some observations re; ComicCollectors.net

[burntboy]

i was taken to task yesterday (politely) by Mushroom and Esquire over my statements regarding grading issues on the CC.net site, so i'd like to take a moment to make some researched observations;

 

1. i exaggerated and said that the site always self graded their books as good as or better than the CGC given grades. (and it was correctly pointed out that it not absolutely true).

 

in fact, if you look at the 5 non-GA auction sites (Marvel SA, Spidey's, DC SA, Strange Adventures and Mystery in Space - hey, i'm a SA guy), you can find the following:131 total CGC graded books for sale. of the 131 CC.net agrees with the CGC grade 47% of the time. they believe that the books were undergraded 47% of the time. and they believe that the books were overgraded 5% of the time.

 

that means wherever they disagreed with the CGC grade, 10% (7 books) were perceived to be overgraded and 90% (62 books) were perceived to be undergraded. anyone who doesn't see that pattern is wearing blinders!! i guess they wholeheartedly believe that CGC grades WAY TOO strictly. (that's not the sense i've gotten from the members of this forum over the past year). and since the owner is a known CGC basher, i doubt that he had them slabbed and is probably grading them in-the-slab (as suggested by FFB and Zeman).

 

2. in the MIS auction they have 33 NON-certified books listed in BOLD RED as being the HIGHEST GRADED COPY. higher than what??? higher than the highest certified copy?? but in some instances they state that there are NO certified copies. so their book is higher than what???

 

it appears that they are determining that their personal grading is sufficient to lay claim to the title of highest graded. (i mean there are some very lovely books in these auctions, but give me a break.........)

 

3. this is perhaps the topper. they claim that their self-graded copy of the white mountain MIS #1 is a 9.2 (despite the fact that it's sitting in a CGC slab with an 8.5 grade on it!!!!!) and even though there is a certified 9.0 out there, they lay claim once again to the highest graded copy. see the link;

 

http://www.comiccollectors.net/auction_detail.php?issue_id=2135&return_id=3&page=1

 

and then they take that book (of which 2 copies in CGC 8.5 have averaged a $2000 sale price over the past few years) and place a sale price of $6600 on it.

 

is it just me???? i mean it's their site and their business, but i think something this odd deserves some discussing................

[Foolkiller]

Harry:

 

Your being taken to task was in my mind "a personal defense" of Marnin rather than anything positive about his grading skills etc.

 

Some people have had good experience with Marnin, others have not. I think he's got a few instances of overgrading that I've seen personally, and I think the reason for his animosity towards CGC is partially based upon the fact they've made his grading look a little shotty on high grades and partially made him irrelevant in the marketplace. I no longer think of Marnin as a "power player" in the market anymore.

 

I would take the defense of Marnin with a grain of salt because I think it's motivated by a small bias. But I have the same thing with dealers I like so it's hard for me to be critical.

 

Based on the numbers, and his prices, I'd never deal with Marnin in the current marketplace. I think there's a lot of people who would support your observations.

[Darthdiesel]

I think there's a lot of people who would support your observations.

 

[Aman619]

I stroll by there to look at teh pretty books and sometimes astonishing prices (similar to PGC and PCEI ) but never find anything worth even a nibble...

[burntboy]

I stroll by there to look at teh pretty books and sometimes astonishing prices (similar to PGC and PCEI ) but never find anything worth even a nibble...

 

the "Auction" portion of the website is gorgeous. and the selection of books (hard to find HG SA DC's) is top-notch.

 

they can charge what they want, of course, and call their books by any names they choose, but this "Highest Graded Copy" stuff just has me bemused.........

 

personally grading books consistently higher than CGC isn't a crime, but doing so and then pricing at the higher claimed grade and then proclaiming the book to be the best takes Grande Cajones...........IMHO.......

[drbanner]

i guess they wholeheartedly believe that CGC grades WAY TOO strictly. (that's not the sense i've gotten from the members of this forum over the past year).

 

I think the only reason you're getting this sense is that the outliers get a lot of scrutiny here, but more importantly, there are over half a million CGC-graded books in circulation. If every book Metro, or Motor City, or Showcase NE ever sold carried their grade as it was bought/sold/traded over time, you'd probably hear a lot of scrutiny about their grading as well.

 

I would say 95% of the books advertised for sale at conventions don't have a grade on them, and if you ask the dealer he'll look it at and say "...it's about a NM...". So the reason CGC's grades get critiqued, is simply that CGC books have a grade on 'em that doesn't change when it's bought/sold. I've bought and returned what I felt were overgraded books from all the big dealers, and while I don't agree with every CGC grade, they are definitely among the strictest graders in the business but since grading is subjective, they have their share of outliers just like all the big dealers do.

[burntboy]

i guess they wholeheartedly believe that CGC grades WAY TOO strictly. (that's not the sense i've gotten from the members of this forum over the past year).

 

I think the only reason you're getting this sense is that the outliers get a lot of scrutiny here, but more importantly, there are over half a million CGC-graded books in circulation. If every book Metro, or Motor City, or Showcase NE ever sold carried their grade as it was bought/sold/traded over time, you'd probably hear a lot of scrutiny about their grading as well.

 

I would say 95% of the books advertised for sale at conventions don't have a grade on them, and if you ask the dealer he'll look it at and say "...it's about a NM...". So the reason CGC's grades get critiqued, is simply that CGC books have a grade on 'em that doesn't change when it's bought/sold. I've bought and returned what I felt were overgraded books from all the big dealers, and while I don't agree with every CGC grade, they are definitely among the strictest graders in the business but since grading is subjective, they have their share of outliers just like all the big dealers do.

 

i hear ya.........and don't disgree with the outlier thoughts.

 

what i'm having trouble with is if i used a 100point scale (which looks like what CC.net is doing), it would be VERY common for my grades to disagree with CGC.

however' if i then stood back and realized that in 90% of the instances where we disagreed, my grade was HIGHER, i might start to question myself........this is not about outliers but about overall grading differences being overwhelmingly slanted in one direction...............

 

and forgetting about grading differences for the moment - what do you think about calling your books the highest graded when there's nothing really to compare to??

 

or what about calling your book the highest graded (9.2) when it's sitting in a CGC 8.5 slab???(and there's a CGC 9.0 out there???)

[Foolkiller]

it's shady marketing.

[drbanner]

however' if i then stood back and realized that in 90% of the instances where we disagreed, my grade was HIGHER, i might start to question myself........this is not about outliers but about overall grading differences being overwhelmingly slanted in one direction...............

 

and forgetting about grading differences for the moment - what do you think about calling your books the highest graded when there's nothing really to compare to??

 

or what about calling your book the highest graded (9.2) when it's sitting in a CGC 8.5 slab???(and there's a CGC 9.0 out there???)

 

Well, basically you've laid it out pretty dang well - CGC is on average a stricter grader than Marnin is! And he should definitely not be labelling his books as "highest graded" in either scenario (no books on the census, or higher graded books on the census). This all makes it pretty clear about his vendetta, his rumor-mongering that CGC has already been pressing books in-house for select customers, etc.,.

 

The outliers comment was in response to your perception that most people on here don't think of CGC as strict graders, but I'm pretty sure everyone thinks they're plenty strict, but sometimes inconsistent.

[DKB]

I stroll by there to look at teh pretty books and sometimes astonishing prices (similar to PGC and PCEI ) but never find anything worth even a nibble...

 

There are a few things there, that when I have the funds, I might toss a 75%-80% offer at. Books that have been up there for ages. Having never dealt with this person before, I have no idea how that will be received.

[Ze-man]

3. this is perhaps the topper. they claim that their self-graded copy of the white mountain MIS #1 is a 9.2 (despite the fact that it's sitting in a CGC slab with an 8.5 grade on it!!!!!) and even though there is a certified 9.0 out there, they lay claim once again to the highest graded copy.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------is it just me???? i mean it's their site and their business, but i think something this odd deserves some discussing................

 

 

Harry, Dont worry about defending your opinions about CC.net. You did not exaggerate that much when you brought up your observations about CC.net -vs- CGC grading.

 

I also think you summed it up quite well.. it IS their site, business, and grading assesment..

They can describe a comic as they see fit. All it takes is one sucker..to click the BIN and they would make $6,600 instead of around $2k for that MIS #1. Being a White Mountain book would certainly garner a higher price for some buyers. But for them to ask multiples in price over what known similarly graded /slabbed copies went for........ is utter BUNK.

To call the book The Highest Graded Copy is utter... BUNK, and borders on being LIBELOUS?

 

If they want to resub the book, press it, sit on it.. it.. whatever.. and see if it comes back a higher grade.. then take a gamble and resub it.. it is an old label after all..

For them to say it is anything other then what is on the CGC label is an opinion that I suppose they are free to express.

Crack it open.. sell it RAW with a different grade, but for gods sake... to say it is HIGHEST GRADED COPY and something other then what CGC gave it, and ask for TOP CENSUS GRADE premium $$... is BUNK.

 

But hey.. even if it only works 1 outa 50 times.. and they sell a book for 5x guide , claiming it to be something it really is not... then blame the insufficiently_thoughtful_person buyer .. not them.

Heck.. pretty soon their whole site might soon spout every.. HIGHEST GRADED COPY ...ever NOT graded by CGC,even though it is in a CGC slab.

 

What crock... nice legwork Harry.. interesting stuff.

 

Ze-

[sfilosa]

Harry:

 

You (nor anyone else) needs to defend their position regarding Marnin (ComicCollectors.net).

 

QUICK POINTS:

 

1) There is no way to ACCURATELY GRADE a book that has been CGC'd, therefore if he had ANY COMMON SENSE, he WOULDN'T put a CC grade by those books. Of course, that's assuming that he grades THE WHOLE BOOK and not just the COVER and doesn't IGNORE NON-COLOR BREAKING CREASES. Can you see a pattern here that would lead to OVERGRADING most of the time?

 

2) He has CHOICE books from many of the significant PEDIGREE COLLECTIONS. Therefore, while I think his prices are SKY HIGH, his prices on those books reflect the same pricing structure as say METRO puts on certain pedigrees (Spokane as an example). Basically, they want twice as much (or more) for the same CGC graded book (in the same grade), if it came from a pedigree collection (especially if they were one of the original purchasers).

 

3) Regarding the HIGHEST GRADE / CERTIFIED COPY claim, I THROW that out on all sites. Simply because what would be better:

A) Highest graded copy - twenty others in same grade

B) Second highest graded copy - one higher, and only one in this grade

 

B is clearly the more rare book, but just doesn't have the same ring.

 

4) I think the major problem with Marnin (and several other non-adaptable dealers) is simply that CGC has taken away any ADVANTAGE they use to have. Grading is actually not an essential skill anymore if you are willing to just buy CGC graded books. And since most of what he deals / dealt in would be books that should be, or will be eventually CGC graded, he has lost his competitive advantage (which would be, separating the chaff from the wheat and knowing that a true NM book is worth a whole lot more than just a VF/NM to the right collectors).

 

Just my thoughts.

[Sharkey]

I've never bought anything from him. But I've gone to his site and see some very nice looking pre-hero books. In my opinion, several of the scans appear to show the book being overgraded. He calls it a VF 8.0. Looks like a 7.0 to 7.5 to me. But he has a price on it that surpasses the current going rate for a CGC 8.0. So there ain't no way in h-e-doublehockeysticks I'm going to pay that for the book.

 

IMHO, I think he has made himself irrelevant in the marketplace because of how he has positioned himself.

 

I may offer him a price, but if he's asking $800 for a book that I'd pay maybe $500 for IF is a really nice slabbed copy, then I doubt he's coming down 40% on the book.

 

And yeah, for him to slap a 9.0 on a book and then say it's the highest graded copy because the highest in CGC census is 8.5 is laughable, ridiculous, and makes him look like a huge ego-inflamed King of BS.

 

I hope to see him at a show because it would be interesting to deal with him face to face. I don't like doing first time deals over the internet, especially when trying to negotiate prices down on higher end books. He may be a very reasonable, nice guy to deal with. In fact, I hope that's the case. From his web site, pricing philosophy, and rants about CGC, I am not sure that will be the case.

[rob_react]

To call the book The Highest Graded Copy is utter... BUNK, and borders on being LIBELOUS?

 

While I'm not prepared to say what it is, I can say one thing- it's not libelous.

 

Some OTHER things he says might potentially be characterized that way.

[burntboy]

oh well, looks like this thread has run it's course early. thought there'd be more comments on the "Highest Graded Copy" aspect of the thread.

 

it would be very interesting for example, if my former FF #11 were to show up on this site with a CC.net grade of 9.5 - "HIGHEST GRADED COPY" and a sale price of $14K -$15K................

[sfilosa]

Almost everyone doing the Highest Graded Copy (though Marnin does it different). The real problem I have, is it is only at the TIME OF LISTING. So if five other copies get graded higher later on, it's still going to say, Highest Graded Copy.

[FFB]

oh well, looks like this thread has run it's course early. thought there'd be more comments on the "Highest Graded Copy" aspect of the thread.

 

it would be very interesting for example, if my former FF #11 were to show up on this site with a CC.net grade of 9.5 - "HIGHEST GRADED COPY" and a sale price of $14K -$15K................

 

Fat chance. I nearly myself when you got $10K for it.

[uclapeterg]

oh well, looks like this thread has run it's course early. thought there'd be more comments on the "Highest Graded Copy" aspect of the thread.

 

it would be very interesting for example, if my former FF #11 were to show up on this site with a CC.net grade of 9.5 - "HIGHEST GRADED COPY" and a sale price of $14K -$15K................

 

Fat chance. I nearly myself when you got $10K for it.

 

Is the lawyer just a tad jealous and bitter?

[FFB]

oh well, looks like this thread has run it's course early. thought there'd be more comments on the "Highest Graded Copy" aspect of the thread.

 

it would be very interesting for example, if my former FF #11 were to show up on this site with a CC.net grade of 9.5 - "HIGHEST GRADED COPY" and a sale price of $14K -$15K................

 

Fat chance. I nearly myself when you got $10K for it.

 

Is the lawyer just a tad jealous and bitter?

 

No, but you sound a tad bitter. What's the problem, Pete?

 

I'm thrilled that Harry got $10K for it. He deserved it for keeping the book in such nice shape for all those years. But I don't think for a second that Marnin would get $14K for it just by calling it a 9.5.

[tth2]

Harry, thanks for doing the legwork, which provides interesting empirical evidence. I think Marnin's railing against CGC's "inconsistent" grading would hold a lot more water if CGC consistently overgraded compared to his grading (e.g., CGC gives a book a 9.6 that Marnin grades as a 9.4), in which case he could at least be credibly saying that they're diluting the standards of this hobby. Instead, seeing the number of comics that he has apparently undergraded compared to CGC's standards just makes it look like a case of sour grapes.

 

For what it's worth, I've had 2 positive experiences with Marnin's grading and 1 not so positive experience.