OAAW 83's potential to be a top 5 SA key?

[Aman619]

For those that might not know OAAW#83 is a first appearance of the unknown soldier, later to become known as Sgt.Rock. The series lasted over 40 years just like alot of hero books. It being printed in 1959 actually puts it at the farthest end of the SA. What I would say is that even at $16,000 comparing GPA sales and comparing prices to hero books it is underpriced. This is evidenced in auctions for the book where it may jump $1000 in the last few minutes. I just think that looking strictly at a books GPA price in order to place it in terms of real value in the guide is not giving this books sufficient dues. However as CGC will tell you scarcity is does not determine value so even a pedigree in the highest grade regardless of how rare will not see the book going for 50-100k. So in reply to the OP I would say this book will never break the top 10.However I am biased for the book so it really does deserve to be in the top 20 without a doubt.

 

What??

 

I think he said AN unknown soldier... Not THE unknown soldier.

[comick1]

The answer, of course, is no. While yes, OOAW #83 is the single most desired war book of all, it pales in comparison to the multi-generational appeal of Spidey. FF, Thor, and even Iron Man, and the X-Men, etc.

 

There's simply no chance.

 

The reason the book is so valuable is because it is so scarce. Put it up in equal extant terms with a Fantasy #15, and it loses 60% or more of its value.

 

I love DC war, and have a couple long boxes worth, including several OOAW (sold my #82 and #83 in '02 or '03 ), but it's far, far too niche.

 

War books just aren't going to gain the longterm popularity stranglehold that Superheroes have had since the 60's.

 

Yessssssssssss. . .

[H0RR0RSH0W]

For those that might not know OAAW#83 is a first appearance of the unknown soldier, later to become known as Sgt.Rock. The series lasted over 40 years just like alot of hero books. It being printed in 1959 actually puts it at the farthest end of the SA. What I would say is that even at $16,000 comparing GPA sales and comparing prices to hero books it is underpriced. This is evidenced in auctions for the book where it may jump $1000 in the last few minutes. I just think that looking strictly at a books GPA price in order to place it in terms of real value in the guide is not giving this books sufficient dues. However as CGC will tell you scarcity is does not determine value so even a pedigree in the highest grade regardless of how rare will not see the book going for 50-100k. So in reply to the OP I would say this book will never break the top 10.However I am biased for the book so it really does deserve to be in the top 20 without a doubt.

 

What??

Serves me right for trying to turn this into a wikipedia page!

[Aman619]

I have to work on my reading skills!

[Illustrious]

There's been rumblings of a Sgt. Rock movie for years now, if it ever comes to fruition...BOOM:

 

http://dcmovies.wikia.com/wiki/Sgt._Rock_%28film%29

[JollyComics]

I guess I don't see it as a top 20, much less a top 5 book anytime in the near future.

 

Value-wise there are probably 100 Marvels and maybe 50 DC's ahead of it.

 

Only about 100 on the census.

 

Am I missing something?

 

I'm afraid the answer is Yes. Very, Very much so.

 

Value-wise there are probably only a handful of SA books ahead of it actually, a far, far cry from the 150 you estimate. Overstreet is so behind the curve on this, it is appalling. The prices quoted in Overstreet do not even begin to tell the story, they are so low, and so removed from reality for this book. There is only one 8.0 at second-highest graded, and only one at the highest graded 9.0. The 8.0 went for $16,000, if I recall correctly, and it would likely be much higher today. The book is THE MAJOR War SA key and is very hard to find, period. In higher grades, it is next to impossible to find. That is why there are so few on the census!

 

The 9.0 copy is never shown in a public. I just wonder when it will come out? If Sgt Rock will be in the movie, probably it will come out. Who knows?

[JollyComics]

For those that might not know OAAW#83 is a first appearance of the unknown soldier, later to become known as Sgt.Rock.

 

huh

 

Agree with Jeffro. Umm, there is something amiss here, no?!

('Tis the first true appearance of Sgt. Rock, not the Unknown Soldier).

 

Me too. Last Sgt Rock prototype in #81, First true appearance of Sgt. Rock (Joe Kubert continuing his work of Sgt Rock in the series) in #83. Much later.....first appearance of the Unknown Soldier in #168. Keep in that order. Remind that Sgt Rock met Unknown soldier in #168. Both are totally different but they are soldiers.

[bronze johnny]

if this book is so valuable, what would the 9.0 copy of OAAW 83 sell for today?

 

My guess is the 9.0 would sell for $25K-$30K.

 

Andy, I'm reading the arguments against any potential increase for 83 and just can't help but wonder - do those making this argument understand that 83 just recently moved into the top 20 Overstreet SA keys (despite not being mentioned on the list)? I'm fascinated by this. Moreover, we are not just talking about a key war book but the key war book. What also makes this interesting is the fact that in mid grades 83 is selling higher on average than SC 22, DD 1, FF 4, FF 5, and GL 1..

[H0RR0RSH0W]

For those that might not know OAAW#83 is a first appearance of the unknown soldier, later to become known as Sgt.Rock.

 

huh

 

Agree with Jeffro. Umm, there is something amiss here, no?!

('Tis the first true appearance of Sgt. Rock, not the Unknown Soldier).

 

Me too. Last Sgt Rock prototype in #81, First true appearance of Sgt. Rock (Joe Kubert continuing his work of Sgt Rock in the series) in #83. Much later.....first appearance of the Unknown Soldier in #168. Keep in that order. Remind that Sgt Rock met Unknown soldier in #168. Both are totally different but they are soldiers.

Ahh much insight on that matter I have gained! My mistake thinking the prototype Rock in #81 as being called the unknown soldier. I was just trying to acknowledge the significance of the issue and a major character that appeared regularly for the next 29 years.

 

[Illustrious]

And yet, some are dismissing just how far this key has come.

 

Usually a portion of the naysayers in a thread like this want to put a damper on the attention and enthusiasm the book is attracting until they themselves can get a a copy. Not saying that applies across the board, but definitely something I've noticed on the board in my 4 years here. The interesting thing is to watch for the naysayers to post a copy of said book in their siglines sometime down the road or post a copy of it in the "what's new in your collection this week" thread.

[bronze johnny]

And yet, some are dismissing just how far this key has come.

 

Usually a portion of the naysayers in a thread like this want to put a damper on the the attention and enthusiasm the book is attracting until they themselves can get a a copy. Not saying that applies across the board, but definitely something I've noticed on the board in my 4 years here. The interesting thing is to watch for the naysayers to post a copy of said book in their siglines sometime down the road or post a copy of it in the "what's new in your collection this week" thread.

 

Excellent observation (thumbs u

[Bronty]

if this book is so valuable, what would the 9.0 copy of OAAW 83 sell for today?

 

My guess is the 9.0 would sell for $25K-$30K.

 

Andy, I'm reading the arguments against any potential increase for 83 and just can't help but wonder - do those making this argument understand that 83 just recently moved into the top 20 Overstreet SA keys (despite not being mentioned on the list)? I'm fascinated by this. Moreover, we are not just talking about a key war book but the key war book. What also makes this interesting is the fact that in mid grades 83 is selling higher on average than SC 22, DD 1, FF 4, FF 5, and GL 1..

 

Great book but to be fair the only reason mid grades do so well is because high grades can't be found. Is mid grade iS hg for this book. If there was a 9.8 as nice as that would be I think it would be crushed by marvel SA key 9.8s.

[JollyComics]

For those that might not know OAAW#83 is a first appearance of the unknown soldier, later to become known as Sgt.Rock.

 

huh

 

Agree with Jeffro. Umm, there is something amiss here, no?!

('Tis the first true appearance of Sgt. Rock, not the Unknown Soldier).

 

Me too. Last Sgt Rock prototype in #81, First true appearance of Sgt. Rock (Joe Kubert continuing his work of Sgt Rock in the series) in #83. Much later.....first appearance of the Unknown Soldier in #168. Keep in that order. Remind that Sgt Rock met Unknown soldier in #168. Both are totally different but they are soldiers.

Ahh much insight on that matter I have gained! My mistake thinking the prototype Rock in #81 as being called the unknown soldier. I was just trying to point out the significance of the issue and a major character that appeared regularly for the next 29 years.

 

There are the early prototypes of Sgt Rock in GI Combat and All American Men of War before the last one in OAAW. The character was experimented like few prototypes of Spider-man, Hulk, Dr. Doom, The Watcher and other possible superheroes in Tales of Suspense, Tales to Astonish and Amazing Adult Fantasy. All superheroes were popular then all old titles were dropped out. Sgt Rock kept Our Army at War to carry over for more years.

[drbanner]

Great book but to be fair the only reason mid grades do so well is because high grades can't be found. Is mid grade iS hg for this book. If there was a 9.8 as nice as that would be I think it would be crushed by marvel SA key 9.8s.

This is a good point, look at the value of the top 5% of copies of each of the top 20 SA books, and where does this book stand? When you're comparing a VF sale of this book to DD1, you're comparing one of the best copies out there to a book that has ~250 better copies available.

 

A top 5 SA key? Which of these books is it going to bump?

 

Amazing Fantasy 15

Fantastic Four 1

Incredible Hulk 1

Showcase 4

Spidey 1

X-men 1

Journey into Mystery 83

Tales of Suspense 39

B&B 28

 

This is a great niche book, but Sgt Rock is not part of the DC superhero mythos or really even part of the DC Universe. Someone earlier mentioned the historical interest in WWII and the "greatest generation" as possible impetus for value added to this book, but that interest sells Stephen Ambrose books, not comic books. A Sgt. Rock movie might help, esp if there's crossover with Superman or something like that.

 

[bronze johnny]

if this book is so valuable, what would the 9.0 copy of OAAW 83 sell for today?

 

My guess is the 9.0 would sell for $25K-$30K.

 

Andy, I'm reading the arguments against any potential increase for 83 and just can't help but wonder - do those making this argument understand that 83 just recently moved into the top 20 Overstreet SA keys (despite not being mentioned on the list)? I'm fascinated by this. Moreover, we are not just talking about a key war book but the key war book. What also makes this interesting is the fact that in mid grades 83 is selling higher on average than SC 22, DD 1, FF 4, FF 5, and GL 1..

 

Great book but to be fair the only reason mid grades do so well is because high grades can't be found. Is mid grade iS hg for this book. If there was a 9.8 as nice as that would be I think it would be crushed by marvel SA key 9.8s.

 

- Hypothetically speaking, you could be right. However, the fact is there isn't one. Mid grade is high grade and the 9.0 is in the hands of a collector who plans on keeping it along time.

 

- So we can speculate and provide reasons as to why 83 sells more than the others in midgrade - the fact is it does.

 

- Perhaps the reason why it's taken so long for 83 to begin to enter the realm of top books has to do with its relatively recent redefining as the true first appearance of Rock.

 

- What also makes 83 one of the most amazing SA keys has to do with the evolutionary development of the Rock. Where else in the history of the SA did it take so long and so many prototypical issues to do before a character had come into his/her own? The story of the creative path leading to Kanigher and Kubert's Rock is unique in its own right. 83 is one of the most unique keys ever.

 

Respectfully,

 

John

 

 

[bronze johnny]

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fitems%2Easp%3Fid%3D3879%26FROM%3D%26TO%3D&id=1014302

 

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fitems%2Easp%3Fid%3D3879%26FROM%3D%26TO%3D&id=1034393

 

http://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fitems%2Easp%3Fid%3D3879%26FROM%3D%26TO%3D&id=1023178

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Our-Army-at-War-83-June-1959-DC-1st-true-app-of-Sgt-Rock-CGC-4-0-/371158843729?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item566aca8151

[bronze johnny]

Great book but to be fair the only reason mid grades do so well is because high grades can't be found. Is mid grade iS hg for this book. If there was a 9.8 as nice as that would be I think it would be crushed by marvel SA key 9.8s.

This is a good point, look at the value of the top 5% of copies of each of the top 20 SA books, and where does this book stand? When you're comparing a VF sale of this book to DD1, you're comparing one of the best copies out there to a book that has ~250 better copies available.

 

A top 5 SA key? Which of these books is it going to bump?

 

Amazing Fantasy 15

Fantastic Four 1

Incredible Hulk 1

Showcase 4

Spidey 1

X-men 1

Journey into Mystery 83

Tales of Suspense 39

B&B 28

 

This is a great niche book, but Sgt Rock is not part of the DC superhero mythos or really even part of the DC Universe. Someone earlier mentioned the historical interest in WWII and the "greatest generation" as possible impetus for value added to this book, but that interest sells Stephen Ambrose books, not comic books. A Sgt. Rock movie might help, esp if there's crossover with Superman or something like that.

 

Hey Mike,

 

One point you're missing is that 83 is moving up without a movie or support from other mediums (tv, merchandise, etc.). What happens when the movie hype dies down for some of these characters? (And it will)

 

Calling 83 a niche book is underestimating its place in the history of the American Comic Book - to say that the greatest and most significant war character and book is niche...

 

I didn't just refer to the "greatest generation" - I didn't refer to Tom Brokaw's reference as exclusive to WW II. Each generation has its wars as we currently see. The Rock represents the heroes of these wars - Billy Tucci had a successful miniseries about the Rock not to long ago. WW II continues to capture the imagination of many and will likely do so for future generations. And wars have sold comics and will likely do so over time - whether the wars occur in Vietnam, Africa, Iraq, and/or Afganistan. The 'Neverending War" has many stories to tell and the comic book medium will to some extent join books, television, and film in telling the courageous stories of the men and women who continue to serve their countries. And some of those stories will be told through the greatest representation of these heroes in our comic book medium - Sgt. Rock.

 

I sometimes wonder if Ambrose borrowed from Kanigher and Kubert without ever crediting them?

 

Best,

 

John

 

 

[Bronty]

if this book is so valuable, what would the 9.0 copy of OAAW 83 sell for today?

 

My guess is the 9.0 would sell for $25K-$30K.

 

Andy, I'm reading the arguments against any potential increase for 83 and just can't help but wonder - do those making this argument understand that 83 just recently moved into the top 20 Overstreet SA keys (despite not being mentioned on the list)? I'm fascinated by this. Moreover, we are not just talking about a key war book but the key war book. What also makes this interesting is the fact that in mid grades 83 is selling higher on average than SC 22, DD 1, FF 4, FF 5, and GL 1..

 

Great book but to be fair the only reason mid grades do so well is because high grades can't be found. Is mid grade iS hg for this book. If there was a 9.8 as nice as that would be I think it would be crushed by marvel SA key 9.8s.

 

- Hypothetically speaking, you could be right. However, the fact is there isn't one. Mid grade is high grade and the 9.0 is in the hands of a collector who plans on keeping it along time.

 

- So we can speculate and provide reasons as to why 83 sells more than the others in midgrade - the fact is it does.

 

- Perhaps the reason why it's taken so long for 83 to begin to enter the realm of top books has to do with its relatively recent redefining as the true first appearance of Rock.

 

- What also makes 83 one of the most amazing SA keys has to do with the evolutionary development of the Rock. Where else in the history of the SA did it take so long and so many prototypical issues to do before a character had come into his/her own? The story of the creative path leading to Kanigher and Kubert's Rock is unique in its own right. 83 is one of the most unique keys ever.

 

Respectfully,

 

John

 

 

Again, it's a great book, Sgt Rock is a personal favorite of mine. But you were asking if it was a top five key and using a value in grade based approach to support your idea. I'm saying that's it not and that your analysis is apples and oranges due to the book not existing in certain grades. Let me give you a similar example. There is one tales to astonish in the pre hero part of the run that exists in 9.8; #30. It's a similar sort of market in prehero where vf is high grade and 9.0 is often high census. The seller had an ask of 30k based on pricing by grade extrapolation. Eventually he put it to auction and it got like 25% of his ask or something. The demand above a certain dollar level just wasn't there. I think this book is similar in that there's a limit to what people will pay no matter how nice the copy. Obviously this book has a higher ceiling than Tta 30, but the concepts are the same.

 

So answering your question boils down to what metrics you use to define top five SA key. No one considers value in VF or value in 9.0 as what makes a top key. They might consider overall demand or if they look at value they are going to look at 'what does the best available copy to for?'. On that basis this book great as it is will get crushed.

[bronze johnny]

if this book is so valuable, what would the 9.0 copy of OAAW 83 sell for today?

 

My guess is the 9.0 would sell for $25K-$30K.

 

Andy, I'm reading the arguments against any potential increase for 83 and just can't help but wonder - do those making this argument understand that 83 just recently moved into the top 20 Overstreet SA keys (despite not being mentioned on the list)? I'm fascinated by this. Moreover, we are not just talking about a key war book but the key war book. What also makes this interesting is the fact that in mid grades 83 is selling higher on average than SC 22, DD 1, FF 4, FF 5, and GL 1..

 

Great book but to be fair the only reason mid grades do so well is because high grades can't be found. Is mid grade iS hg for this book. If there was a 9.8 as nice as that would be I think it would be crushed by marvel SA key 9.8s.

 

- Hypothetically speaking, you could be right. However, the fact is there isn't one. Mid grade is high grade and the 9.0 is in the hands of a collector who plans on keeping it along time.

 

- So we can speculate and provide reasons as to why 83 sells more than the others in midgrade - the fact is it does.

 

- Perhaps the reason why it's taken so long for 83 to begin to enter the realm of top books has to do with its relatively recent redefining as the true first appearance of Rock.

 

- What also makes 83 one of the most amazing SA keys has to do with the evolutionary development of the Rock. Where else in the history of the SA did it take so long and so many prototypical issues to do before a character had come into his/her own? The story of the creative path leading to Kanigher and Kubert's Rock is unique in its own right. 83 is one of the most unique keys ever.

 

Respectfully,

 

John

 

 

Again, it's a great book, Sgt Rock is a personal favorite of mine. But you were asking if it was a top five key and using a value in grade based approach to support your idea. I'm saying that's it not and that your analysis is apples and oranges due to the book not existing in certain grades. Let me give you a similar example. There is one tales to astonish in the pre hero part of the run that exists in 9.8; #30. It's a similar sort of market in prehero where vf is high grade and 9.0 is often high census. The seller had an ask of 30k based on pricing by grade extrapolation. Eventually he put it to auction and it got like 25% of his ask or something. The demand above a certain dollar level just wasn't there. I think this book is similar in that there's a limit to what people will pay no matter how nice the copy. Obviously this book has a higher ceiling than Tta 30, but the concepts are the same

 

How about top 10 if not 5?

[bronze johnny]

Bronty, I'm fine with it not making the top 5 - I raised the question since it might provide a better idea as to where 83 may finally end up on the list. Again, I'm looking at the book's potential to get to the top 5- not saying it belongs there, but also not dismissing it as a major SA key. (thumbs u