DC published a millennium edition of OOAW 81, which certainly implies that even DC considers 81 to be the first Sgt. Rock. So...how did public opinion on this one change (and what is to stop it from reverting back?

 

IMO, this debate also limits upside of this book.

 

My guess is that on this particular occasion DC were following fan consensus rather than making it clear to fandom which issue contained his actual first appearance. Because there were quite a few prototype appearances of the character spread over several years before DC arrived at the definitive version, this was practically a unique case in that regard - fandom dictating to the publisher which was the genuine first one.

 

Fan opinion changed due to Chris Pedrin's Big 5 book explaining that the character in OAAW 81 was Sgt. Rocky, not Rock. Within a few years, the consensus changed. I don't see it reverting back, however, even though 81 is still a highly significant issue.

 

(thumbs u

 

#81 says "The Rock" on the cover. Inside is someone named Sgt Rocky. Nowhere does Sgt Rock appear in this book.

[thirdgreenham]

DC published a millennium edition of OOAW 81, which certainly implies that even DC considers 81 to be the first Sgt. Rock. So...how did public opinion on this one change (and what is to stop it from reverting back?

 

IMO, this debate also limits upside of this book.

 

My guess is that on this particular occasion DC were following fan consensus rather than making it clear to fandom which issue contained his actual first appearance. Because there were quite a few prototype appearances of the character spread over several years before DC arrived at the definitive version, this was practically a unique case in that regard - fandom dictating to the publisher which was the genuine first one.

 

Fan opinion changed due to Chris Pedrin's Big 5 book explaining that the character in OAAW 81 was Sgt. Rocky, not Rock. Within a few years, the consensus changed. I don't see it reverting back, however, even though 81 is still a highly significant issue.

 

(thumbs u

 

#81 says "The Rock" on the cover. Inside is someone named Sgt Rocky. Nowhere does Sgt Rock appear in this book.

 

Okay, so 81 actually says "The Rock of Easy Co." as Gatsby said, but without anyone named Sgt. Rock in the book, it's obviously a prototype, and also obviously, still a very important book. (thumbs u

[MusterMark]

Ditto, DC's Showcase Presents volume of the first 25 or so Sgt. Rock books starts with GI Combat 68, then goes to OAAW 81, 82, 83, etc.

 

And I'm still not convinced that's not Sgt. Rock on the cover of OAAW 81.

 

The cover straight-up announces "Featuring The Rock of Easy Company." And for those who would argue that "The Rock" =/= "Sgt. Rock," then what of 83, where the story title is "The Rock and the Wall," where "The Rock" clearly refers to Sgt. Rock?

 

The fairly-recent revisionist history that 83 is the first "true" appearance after 40 years' consensus on 81 strikes me as a small but vocal minority that's trying _way_ too hard.

 

Very good points and that's why even as a war comic collector I am steering clear of pricey Sgt Rock issues period and am collecting a set of pre Rock issues.

 

The detailed discussion of 81vs. 83 was exactly that: detailed.

It took place many years ago.

It ended many years ago.

It ended with overwhelming support for, and affirmation of, 83 as the true first appearance, by those involved with this discussion.

Thus, Overstreet began calling 83 the first true appearance as well, and started including detailed notes within the listings of 81, 82 and 83 to help educate collectors.

I myself was not part of this discussion but some of our esteemed boardies ( and non-boardies) were in it, including long-time war collectors and dealers.

I would say that those who are now dredging up 81 either are not aware of the details of that discussion or simply do not care. I would certainly think they are very much in the minority but I could be wrong.

It may be helpful to those who are bringing up 81 if someone were to perhaps provide a link to this discussion or provide reference to say a particular Overstreet issue containing discussion within the War Report, or something like that ...

 

[Jeffro.]

The Sgt Rock lineage has been confusing for years. Way too many prototypes. If you look at 81, it has problems with being considered the first appearance of Rock. 83 is undisputedly Rock

[Jeffro.]

Well, given that at one time, OAAW 81 was considered the first appearance, not many people would have recognized 83. People tend to forget that part of the equation. No one disputes that AF15 or Action 1 is the first app of comic characters.

Hell, at one time GI Combat 68 was considered the first appearance of Rock.

 

83 has had, and still does have, a lot of ground to make up.

 

I'm still in the camp where 81 is the 1st app. of the Rock.

 

If you haven't already, read both 81 and 83.

[Illustrious]

Overstreet began calling 83 the first true appearance as well, and started including detailed notes within the listings of 81, 82 and 83 to help educate collectors.

 

I would say that those who are now dredging up 81 either are not aware of the details of that discussion or simply do not care.

 

(thumbs u

[thecollectron]

I'm a fan of OAAW and I think #83 is a significant SA key, but even so, I don't think it will crack the top 5 anytime soon. As others on this thread have stated, it would have to jump over too many superhero keys.

Although,...in GA, superhero books that have been sacred for decades have moved down the ranks and Pep #22 is moving up, so never say never about anything in this hobby.

If Sgt. Rock could make a multiverse crossover in an upcoming Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy movie sequel then OAAW #83 would take off like a...rocket.

 

Pep 22 is a great comparison to 83.

Yeah, I love reading the Sgt. Rock strip in the paper and seeing the Sgt. Rock digests at the supermarket checkouts and reading the few dozen hundreds of Sgt. Rock issues that have been published in the last 25 years.

 

I wasn't comparing popularity of the characters, just noting how the rankings have changed over the years in GA. For instance, Marvel #1 has slipped to 5th place and Whiz #2 has fallen out of the top 10 entirely. Currently, the top 10 GA books are still superhero keys, but in seven years Pep #22 has moved from 45th to 11th. I doubt that OAAW #83 will do the same in SA, but shifts in collectors’ priorities over many years can make anything possible. That was my point.

[thecollectron]

Ditto, DC's Showcase Presents volume of the first 25 or so Sgt. Rock books starts with GI Combat 68, then goes to OAAW 81, 82, 83, etc.

 

And I'm still not convinced that's not Sgt. Rock on the cover of OAAW 81.

 

The cover straight-up announces "Featuring The Rock of Easy Company." And for those who would argue that "The Rock" =/= "Sgt. Rock," then what of 83, where the story title is "The Rock and the Wall," where "The Rock" clearly refers to Sgt. Rock?

 

The fairly-recent revisionist history that 83 is the first "true" appearance after 40 years' consensus on 81 strikes me as a small but vocal minority that's trying _way_ too hard.

 

We collector nerds are the ones who care about the small details.

The consensus on #81 might only have been that of the Overstreet advisors and it's possible that none of them actually remembered reading that issue and comparing it to the surrounding ones. It also seems likely to me that no one at DC debated it for days and days either. Someone, somewhere, might have looked at the cover of #81, flipped through it, figured it must be the first Sgt. Rock, and that got etched in OSPG stone for years. That's just my guess about how it went.

Chris Pedrin is a passionate and knowledgeable collector of DC war books, with complete runs of each title. When he published the Big Five Information Guide in 1994, he had read all the comics, identified all the prototypes, and made a thoughtful argument in favor of #83 being the first Sgt. Rock.

 

I already had a copy of #81 before Chris' book was published, and I remember thinking that it was a bit of a stretch to call it the 1st app. of Sgt. Rock (especially since he was called Sgt. Rocky). The story in #83, to me at least, reads like the beginning of a series of new adventures of a character named Sgt. Rock. I'm not drinking Kool-Aid or trying too hard, but having read the stories myself I took the pro-#83 side.

I have GIC #68 and OAAW #81, #82, and #83 with no desire to sell any of them so their relative perceived value and significance in the hobby doesn't really affect me. I just think it's an interesting conversation, like MPFW #1 vs. Marvel #1 or Flash #24 vs. All-Star #5.

[Jeffro.]

 

The fairly-recent revisionist history that 83 is the first "true" appearance after 40 years' consensus on 81 strikes me as a small but vocal minority that's trying _way_ too hard.

 

Or possibly examining the evidence at hand, ie actually reading the comics, and making conclusions based on that evidence.

[comick1]

 

The fairly-recent revisionist history that 83 is the first "true" appearance after 40 years' consensus on 81 strikes me as a small but vocal minority that's trying _way_ too hard.

 

Or possibly examining the evidence at hand, ie actually reading the comics, and making conclusions based on that evidence.

 

Speaking for myself, when Pedrin first started discussing Rock with me in 1990 or 91, OAAW 81 and 83 were both barely 30 years old (1959) and Overstreet was barely 20 years old at that point (1970). Chris may have been discussing it for considerably longer than that, but that's when I first became aware of it. For those first 20 years, EVERY war book was birdcage liner--virtually worthless in the guide because there was hardly ANY kind of organized fan-base. Overstreet may have given the #81 and a few others the obligatory boost each year, but I'd doubt that it had much if anything to do with any perceptible fan-base or any actual sales data. I was reading ANY fan mags (CBM, CBG, Comics Journal, Overstreet Update/Monthly, etc.) I could get my hands on and there was nary a word expended on war books until Pedrin's guide came out--far more bleak a landscape for Big-5ers back then. The Big-5 banquets/auctions we've held every year were an incredibly rare opportunity to discuss things exactly like this. We're on year 21 for those, by the way.

 

That quarter century of history isn't contrived and neither was it "trying way too hard." It happened gradually, calmly, and with the people who continue to be devoted fans and who actually read and collect the war books based on their merits as great examples of comic art (rather than because it's the flavor of the day or next Hollywood rumor), it was a no-brainer. Most of the old-guys had both books, so didn't care either way. . .and we didn't need to "try way too hard" with them because they all agreed. Nobody batted an eyelash simply because the informed and reasoned arguments in favor of #83 overwhelmed those in favor of #81.

 

To be sure, NOBODY DISagreed that the "#83-as-the-key" arguments are necessarily compatible with the (ahem) rank & file superhero 1st appearances that are so explicitly defined; but that's EXACTLY what makes this seem anachronous. That's why we're still having this conversation. Things that break out of the mold. . .the "accepted-wisdom" paradigm rarely make for easy pills to swallow. The war comics, western, romance, funny animal, sci-fi, and other non-superhero genres are all nuanced and should be analyzed within the context of THEIR own genres rather than through the narrow lens of superhero norms which admittedly comprise 95% (or more) of fandom.

 

25 years is neither "fairly-recent" nor "revisionist." And my brief outline above would suggest that there was anything but 40 years of consensus on OAAW #81. To be more accurate would be what TheCollectron said about the guys at Overstreet making a notation--more like an afterthought--about it in the first OPG (1970) when neither the #81 or #83 was worth more than one whole dollar and nobody CARED enough (or had the tenacity and patience to provide a reasonable defense as we've done for the past 25 years now) about ANYTHING outside of superheroes to make that kind of correction stick.

 

Well, it's been 25 years. All the war comics fans agree (No, I don't consider the guys who chase keys and own 2 war books "war comics fans" no matter HOW many times they scream "budda budda" or "takka takka"). Overstreet agrees, finally made the correction, and is willing to provide the more nuanced terminology and descriptions for what makes the #83 THE KEY. . .

. . .and it IS sticking.

 

Yes, opposition exists, but let the court records reflect that the folks who don't "sip from the #83 kool-aid" are certainly fighting their OWN good fight. Under the circumstances, far be it for ANYbody to ever accuse the #81 camp of "trying way too hard."

 

 

 

Hollywood and all the speculators who spend infinite hours and $$ chasing the next big key. . .now THAT's revisionist (Nova? Seriously?).

 

[Jeffro.]

Hollywood and all the speculators who spend infinite hours and $$ chasing the next big key. . .now THAT's revisionist (Nova? Seriously?).

 

It cracks me up. People could have sought out (for DECADES) and found as many high grade copies of books like Nova 1 and Ms Marvel 1 that they wanted for almost nothing. Now that they are hot because of movie speculation, people are all too willing to pony up nosebleed prices.

[AlexanderM]

Hollywood and all the speculators who spend infinite hours and $$ chasing the next big key. . .now THAT's revisionist (Nova? Seriously?).

 

It cracks me up. People could have sought out (for DECADES) and found as many high grade copies of books like Nova 1 and Ms Marvel 1 that they wanted for almost nothing. Now that they are hot because of movie speculation, people are all too willing to pony up nosebleed prices.

 

If it cracks you up at at one points books could be had for almsot nothing, and then later when they become hot (for whatever reason) people are willing to fork up a lot of money...

 

.... then the whole hobby cracks you up.

 

Because at some time almost any book could be had for nothing... until something happened. Either Marvel started printing more issues and titles using that particular hero, or Marvel made a movie based on it, and so on. And suddenly it was popular, people loved it, and Marvel focused more on it - thus spreading awareness even more. A positive spiral. The positive spiral that cracks you up.

[rjpb]

Hollywood and all the speculators who spend infinite hours and $$ chasing the next big key. . .now THAT's revisionist (Nova? Seriously?).

 

It cracks me up. People could have sought out (for DECADES) and found as many high grade copies of books like Nova 1 and Ms Marvel 1 that they wanted for almost nothing. Now that they are hot because of movie speculation, people are all too willing to pony up nosebleed prices.

 

It is rather bizarre to watch the obsession with newly minted "keys" among silver an bronze age books. The first appearances of minor supporting characters who later put on a costume, with little impact on fandom for 30 years, but are now finally "hot". Completely obscure characters, forgotten for decades, but who will show up in some supporting role in a movie or TV show. C list heroes who have been around for decades, and generally had a hard time supporting a solo title, but are tagged for a movie despite no sizable fan base.

 

I'll admit, it sometimes seems like it could be fun digging this stuff up ahead of the wave, and in part it's the inevitable direction of collecting in each era as runs and major keys become more expensive, and no doubt some of these characters will perhaps earn the status that makes their first appearances true "key" books, but some of this stuff seems a real stretch.

 

 

First appearance of short-order cook Tommy Griddle who later became the villain Flapjack before getting a sex-change operation and becoming Hotcake when joining the Legion Defending Justice ( 1st series), which has been announced as a series on Youtube for 2018.

[Jeffro.]

Hollywood and all the speculators who spend infinite hours and $$ chasing the next big key. . .now THAT's revisionist (Nova? Seriously?).

 

It cracks me up. People could have sought out (for DECADES) and found as many high grade copies of books like Nova 1 and Ms Marvel 1 that they wanted for almost nothing. Now that they are hot because of movie speculation, people are all too willing to pony up nosebleed prices.

 

If it cracks you up at at one points books could be had for almsot nothing, and then later when they become hot (for whatever reason) people are willing to fork up a lot of money...

 

.... then the whole hobby cracks you up.

 

Because at some time almost any book could be had for nothing... until something happened. Either Marvel started printing more issues and titles using that particular hero, or Marvel made a movie based on it, and so on. And suddenly it was popular, people loved it, and Marvel focused more on it - thus spreading awareness even more. A positive spiral. The positive spiral that cracks you up.

 

Well, except for those of us who bought the stuff for almost nothing instead of being a lemming and only buying it because of a movie announcement

[Gatsby77]

Hollywood and all the speculators who spend infinite hours and $$ chasing the next big key. . .now THAT's revisionist (Nova? Seriously?).

 

It cracks me up. People could have sought out (for DECADES) and found as many high grade copies of books like Nova 1 and Ms Marvel 1 that they wanted for almost nothing. Now that they are hot because of movie speculation, people are all too willing to pony up nosebleed prices.

 

It is rather bizarre to watch the obsession with newly minted "keys" among silver an bronze age books. The first appearances of minor supporting characters who later put on a costume, with little impact on fandom for 30 years, but are now finally "hot". Completely obscure characters, forgotten for decades, but who will show up in some supporting role in a movie or TV show. C list heroes who have been around for decades, and generally had a hard time supporting a solo title, but are tagged for a movie despite no sizable fan base.

 

I'll admit, it sometimes seems like it could be fun digging this stuff up ahead of the wave, and in part it's the inevitable direction of collecting in each era as runs and major keys become more expensive, and no doubt some of these characters will perhaps earn the status that makes their first appearances true "key" books, but some of this stuff seems a real stretch.

 

 

First appearance of short-order cook Tommy Griddle who later became the villain Flapjack before getting a sex-change operation and becoming Hotcake when joining the Legion Defending Justice ( 1st series), which has been announced as a series on Youtube for 2018.

 

Yeah - but it happened before the mad movie rush, too.

 

I remember 1991, when Iron Man 55, Warlock and Deathlok suddenly became a thing.

 

True - maybe there were legit Warlock collectors, but Iron Man 55 went from a $10 book to a $150 book in 90 days and was actually selling for more than Iron Man 1 for a hot second (at least in Philly).

 

And nobody cared about Deathlok before the announcement of his ongoing series.

 

It's hard for me to take high-print late '70s Marvels like Ms. Marvel 1, Nova 1, and even Star Wars 1 seriously as collectibles, let alone the books I bought off the stands in the early 90s.

 

Oh, wait -- I'll be back in a sec -- I've got to go stock up on X-Men 266...

[jimjum12]

OAAW 81 has a way way better cover GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Jeffro.]

It's hard for me to take high-print late '70s Marvels like Ms. Marvel 1, Nova 1, and even Star Wars 1 seriously as collectibles, let alone the books I bought off the stands in the early 90s.

 

I tend to agree. I think books like these are the prototypical sell high books.

 

HOWEVER, a book like Star Wars 1 may buck that trend long term, especially now that Disney owns the property and will keep it in the public consciousness for a long, long time.