Are the CGC slabs exclusive to CGC?

[jaybuck43]

So the quality control thread got me thinking. Yes that particular example looks like it was a situation where someone cracked the side of the case, slid out the book and replaced it. However....

 

I am curious, does CGC have exclusivity over the encapsulation they use. If anyone can order the slabs they use then what is stoping an a bad grading company, such as PGX as we all know they are not exactly the most upstanding name in the world, from running the following scam.

 

Purchase a high grade CGC book and a mid grade copy of the same book. Crack out the CGC book and remove the label as well as the book. Resubmit the book to CGC. Take the label and pair it with the raw version of the book. Reseal and encapsulate. Now you have the legitimate high grade copy (which should come back at the same grade it was in when you cracked it out) as well as a low/mid grade book in a high grade slab. So when you sell you break even on the resell of the legitimate high grade, plus the difference between the high grade reseal and the cost of the raw.

 

So yea, I hope CGC has some way of making sure that only they can order those slabs.

[kav]

Black market slabs from the manufacturer out the back door by a guy named Jimmy??

[Broke as a Joke]

China can manufacture anything...

[Doohickamabob]

China can manufacture anything...

...except rhino horns.

[dupont2005]

Pretty sure CGC has exclusives with the slab. I'd imagine it was developed in house and trademarked.

 

But when you manufacture overseas you take certain risks. As far as I can tell, the rumors that bootleg merchandise is the same exact thing as genuine merchandise just stolen from the factory is false 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean someone who works in one factory and has intimate knowledge of a product, and access to a product, couldn't also work at another, less reputable factory.

 

And I know for a fact if an American wanted to commission some bootlegs it can be done for a price. Some can even be completely indistinguishable from the real thing, which is happening now with some old out of production aftermarket car parts these days. Bronze cast in a foundry, not hard to recast and use the same materials.

 

Not sure how difficult it would be to reverse engineer and manufacture a slab, probably not too hard though if the tools were already there and the workers were familiar with plastic.

[catrick339]

Pretty sure CGC has exclusives with the slab. I'd imagine it was developed in house and trademarked.

 

But when you manufacture overseas you take certain risks. As far as I can tell, the rumors that bootleg merchandise is the same exact thing as genuine merchandise just stolen from the factory is false 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean someone who works in one factory and has intimate knowledge of a product, and access to a product, couldn't also work at another, less reputable factory.

 

And I know for a fact if an American wanted to commission some bootlegs it can be done for a price. Some can even be completely indistinguishable from the real thing, which is happening now with some old out of production aftermarket car parts these days. Bronze cast in a foundry, not hard to recast and use the same materials.

 

Not sure how difficult it would be to reverse engineer and manufacture a slab, probably not too hard though if the tools were already there and the workers were familiar with plastic.

.

 

At a guess I'd say the halves were made by an injection molding process. Heat up beads of plastic in a long tube, force them into a mold that clamshells or presses two halves together. Cool the mold and open it back up and a plastic half falls out.

 

Lots of places that can do that sort of job, but you'd need an exact replica of the molds for both halves. VERY expensive for what is really a small potato scam.

 

Midnight requisition from the original manufacturer or somebody has figured out how tot 3D print them would be more likely.

[jaybuck43]

Commercial 3d printers would not be able to do the job. The build volume on most is not large enough. And even then the translucent abs spools Ive used never look as good as the slabs.

[Buzzetta]

Possible ? I believe it is possible.

 

Is it happening or will it happen? Doubtful.

[jaybuck43]

I don't think this is actually going on. But it got me thinking. We already know that PGX plays scams including cracking out old CGC books and upgrading the books. We also know they "witness" signatures. What's to stop them from passing off a CGC label (the more trusted label) as their own.

 

O and again, regarding the 3d printer, the largest makerbot (the z18) can only do 11.8 inches. I believe the slabs are well over a foot in length.

[W16227]

I don't think this is actually going on. But it got me thinking. We already know that PGX plays scams including cracking out old CGC books and upgrading the books. We also know they "witness" signatures. What's to stop them from passing off a CGC label (the more trusted label) as their own.

 

O and again, regarding the 3d printer, the largest makerbot (the z18) can only do 11.8 inches. I believe the slabs are well over a foot in length.

 

So - entirely possible to reverse engineer the slabs. Actually - not that difficult with some of the equipment readily available in the engineering community.

 

Laser scans are getting cheaper - and the slab itself is really not all that complex. I could probably design out a replica of a given slab size in a day or two - only using the measurement system in our lab (laser scan would be even easier and quicker).

 

Problem would be making them. The 3d printer we have - more than large enough to make a slab - but the materials are not there - and probably will not be for some time. The clarity of the slabs is what 3d printing really cannot reproduce.

 

Black market slabs? - entirely possible if a molder (or employee) is not ethical. Not common in many ways - and can be mitigated by sticking to reputable mold houses.

 

Someone could have their own molds built - and that would be where the risk lies. Aluminum molds that produce 10,000 parts are not expensive and the design of the slabs is really not that complex.

 

We can get complex plastic designs tooled up at a short run mold shop in under three weeks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[comicwiz]

The possibilities of having someone produce a knock-off outer case and inner well exists, and even if it's procured by an offshore maker who are moving the parts from their back door, the difficulty comes with assembling these parts and replicating the seal process. Not something that can be done without considerable cost, appropriate machinery/equipment and a knack for reproducing a slab in a convincing manner. The fact the collecting community has been handling, examining, scrutinizing and sharing photos/scans of the CGC slab for over a decade makes it possible for a knock-off to be produced capable of fooling some, but not everyone.

 

IMHO loose parts floating around from a thriving CSR market is where attention should be focused. A population of post perfect outer case breaches, with almost effortless peel-away early label wells, and a crafty graphic designer with an intent to deceive would be an area of greater concern. Tracking label changes in font, layout and design would be important to stay one step ahead, as these changes could be used by a perp to use a throwback approach to offset familiarity (think modern red/burgundy labels, small font/number labels, etc.).

 

Loose parts, both reproduction in part or whole and original, have been brought back into play with MOC SW toys. I continue to catch numerous ungraded, and more recently, certified fake specimen. With AFA, repurposing a breached acrylic case is next to impossible, however there are a number of acrylic case makers that produce very similar case designs, including AFA themselves producing an acrylic case with a sliding bottom that is an exact match to the case they use to grade SW MOC's.

 

I put a mind-numbing amount of time into educating myself, researching, and tracking this element with my hobby pursuits. My advice is simple - regardless of what you collect, certified collectibles constantly need to be scrutinized, and you need to keep your squint on in situations where a significant amount of money is involved. No hobby or collector is insulated from the deceptive plays and activities going on, and scammers will gravitate to areas of collecting where people feel most comfortable in exchanging money for goods. The lull that's produced by believing certification is a foolproof save haven enables perps, and online commerce, advancements in trickery, and the value stored in the things we collect all act as incentives.

[bug33fouf]

[jaybuck43]

Idea for CGC. Place labels on all four corners (similar to the one on the top of the slab but much smaller on the sides). Make those labels void if removed (similar to the ones CVA uses)

[comicwiz]

You still are faced with the dilemma of floating parts in play, being repurposed. Unless CGC voids the warranty on all slabs pumped out before making revisions/modification (which I highly doubt they would do unless they intend to enrage the entire community), you still need to be aware of how these parts are being utilized to deceive.

[jaybuck43]

Yea this is correct I was just thinking of a forward solution.

[W16227]

Yea this is correct I was just thinking of a forward solution.

 

All kinds of tamper evident labels that could help - they just need to make sure they are strong enough to take some level of handling. I have new slabs with a loose top label - would hate to have a "void" cert without those.

 

As far as replicating the assembly process - that is not rocket science and there are inexpensive sonic welders out there. By inexpensive - I mean less than 5k (the big mass production units are more).

 

What I would think is the real deterrent to this - the risk/reward.

 

Hypothetical - say someone was able to get a line on all the materials and equipment to do this. While doable - it will be costly. Throw a junk number out there - lets say 20K for molds, sealer, sonic welder, and specialized printer to replicate the grade labels.

 

To get back that 20K - you have to fake a larger # of lower cost books or a smaller number of higher cost books.

 

 

Those higher cost books (AF15, early actions, etc) - generally would go to more knowledgeable collectors - so BS detection rate is higher and more likely to get caught when traceable back to the source.

 

Lower cost books - they would need to fake more to get back the initial $$ and make any reasonable cash, so books may trade hands more often, but then there are many more chances for detection.

 

I would be much more worried about "mugging" rather than copying. I have seen some posts with respect to switching out one book with another without breaking the slab. With all "original" pieces - much harder to detect unless someone got really greedy (going for too much of a grade boost). I would think that this situation would be easier to correct going forward than trying to make the whole thing copy proof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrBedrock]

I put a mind-numbing amount of time into educating myself

A numb mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[shadroch]

The problem is that you guys don't think like crooks.

[jaybuck43]

I thought that was the point of my post to think like a crook