The FF increasing reconaisance/price fever...

[Kermit the frog]

To everyone

 

The last time i saw the price guide for the FF run (below n°300, but specially below n°120) before my return to this medium was in the late 80's early 90's (when i left the medium).

 

I return in full force with the begining of the marvel renaissance period (1998 and the MK revolution) and stated a constant incresaing of the prices. Today, even from the last 6 years, the prices keep on steadly increasing.

 

What's interesting is that from the big three (AMS, X-men and the FF), FF was the one who it seems to me that increased very little on the price guide, up until the begining of the 90's to the end of the decade, but now, well, it seems to catch or even surpase the big X-men family, and it doesn't stop.

 

In a part i find it "normal" this price upgrading, because the FF had it's price guide "freezed" for some long years and now the heat is on it's been some years (and don't tell me it's the movie, ). So, what do you think it's due to this "regulastion" inside the inner circle of the big three (the avengers run doesn't even come close, lot less DD or HUlk)?!

 

in a way, i think the price increase is a synonim of the importance/stating of the quality/importance of this title inside the house of ideas title characters by the fan community...not even people want this badly in high grade, but the medium grade seems to fetch a lot of attention/bids. What was priced 25$ just a few some years ago is at 60$ or 70$...

 

possibly the "massive exposition" of Kirby's work/influence/long history in the comics plays a role in this stabilization...?!?! A possible presence of the King's legacy on the base of this form of art?!

A Lee characterization style which is more "talked about/discusse" at an intelectual/cultural level that tends to project in a way this universe (yep, the FF were for itself an universe!!!).

 

Maybe a genre where people fell more revive/interesting (with the adition of the big fantasy wave played on the big screens by the works of H.Potter, LOTR, etc...), because afterall, even if the adventures were in space, these were an explosion of fantasy/creativity, that can be putted up on the same level of the world/atmosphere of the mentioned titles...

 

mostly i fell that even if there will be a slight drop/regulastion in a near future, will by no means diminish the 50% or more of price increase.

Officially it seems the good old wacky family is reconized and respected in full force by the collectors wallets, (always felt that the FF were the "black sheep" of the three brothers family, being the golden boy Spidey and the Rebel ones the X-men...).

 

Maybe the ramifications/richness of the FF history towards marvel inner/basic background is also an aspect to not neglect on this rambling...it's clobering time indeed!!!

 

just some thoughts that crossed by...

 

what do you think?!

 

regards, Pedro.

[Stronguy]

Here's the scoop... the price guides are rigged. They all have this horrible habit increasing prices year after year with absolutely nothing to justify it. If the price guides were based in reality you should be able to buy a chunk of modern craap and get better return rates than a 10 year CD.

 

Probably the best price guide out there is eBay. Just look at all of the stuff that doesn't even get a bid at $1 or less. Look in the guide and it will be $10. On the flip side the truely rare things usually being much more than guide.

[Sharkey]

Here's the scoop... the price guides are rigged. They all have this horrible habit increasing prices year after year with absolutely nothing to justify it. If the price guides were based in reality you should be able to buy a chunk of modern craap and get better return rates than a 10 year CD.

 

Probably the best price guide out there is eBay. Just look at all of the stuff that doesn't even get a bid at $1 or less. Look in the guide and it will be $10. On the flip side the truely rare things usually being much more than guide.

 

Stronguy, you are dead-on target as usual.

 

It's true, the guides keep going up in low and mid grades when the reality is that those books don't usually come CLOSE to selling at guide, unless they are a key book and the buyer doesn't shop around. The low and mid-grade stuff will only bring a fraction of guide on ebay and even at conventions (look around at a show and see how many dealers are selling their lower grades for 50% off, and still have boxes and boxes full of unsold comics). Granted, a comic shop is going to get higher prices from many of its customers but right now reality is not reflected by the major price guides, in my opinion.

 

The problem of course is that if the guides suddenly showed a correction for all those low and mid-grade books, the market would freak out.

 

Therefore the price guides for me have almost become irrelevant. I mostly use ebay searches to see what raw books are selling for, and GPAnalysis for CGC graded books.

 

now, all that said, FF values, especially in higher grades, should come up. Look at the census. There are a lot of FF collectors and not so many ultra-high grade slabbed copies compared to other Marvel titles like ASM, especially in the lower numbers. However, maybe more of those copies will come out of the woodwork with the FF movie coming out, and speculation driving it. Certainly happened with the Amazing Spidey books.

[sfilosa]

There are a lot of FF collectors and not so many ultra-high grade slabbed copies compared to other Marvel titles like ASM, especially in the lower numbers. However, maybe more of those copies will come out of the woodwork with the FF movie coming out, and speculation driving it. Certainly happened with the Amazing Spidey books.

 

The difference between ASM compared to FF is simple:

 

ASM #1 came out the same month as FF #12. If you look at how many copies are in the census of ASM #1 in CGC 9.0 or better it is 20, which is amazingly enough (pun intended) the same amount of copies that FF #12 has in CGC 9.0.

 

I wouldn't expect a lot more new copies of early FF's to be certified because of the movie. There might be more already certified copies being sold as collectors cash in, but the population report doesn't imply that there are lots of copies just waiting to be slabbed.

[Sharkey]

Excellent point. I don't expect a lot to come out. A few may surface.

[Hobgoblin]

Here's the scoop... the price guides are rigged. They all have this horrible habit increasing prices year after year with absolutely nothing to justify it. If the price guides were based in reality you should be able to buy a chunk of modern craap and get better return rates than a 10 year CD.

 

Probably the best price guide out there is eBay. Just look at all of the stuff that doesn't even get a bid at $1 or less. Look in the guide and it will be $10. On the flip side the truely rare things usually being much more than guide.

 

I do agree with this statement, however, I think there is one other factor at play here. Some books in NM condition on eBay do not even sell for a $1 or lower starting bid, I don't believe this means that this book is worth less than $1. Obviously, a book is worth at least what you paid for it if kept in NM condition. A $1.25 cover price book is not going to lose value over the years, even if it doesn't sell for $0.50 on eBay. It just means that the book isn't really in demand right now, because people who want the book probably already have it (especially if it was from the early 90's).

 

Now, I believe that in general, older books in excellent condition are going to sell for more than what they're worth, by a small percentage most of the time. In this case, the book isn't necessarily worth what you paid for it. Same goes for a book that you somehow get a fantastic deal on. My example is my Uncanny 248. I found it on eBay over the summer for about $3.50 (including shipping). It's in VF/NM condition and I'd say is worth more than what I paid (yes, it's the 1st print "pink" cover). Because this book sold for so low of a value doesn't mean that it's worth only $3.50. I believe it just had to do with the fact that most collectors either don't collect moderns (which is obvious on these boards) and most who do probably already have several copies of this book and didn't need another. In my opinion, that doesn't necessarily hurt a books value.

 

The value of a book does depend on demand, and I think it should be that way, but it shouldn't ONLY depend on demand. I think there are other factors involved, i.e. key issues, whether it's in demand or not (i.e. Uncanny 266 or ASM 361).

 

Thats my opinion.

[TLC55555]

Here's the scoop... the price guides are rigged. They all have this horrible habit increasing prices year after year with absolutely nothing to justify it. If the price guides were based in reality you should be able to buy a chunk of modern craap and get better return rates than a 10 year CD.

 

Probably the best price guide out there is eBay. Just look at all of the stuff that doesn't even get a bid at $1 or less. Look in the guide and it will be $10. On the flip side the truely rare things usually being much more than guide.

 

I do agree with this statement, however, I think there is one other factor at play here. Some books in NM condition on eBay do not even sell for a $1 or lower starting bid, I don't believe this means that this book is worth less than $1. Obviously, a book is worth at least what you paid for it if kept in NM condition. A $1.25 cover price book is not going to lose value over the years, even if it doesn't sell for $0.50 on eBay. It just means that the book isn't really in demand right now, because people who want the book probably already have it (especially if it was from the early 90's).

 

Now, I believe that in general, older books in excellent condition are going to sell for more than what they're worth, by a small percentage most of the time. In this case, the book isn't necessarily worth what you paid for it. Same goes for a book that you somehow get a fantastic deal on. My example is my Uncanny 248. I found it on eBay over the summer for about $3.50 (including shipping). It's in VF/NM condition and I'd say is worth more than what I paid (yes, it's the 1st print "pink" cover). Because this book sold for so low of a value doesn't mean that it's worth only $3.50. I believe it just had to do with the fact that most collectors either don't collect moderns (which is obvious on these boards) and most who do probably already have several copies of this book and didn't need another. In my opinion, that doesn't necessarily hurt a books value.

 

The value of a book does depend on demand, and I think it should be that way, but it shouldn't ONLY depend on demand. I think there are other factors involved, i.e. key issues, whether it's in demand or not (i.e. Uncanny 266 or ASM 361).

 

Thats my opinion.

 

I use Ebay as a guide for larger $ items. One thing to consider with lower $ items on Ebay is shipping. There are books that guide for $5.00 that don't get $1.00 bids because no one is interested in paying several dollars for shipping. Those same $5.00 books at a LCS might bring $3.00/$4.00. That being said, a seller (that will combine shipping) probably has an advantage when selling either lots or a large number of books via single auctions.

[Jeffreykli]

Some books in NM condition on eBay do not even sell for a $1 or lower starting bid, I don't believe this means that this book is worth less than $1. Obviously, a book is worth at least what you paid for it if kept in NM condition. A $1.25 cover price book is not going to lose value over the years, even if it doesn't sell for $0.50 on eBay. It just means that the book isn't really in demand right now, because people who want the book probably already have it (especially if it was from the early 90's).

 

I disagree. If a book doesn't sell for $.50 on eBay, that simply means that during the auction, no one who saw the auction was willing to pay $.50 (plus shipping). To me, that means that the book isn't worth $.50 plus shipping. It doesn't matter what the cover price is; it's not worth $.50.

 

One sale or non-sale doesn't establish the market value, but basic economics states that supply and demand will converge at a price to establish the market value. For most books (most, not all) from the early 90s, the current market value is far less than cover price.

[Foolkiller]

ebay is one part of the market, not the whole market.

[sfilosa]

A $1.25 cover price book is not going to lose value over the years, even if it doesn't sell for $0.50 on eBay. It just means that the book isn't really in demand right now, because people who want the book probably already have it (especially if it was from the early 90's).

 

 

Not trying to pick on you, but Sentence #1 and Sentence #2 completely contradict each other.

 

A $1.25 book has ZERO value if there is ZERO demand.

 

How much is yesterday's 25 cent newspaper worth. Practically nothing.

 

PLUS, you are ignoring the second most important factor which is GRADE. A $1.25 book in NM might really sell for $1.25 (if in the right setting), but might be worthless in any less of a grade.

[Aman619]

also on ebay, cheaper items carry an enormous shipping surcharge relative to the winning bid price. Often doubling teh price on the cheapest items.

[Jeffreykli]

ebay is one part of the market, not the whole market.

 

True, but eBay probably has the broadest exposure than other parts of the market. It's all about matching the right seller to the right buyer. if a book on a consignment site doesn't sell, that may mean that the book is overpriced. It may also mean that the price is right, but the right buyer hasn't come along yet.

[Aman619]

Pedro - - as has been pointed out, the Price Guides have existed in a world of their own, increasingly so since the internet and slabbing have goosed the markets. Overstreet has consistently raised prices a skoocg every year in an orderly climb. And th emarket then adjusts the multiples to the price, rather than the other way around (except when advantageous that is lik eafter a BIG Overstreey Bump UP!)

 

So since the Guides operate only loosely connected to the market prices, theres only so much to be concluded fron detailed anaylysis of Guide increase charts...

 

As for FFs relative to other Marvel titles? Well, starting with the Spidey movie, Spidies jumped skyhigh. Then other titles followed, and now FFs (and I agree, it always lagged Spidey and other books) are seeing some strong movement up. Lets wait and see whats going on in November thi syear if the prices will hold or weaken...

[Hobgoblin]

A $1.25 cover price book is not going to lose value over the years, even if it doesn't sell for $0.50 on eBay. It just means that the book isn't really in demand right now, because people who want the book probably already have it (especially if it was from the early 90's).

 

 

Not trying to pick on you, but Sentence #1 and Sentence #2 completely contradict each other.

 

A $1.25 book has ZERO value if there is ZERO demand.

 

How much is yesterday's 25 cent newspaper worth. Practically nothing.

 

PLUS, you are ignoring the second most important factor which is GRADE. A $1.25 book in NM might really sell for $1.25 (if in the right setting), but might be worthless in any less of a grade.

 

I did not contradict myself. I said that demand matters, but it shouldn't be the only factor. a $1.25 comic is worth $1.25 in NM condition whether it has demand or not. It's not going to depreciate in value due to lack of demand, only due to condition.

 

I liked the point made about cheap books on eBay with shipping. If you are trying to sell a $1.25 cover price book that really isn't in high demand for a starting bid of 1 cent, the buyer still has to pay over $2.00 for shipping. so they'd end up paying more than cover price for the book, which wouldn't be worth it.

 

And about the grades. I was only taking into account high grades, 9.0 to 9.4. I wasn't concerned with discussing how lower grades would affect it, cause that's just obvious.

[Earl Davis]

I disagree with the 'worthless' of moderns to some extent. I am a collector of moderns and trying to fill FULL runs of many titles for the last 5 years is really hard unless you are prepared to pay over cover for individual issues within the run. For example if anyone can point me towards large quantities of Scooby-Doo, Fables, 100 Bullets, Legion Lost, Y The Lat Man etc at under cover (inc Shipping) for example it would be greatly appreciated.

 

Take even a title like Batman. Whilst 90’s issues can be had a bargain prices, issues after about 570 are harder to find cheap. Yes, you can find individual issues at under cover on e-bay but then you have to pay for the shipping on the single book. If you go to a larger on-line retailer where you can pick up say 10 issues you need in one go and save on shipping but you would be paying over $3 an issue for many issues.

 

A good example is Action #775. I needed this about 12 months ago as the last issue for an unbroken 400 issue run and looked on 10 online sites and e-bay and could not find a copy for under $10 when shipping was taken into consideration.

 

It’s one of those things. You always tend to see bargains all over the place but when you want a particular single issue from a run you’r going to have to pay for it.

 

Would be happy to be proven wrong as I still have a few hundred gaps to fill from 1998-2003 issues but sets like Beautiful Stories for Ugly Children, Scooby-Doo, Cartoon Network etc are really hard to complete at under cover. When the majority of issues now sell below 20,000 copies an issue mainly to pre-order customers there’s not much surplus / overstock out there on moderns. Even more popular Super-hero stuff like early run Amazing Spider-man Vol 2 is getting harder to find at cover or less.

 

 

Regards Earl.

[jimm94]

Demand is everything. If there is no demand for a book, it has no value (other than its' entertainment value of course).

 

And if you find someone who wants to buy a book, there's no guarantee that they will pay the cover price or higher. End of story.

 

There are millions of copies of comics out there from the early to mid 90's that are in NM+ or better condition that you can't even sell for a quarter or even a dime because no one wants them.

[sfilosa]

Demand is everything. If there is no demand for a book, it has no value (other than its' entertainment value of course).

 

And if you find someone who wants to buy a book, there's no guarantee that they will pay the cover price or higher. End of story.

 

There are millions of copies of comics out there from the early to mid 90's that are in NM+ or better condition that you can't even sell for a quarter or even a dime because no one wants them.

 

 

No one should EVER BELIEVE that anything that is collected can't go BELOW it's original PRICE.

 

With that logic, that means that a $3.95 cover price book with ZERO DEMAND has to be worth more than a $1.25 cover price book with ZERO DEMAND.

 

[Jeffreykli]

Earl,

 

I agree with you for books post-1998. That's why I said early 90s as the books worth less than cover price. That's when I stopped collecting new books, and am now stuck with them hoping for $.25 each at conventions.

 

It may be the case that demand for these books increases in the future (similar to the 70s horror books), at which time the value of those books will likewise increase. But, for now, the market value of these books are below cover price.

[FFB]

A $1.25 cover price book is not going to lose value over the years, even if it doesn't sell for $0.50 on eBay. It just means that the book isn't really in demand right now, because people who want the book probably already have it (especially if it was from the early 90's).

 

 

Not trying to pick on you, but Sentence #1 and Sentence #2 completely contradict each other.

 

A $1.25 book has ZERO value if there is ZERO demand.

 

How much is yesterday's 25 cent newspaper worth. Practically nothing.

 

PLUS, you are ignoring the second most important factor which is GRADE. A $1.25 book in NM might really sell for $1.25 (if in the right setting), but might be worthless in any less of a grade.

 

I did not contradict myself. I said that demand matters, but it shouldn't be the only factor. a $1.25 comic is worth $1.25 in NM condition whether it has demand or not. It's not going to depreciate in value due to lack of demand, only due to condition.

 

If that's true, then why can you buy boxes and boxes of those books in NM uncirculated condition from Joe Koch for a nickel per book?

[Hobgoblin]

Sometimes I think you guys live on another planet. I'm sorry but this is rubbish. All of my $1.00 books in NM condition are still worth $1.00 in my mind. I am QUITE aware that I would never be able to get more than 10 or 20 cents per book if I sold them all, but that doesn't mean the value is 10 cents. Demand ISN'T everything. You high and mighty, high-grade only, modern-haters only think it is.

 

In many other types of collecting hobbies, demand doesn't set the value. So why are comics so different? Rubbish I tell you.