Do you guys find there is less material to purchase these days?

[vodou]

In comic art, like most things, you get out what you put in.

 

The chaos Eric describes on eBay and CAF today is what affords opportunity, good eyes will always find good art at the right or even better price. (It just may not be comic art, or at least not the hottest names/titles.) With organization and ready-made solutions comes cost of overhead and administration. Not to mention every hand out to make percentage points as they step on it.

 

Any of you ever notice there are some collectors that always seem a bit ahead, getting there (and buying up all the best pieces) before the rest on new artists, styles, ways of visually communicating? Or forgotten/ignored Masters before they're remembered/acknowledged? These collectors are what I'm talking about, good eyes (likely married to good business sense overall). These same sort were buying Basquiat in 1980 and 81. And probably all done by 83. On to other things.

 

The other side is the exceptionally organized Heritage experience and to a lesser extent CL. It's all right there, zero effort needed, especially curatorial. And you pay a lot for that. Probably too much. Only time will tell if the well-bid sales of the last few years pay off beyond inflation or not. Those paying $5k for a Kirby 1977 Cap panel page with only the Falcon on it...that's where I get off the train.

 

The sweet spot was fifteen to twenty years ago (we need to stop saying ten, it's not that anymore) when things were just organized enough that you could zip around buying up large quantities of good solid material with ease and the competition base was low. And more importantly confused. Most dealers didn't do credit cards, it was cash or time (cash) payments only. eBay was the same, and you sent your money and crossed your fingers (I got taken a number of times.) Returns simply didn't exist. People wouldn't take your phone calls or return e-mails, especially to resolve complaints, even less customer service than today. You needed to develop your own sense of what you wanted to collect and have the balls to run directly at it - wallet in hand and wide open. The hobby was hardly fully populated or mature, most people didn't collect the same stuff. Bicentennial Kirby Cap, second run Cockrum X-Men (as an examples) were reviled. Really and truly. It was easy to get. But caveat emptor...nobody told you how many stats were on a page, how much whiteout, water/coffee stains, creases/folds/tears/razor slices, missing chunks, panels taped in (non-archival masking tape) from behind, all that, it was trench-fighting, and the buyer got hosed more often than not. Again...no returns. Tough luck. It was chaos (but I also probably overstate the case, a lot of nice art was simply...NICE.)

 

So on balance the risk was more balanced and there was a reward in that too...you got out what you put in. This has not changed.

 

Understand too many of those players are still here, myself included, though we may have slowed or stopped acquiring, moving on to other things. But we remember what it was like back then, maybe having lived the same experience in several other hobby lives since (good eyes will always find...) and have no intention of giving away what we worked so hard to unearth and took all sorts of sketchy risks to get. We have a lot of art, middle to upper middle to feed this market, but we'll dole it out sparingly and make today's collectors reward us for the good contrarian sense and risks we took back then. I think that's probably fair too, but I'm interested in hearing other opinions...?

 

If you think you may have good eyes, are a bit contrarian, the good art is still out there, but...stop looking where everybody else is. Stop collecting what they collect, self-curate, and go looking for that 'whatever' instead. And then run at with wallet wide open

[Eric Seffinga]

Well said.

[Garf]

As a new collector at the low end I think that there aren't as many deals to be had now as there were say in 2010, but even 5 years ago if you are only looking to spend $50 - $200 on pages (and stretch a bit further every now and again) then you would still have been left picking at the carcass. I don't know if I am a typical example of what my generation is looking for but when it comes to late 80's to 90's stuff the availability of passable examples has lessened but the pool 5 years ago was small at that point anyway. I agree with Aelhra that the better times regarding choice and price mean going further back (of course my only points of reference are second hand from forums and archive.org).

 

It's not helped by quite a lot of people having returned to the hobby who are now competing for what is left. In those last 5 years plenty have returned to the fold via one gateway or another or simply because they are at that stage in their life where they are settled enough to have time and money for a hobby again. One other thing I have noticed is that people into their modern comics make some OA seem positively cheap... it baffles me when the latest manufactured collectible / variant issue comes out and sells for over $200 out of the gate when you could get the OA for a similar price (sometimes less). New collectors may not be able to take advantage of having OA equity in hand to trade up but we certainly can exploit the floppy market to our advantage (either modern or from our longboxes)... again adding to the competition.

 

There's still plenty of modern stuff to be had though if you still read current titles but it won't exactly hit that nostalgia sweet spot in the same way that pages from books you have read and re-read over time will. They don't even have to be key pages for me to be memorable enough to really enjoy them. As an example if you go back to say 2007 then there were still quite a few pages from Knightfall floating around to be had, even in early 2012 there were some up for sale from lesser known dealers. Nowadays not so much. In fact stuff from some of my Batman era... Aparo / Breyfogle / Nolan Knightfall & Legacy (or the earlier Tec', Bats, SotB runs) ... just doesn't get let go that often. I can only imagine that in some cases people won't want to let go because they will struggle to get hold of something similar again ... or you get these hateful people who decide they want to amass an amazing collection of art from one title and buy it all up creating the scarcity e.g. Balent, Catwoman or Dillon, Preacher. They can all go to hell

 

I don't watch all markets like a hawk but I check in often enough to know what is generally scarce or where the competition is. Unfortunately for me I am interested in a lot of stuff which is quite popular. One thing I have come to appreciate though is that this hobby shouldn't be a sprint to the finish, it's more of a marathon. Even if there isn't a lot of choice out there today there is always the next thing around the corner tomorrow or the next day. You also have to try and cast a wider net with your searches.

 

e.g. http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/31016216_balent-jim

[delekkerste]

I'm seeing more material to purchase than ever these days. Granted, much of the available material has moved to the auction houses from the dealer sites and eBay. And, perhaps some material (e.g., Byrne X-Men, Kirby FF, Watchmen, etc.) is not as plentiful as it used to be, as much of the material has made it into strong hands over the past decade and is not changing hands as rapidly.

 

That said, I feel like some of the crazy prices we started seeing in the market between 2010-2012 really broke down a lot of peoples' reluctance to sell, and that, overall, a lot of quality art has and is surfacing at auction. I mean, sure, a lot of material is also getting recycled, but my feeling is that a lot of people feel like prices have gotten high enough that they aren't risking leaving a lot of money on the table by ringing the register nowadays, and so every auction cycle is bringing out pieces that haven't been seen in years.

 

I think that feeling is, if anything, growing these days. Why? Because the overall OA market is, by most accounts, up only modestly over the past couple of years. Of course, there are exceptions, but the overall market certainly isn't running away like it was in 2009-2012. As such, I have found that a lot of people who were more hesitant to sell privately a couple of years ago for fear of the market continuing to bound ahead and/or missing out on a huge potential windfall at auction, are more willing to part with their art - I have certainly found over the past few months that cash is speaking much louder than it did in headier times.

 

Don't get me wrong - no one is giving away their art, but it seems like more people are willing to sell if you put a strong cash offer on the table, whereas that was not as common a couple of years ago. So, bottom line, between all the material turning up at auction and owners being more willing to deal these days (which requires initiative on the part of buyers in the latter case, to be sure), I'm finding more material than ever to buy. Between several potential private transactions in the hopper and all the material turning up at auction next month, I'm personally overwhelmed by choice and am going to have to start passing on items firmly in my wheelhouse - there's just too much art coming to market these days than I can personally keep up with.

[vodou]

...(of course my only points of reference are second hand from forums and archive.org).

. Remember when Romitaman looked like this?

https://web.archive.org/web/20020131150038/http://www.romitaman.com/romitaman001.html

And that was iirc an upgraded look from the older unarchived version.

 

This listing steps out at me, an uncharacteristically (for the hobby as a whole) honest description:

 

Conan #83 Pg.1 SPLASH $475.00

Ernie Chan, Inks. Very nice 1970's full splash page with Conan & Sabia The Witch Woman. Word Bubbles Have Yellowed.

 

And probably, in part, why guys like Burkey are still here and so many others aren't. Playing straight tended to build customer loyalty in the Wild West, that was lost on many shoestring wannabe dealers of the day!

 

Another pitfall (of risk with dubious reward to follow?) was the "not known if published" stuff that came out of artist closets. Such as:

 

Incredible Hulk Cover $300.00

John Tartaglione, Inks.Very nice 1970s drawing of the Hulk in a GREAT pose in front of a carnival!! This could be a published Calendar piece, or pinup?? Art is regular cover size art, but entire cover image is cut out and pasted onto another art board. Image looks fine!!

 

I remember this one well, can right now still see the image in my head. Wanted very badly to buy it, went back and forth, but could never prove it was published, so I ultimately passed. There was more of this type of art out there than you may think...and some of the gems were there to be plucked if you knew or could figure it out as published but buy at "not known" price. Either way, $300 for this in 2001 wasn't bad and I think we can add at least a zero today (and maybe change the 3 to a 5 in the front) if it was indeed published (I still don't know!) The tradeoff, for me, back then was something like this vs. one or even two second run Cockrum X-Men panel pages. Ummm...with really solid action/team fighting/Wolverine in costume type content. It turns out, just a matter of degree of winning in the long run

 

It was such a fun time. When things got too organized, as those interesting opportunities faded, I sort of did too (from comic art) and moved over to other less-tended art gardens.

[vodou]

...I'm personally overwhelmed by choice and am going to have to start passing on items firmly in my wheelhouse - there's just too much art coming to market these days than I can personally keep up with.

Good for you Gene! I think too much opportunity forces serious opportunity cost analysis...very healthy for self-curation, tends to build a tighter, more successful (in terms of long term enjoyment) collection. IMHO :)

[Garf]

Spencer's site is another good one to dig around in with archive.org... there would have been a lot of very affordable pages I would have gone for. Nothing lofty... just enjoyable.

 

 

[Bird]

Albert Moy's old site is archived on there as well.

 

I am also finding much more art available that ever before. Is it Starman pages every week like 15 years ago? No, of course not. But it is good stuff every other month at Clink or Heritage (oh Marvel Premiere page how I covet you but alas you will likely elude my grasp) and I also, swimming in a much smaller pond a few pools over from Gene, am having trouble deciding where to spend my money.

 

And I don't believe in black hole collections. I used to think I had one, or at least a few black hole portfolios. But approaching age 50 and contemplating moving to Hawaii in ten years has me realizing that every one will sell eventually. That art is still out there, it hasn't disappeared.

[heartened]

Albert Moy's old site is archived on there as well.

 

I am also finding much more art available that ever before. Is it Starman pages every week like 15 years ago? No, of course not. But it is good stuff every other month at Clink or Heritage (oh Marvel Premiere page how I covet you but alas you will likely elude my grasp) and I also, swimming in a much smaller pond a few pools over from Gene, am having trouble deciding where to spend my money.

 

And I don't believe in black hole collections. I used to think I had one, or at least a few black hole portfolios. But approaching age 50 and contemplating moving to Hawaii in ten years has me realizing that every one will sell eventually. That art is still out there, it hasn't disappeared.

 

The term "black hole collector" is of course a bit of an exaggeration, but if you hold onto your art firmly for 10-20 years then that is usually beyond most people's ability to wait, and thus in effect your collection is a black hole in practical terms. Of course eventually everything comes out, from boredom, price escalation, death or other means. When people want a piece of art, they want it now or within a few months, maybe they'll wait a year. If yours is the type of collection where really nothing is gonna be let loose in significantly more time then that, then for all intents and purposes it is, to a potential buyer, a black hole.

 

[Bird]

Albert Moy's old site is archived on there as well.

 

I am also finding much more art available that ever before. Is it Starman pages every week like 15 years ago? No, of course not. But it is good stuff every other month at Clink or Heritage (oh Marvel Premiere page how I covet you but alas you will likely elude my grasp) and I also, swimming in a much smaller pond a few pools over from Gene, am having trouble deciding where to spend my money.

 

And I don't believe in black hole collections. I used to think I had one, or at least a few black hole portfolios. But approaching age 50 and contemplating moving to Hawaii in ten years has me realizing that every one will sell eventually. That art is still out there, it hasn't disappeared.

 

The term "black hole collector" is of course a bit of an exaggeration, but if you hold onto your art firmly for 10-20 years then that is usually beyond most people's ability to wait, and thus in effect your collection is a black hole in practical terms. Of course eventually everything comes out, from boredom, price escalation, death or other means. When people want a piece of art, they want it now or within a few months, maybe they'll wait a year. If yours is the type of collection where really nothing is gonna be let loose in significantly more time then that, then for all intents and purposes it is, to a potential buyer, a black hole.

 

While what you say may be true, it is also true that you gotta play the long game for the truly special pieces more often than not. And overall I think more art is coming to market than before, at least for things that appeal to me. Something comes out the other side of that black hole every time. I think most every one of us has a piece they are waiting on for far longer than a year should it become available. I have been chasing a two-page PCR Dr Strange piece from Ultimate Marvel team-Up, even going so far to drive two hours just to talk to Craig Russell about it. If I get it the day before I die it will all be worth it!

[eewwnuk]

from a newer modern collector perspective, i think there is plenty good art available.

 

what's not available are bargains or deals or some would say affordable art out there. by and large everything is fully priced and in many cases overpriced.

[heartened]

Albert Moy's old site is archived on there as well.

 

I am also finding much more art available that ever before. Is it Starman pages every week like 15 years ago? No, of course not. But it is good stuff every other month at Clink or Heritage (oh Marvel Premiere page how I covet you but alas you will likely elude my grasp) and I also, swimming in a much smaller pond a few pools over from Gene, am having trouble deciding where to spend my money.

 

And I don't believe in black hole collections. I used to think I had one, or at least a few black hole portfolios. But approaching age 50 and contemplating moving to Hawaii in ten years has me realizing that every one will sell eventually. That art is still out there, it hasn't disappeared.

 

The term "black hole collector" is of course a bit of an exaggeration, but if you hold onto your art firmly for 10-20 years then that is usually beyond most people's ability to wait, and thus in effect your collection is a black hole in practical terms. Of course eventually everything comes out, from boredom, price escalation, death or other means. When people want a piece of art, they want it now or within a few months, maybe they'll wait a year. If yours is the type of collection where really nothing is gonna be let loose in significantly more time then that, then for all intents and purposes it is, to a potential buyer, a black hole.

 

While what you say may be true, it is also true that you gotta play the long game for the truly special pieces more often than not. And overall I think more art is coming to market than before, at least for things that appeal to me. Something comes out the other side of that black hole every time. I think most every one of us has a piece they are waiting on for far longer than a year should it become available. I have been chasing a two-page PCR Dr Strange piece from Ultimate Marvel team-Up, even going so far to drive two hours just to talk to Craig Russell about it. If I get it the day before I die it will all be worth it!

 

Fair enough! I myself have done the same, but those examples are few and far between compared to the plethora of examples where you just can't get that damn piece out of someone's collection no matter what!

[Bronty]

A year is too short to be a barrier I agree but I like Hari's point overall..... it makes sense. 20 years isn't that much different than 100 years. Its just too long and makes the piece effectively unavailable.

[Bird]

Yes 20 years is forever I agree. 5 years is fine by me though. 10 years for a few pieces would be fine, by all means I hope they show up soon. (Where are all those Michael Golden portfolio plates? Only one shows up so far that I know of!) But we are all chasing 40 things at once as well, so if the black hole grabs something for 25 years we are soon gathered up into the orbit of some new planetary body!

 

 

[Bird]

For instance, this comic art con I will be sorely disappointed, SORELY DISAPPOINTED, if I do not walk out of there with one of two specific pieces. Both have been on my radar for over 5 years, easy. I don't have all cash or it would be guaranteed, but I have been watching these pieces for years.

[thethedew]

 

Fair enough! I myself have done the same, but those examples are few and far between compared to the plethora of examples where you just can't get that damn piece out of someone's collection no matter what!

 

Quoted for TRUTH.

 

While it may seem disingenuous to state this after having the biggest expansion of my collection so far last year, I am looking to have a very slow year THIS year. Last year was a confluence of tracking down and completing a few big 'known' quantities. Now they're all done, I have no particular leads left.

 

I can list off a few pieces, (some held by collectors who are likely unhappy that I found out their locations) but they just aren't budging.

 

The vast majority of collectors out there ARE Black Hole Collectors, and they don't like people knowing what they've got. A lot of disciplined, monolithic dudes.

[vodou]

The vast majority of collectors out there ARE Black Hole Collectors, and they don't like people knowing what they've got. A lot of disciplined, monolithic dudes.

I agree, but aren't you too, isn't your collection also?

[jjonahjameson1]

Hey guys,

I noticed that many dealers dont have those huge updates that were common in yesteryears. Also many websites dont get updated nearly as often. I talked with one dealer who went to a big show some months back and he said there was nothing to get there art wise. It seems to me with ebay not having much these days that Heritage and comic link are the main sources to satisfy our hunger. Do other people see it this way. This is just what I noticed in the last 12 months of collecting. I also wonder how this will effect prices. I guess people will be saving for HA and comic link auctions which means many pieces might end up getting more bidders then they would have had some years back. Maybe I am off...Just wondering what you guys think.

thanks,

Matthew

 

Personally, the last 12 months have been the opposite of what you describe. I've bought more art last year than I have in nearly a decade, and only 2 purchases were from HA or CLINK. The vast majority of my purchases came from CAF, and a few from Dealer sites and direct purchases from artists at conventions.

 

Perhaps with regards to your collecting needs, there wasn't much available last year due to one or more of the following:

 

1. Very specific collecting focus, therefore pieces within your specific collecting needs was not available

 

2. The material is priced out of your range/what you are willing to pay

 

3. The material you're interested is in 'black hole' collections

 

4. The pieces you want have sold/traded privately as the strength of this past years' auction results have been hit or miss, and seller's would prefer to get a guaranteed price by not consigning to an auction house

[thethedew]

The vast majority of collectors out there ARE Black Hole Collectors, and they don't like people knowing what they've got. A lot of disciplined, monolithic dudes.

I agree, but aren't you too, isn't your collection also?

 

Nope!

 

I share my collection on CAF, and, (while I concede the vast majority of my collection isn't going anywhere), believe it or not, I have occasionally sold pieces to select people who wish a representative piece in their collection. I can produce witnesses.

 

If you look closely, whole swaths of my collection is available for trade, though again for very specific pieces.

 

 

A far cry from collectors who are anonymously active in buying, share nothing on CAF or anywhere else (though likely internet active and market aware), laugh at other people's 'want' lists, and tell absolutely positively no-one what they own, for fear of being asked to... consider deals! (Gasp! Can you imagine? The horror! The horror!)

 

Yes, it appears I have an opinion on the matter. I'm shy and retiring in that way.

 

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make the distinction!

[alxjhnsn]

Though I consider my collection pretty much a black hole, I have sold two pieces and I put all of my collection up on the CAF.

 

If anyone cares, I sold a GA by Giordano and a Carol Day strip by David Wright) when I found ones I liked better. The first went to a friend I met through the comicart-l and this board. The other to an artist that really admired it.