Bigger SA Key: Flash 105 or Justice League of America 1?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Martin awoke from his Goodmansleep and summoned The Mighty Lee to his throne room.

 

"Donenfeld has sent forth a league of storied warriors to capture the hallowed realm of newsstands. I shall not idly wait for their success to pry the sacred dime from the hands of babes. 'Tis my wish supreme that you forge a fantastic team ready for most valiant battle. I have spoken!"

 

"Let this be my vow, Uncle. You shall have your team, and when the glorious battle is joined, the bards will forever sing of the greatness of this most silvered age!"

 

 

Much better than the other stuff going on.

 

[BarryAllen]

Martin awoke from his Goodmansleep and summoned The Mighty Lee to his throne room.

 

"Donenfeld has sent forth a league of storied warriors to capture the hallowed realm of newsstands. I shall not idly wait for their success to pry the sacred dime from the hands of babes. 'Tis my wish supreme that you forge a fantastic team ready for most valiant battle. I have spoken!"

 

"Let this be my vow, Uncle. You shall have your team, and when the glorious battle is joined, the bards will forever sing of the greatness of this most silvered age!"

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Link 4: "After about 20 years on the job, I said to my wife, "I don't think I'm getting anywhere. I think I'd like to quit." She gave me the best piece of advice in the world. She said, "Why not write one book the way you'd like to, instead of the way Martin wants you to? Get it out of your system. The worst thing that will happen is he'll fire you -- but you want to quit anyway." At the time, DC Comics had a book called The Justice League, about a group of superheroes, that was selling very well. So in 1961 we did The Fantastic Four. I tried to make the characters different in the sense that they had real emotions and problems. And it caught on. After that, Martin asked me to come up with some other superheroes." - Stan Lee

"All of the characters at Marvel were my ideas" - Stan Lee

 

Interestingly, this reminds me of a conversation that was had here many years ago, the details of which are now fuzzy, but which dealt with this exact quote. In that conversation, the same bad arguments were being made, that Stan Lee created FF based on Justice League.

 

In this quote, Stan makes no acknowledgement of the idea from Goodman, and instead presents the idea as if it came from himself.

 

The obvious question, of course, is how did Stan Lee, who was busy working on the comic books he was writing, possibly know that Justice League was "selling well" when, by the time FF #1 was in production, only a handful of issues had been released?

 

 

The more that is brought to light, the more unlikely the claims become, and the more likely this idea of "Good selling Justice League" is a retcon, a "backmembrance", inserting situations into the past that never happened, based on subsequent impressions and ideas.

 

Stan continues to contradict himself as he has soooo many times, but at least he's still trying to minimize Kirby, although this time directly in favour of Stan Lee rather than Marvel.

 

It's tough to give these quotes much credence. If the story was constantly changing, how does anyone rely on it?

[RockMyAmadeus]

To everyone else: my apologies for contributing to the unnecessary sideshow.

 

Hope springs eternal, and from my vantage point, if you approach an issue from as many different angles as possible, something might be discovered in a discussion that knocks that last small block of disagreement out. Sure, discussions can become passionate, but you never know when that one point that makes all the difference, like a diamond hidden amongst the coal, is discovered.

 

That's my motivation.

 

I recognize that that is a futile effort in some cases, even if I don't believe that is ever a permanent condition. I apologize for not having the willingness to acknowledge that. I apologize for giving in, in whatever degree, to the provocation.

 

I should know better. My apologies.

 

 

So sanctimonious even in your "apology" to the boards for your "part" in any of this. You couldn't just say "I''m sorry I wasted bandwidth on a pointless argument" or something to that extent. You have to create this elaborate display ordained with lofty language and the tiniest amount of veiled humility.

 

You are truly unbelievable.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way. The only thing I can suggest is that you ignore me. Continuing to insult and provoke me isn't going to change anything. I'm not going to insult and provoke you in return.

 

 

 

 

I am sure you are really broken up about it inside.

 

My goal has been to call out your particular brand of nonesense. You have chosen how and if you would respond. Feel free to ignore me as well, but I suspect, you won't be able to. Your need "educate" outweighs any normal other human reaction.

 

:shrug:

 

Regardless of your opinions about me, regardless of the intensity and frequency of the insults and provocation coming from you, I shouldn't have lost my cool and stated that you were completely mad. I apologize to you for that.

 

I shouldn't have lost my cool, no matter how temporarily, no matter what the provocation, and even though your opinions about me are almost entirely from your own imagination, mixed with a bit of truth (for that is the most effective way to misrepresent anything), the fact is, I could have, and should have, kept it completely professional from my end of things.

 

I mean you no ill will, rfoiii, and though I am human and can get angry like everyone else, I bear no malice towards you. I don't apologize for what I have said, and stand by it...but I could have kept it professional and courteous.

 

[ttfitz]

YMMV, but if you find the Lee story more plausible then to me that demonstrates a willingness to disregard the evidence from the timeline and sales figures (which are researched facts, not opinions) to put all your stock in a single statement from Lee that has been called into question by sworn testimony from a well-known historian of comics. And while Evanier did not call Lee a liar, his statement does take Lee's "memory" that much further away from being a piece of solid and eyewitness testimony (which it never was to begin with).

 

You and I differ on the meaning of Evanier's full statement on the matter, but that's fine.

 

As for the "evidence from the timeline and sales figures", I don't disregard them, I just don't find them persuasive. On the timeline, it is my understanding that even RMA concedes that there is enough time for someone in-the-know to decide how well a book is selling,

 

Based on three issues...? You can make this conclusion based on three issues...? And then that hypothetical "person in the know" is going to say "hey, this new title, JLA, is selling about on par with some of our other titles, like Flash, Blackhawk, and others...it's only three issues in, but those are pretty good"...and then Goodman is going to, in turn, tell Stan "Hey, there's a new title that's got fairly moderate sales at National...it's only three issues in, but hey, it looks good so far...we should do a superhero team!"...?

 

Who decides how well a book is selling based on three issues...?

 

And who then goes and tells an unrelated party about it, when we discover later that those sales were good, but not stellar?

 

What motive does this unnamed "in the know" person have to go tell a competitor, "hey, by the way...we're three issues in to this new series, and sales are decent" which would then inspire that person to go tell his employee "hey, there's this book that has moderate sales! Let's copy that!"

 

You think that is reasonable?

 

You almost make me wonder if you have real conversations with real people; the kind of conversations where people talk about things that are happening with them, talk about common interests both personal and professional, sometimes exaggerate about their accomplishments, poke gentle fun at their friend about some aspect of their lives, talk about how good (well?) - or bad - things are at work; you know, conversations. To answer your question, no, I don't think that is reasonable, since people don't really talk like that.

 

As for the rest, I've shared my opinion, and don't really have anything to add, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I won't offer you the last word, because I AM like you in one respect, there's always the possibility that you'd say something I just couldn't resist responding to.

 

This went a bit too far, and I apologize for that. I just couldn't believe that such a ridiculous characterization would be put forth as to how such a conversation must go.

 

A "bit"...?

 

Do you understand sarcasm?

 

I think maybe Lazyboy has hit the nail on the head: you may not be able to tell when people are being sarcastic to make a point.

 

If that is the case, then I shall have to remember to always be literal with you, or you will come to strange conclusions such as the one above, where you completely missed the sarcasm that illustrated the point....because those ridiculous conversations were ridiculous to illustrate the point.

 

As usual, you don't get the point, but that's okay.

 

I understand that you believe that. Belief, however, doesn't necessarily equate to truth.

 

A sentiment that you might want to take to heart.

 

:sigh: I don't know why I let myself be dragged into this stuff, but here goes - yes, I understand sarcasm. But sarcasm that completely misses reality doesn't accomplish anything. Your questions that your sarcasm tries to address, as best I can tell, are:

 

Why would the DC/ID guy tell Goodman that JLA was doing so well, when it was "only" selling twice as many copies as Marvel's best selling book at the time? Let me let you in on a little tidbit - when real people have real conversations, sometimes, they exaggerate. Sometimes they lie. Sometimes they misinterpret what the other person says - or assumes the other person must be lying, and that book that he said is only doing "okay" is really doing great for them. Strangely enough, most conversations don't just deal with "facts". And it was THIS lack of understanding of reality, not the use of sarcasm or my taking things literally, that prompted my response.

 

Second question you seem to have is, why would Goodman want to copy JLA rather than better selling books like Lois Lane? I don't know, why do I like chocolate ice cream instead of Rocky Road or pistachio? Maybe Goodman didn't like Lois Lane, or romance comics (although I'm not sure you have ever read Lois Lane, because it was about as much a romance book as I Love Lucy was a romance tv show); maybe he didn't think he could pull off selling a "superhero's girl friend" book without actually having a superhero that was selling nearly a million copies a month; maybe he had already looked at the established titles and didn't see anything he thought they could copy, but a new book just might be what he was looking for; maybe a superhero team was something that caught his interest; once again, maybe he was misled or misunderstood how well the JLA title was doing relative to others (and by your own reasoning, had no way of knowing what the truth might be). I don't know, and neither do you. This line of reasoning of yours, once again, ignores the human element of things, the fact that people don't always do what seems from the "facts" to be the logical course of action.

[Comicopolis]

I blame Stan Lee for this thread.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

I understand that you believe that. Belief, however, doesn't necessarily equate to truth.

 

A sentiment that you might want to take to heart.

 

Subtle, you are not.

 

:sigh: I don't know why I let myself be dragged into this stuff,

 

No need to force yourself. Continuing to call into question each other's basic capacity to understand, reason, and communicate serves no good purpose. So, I shall refrain from further interaction with you on this matter.

 

Take care.

[Sam I am]

I blame Stan Lee for this thread.

 

At this point, Stan may claim he started the thread.

[markseifert]

Why would the DC/ID guy tell Goodman that JLA was doing so well, when it was "only" selling twice as many copies as Marvel's best selling book at the time? Let me let you in on a little tidbit - when real people have real conversations, sometimes, they exaggerate. Sometimes they lie.

 

Really good and important point.

 

Setting aside any issues of timing and whether or where this conversation did take place, what Goodman thought about this issue... what exactly he was told, how he perceived what he was being told, and etc is a big elephant in the room.

 

I've always sort of realized this in the back of my mind, but this thread made me go look at it again... there is virtually nothing of substance on the record from Goodman from the 1960s on, in terms of interviews or quotes, etc. Probably some stuff out there related to the Marvel sale, the battle over the Captain Marvel name, and Simon's first lawsuit, but I'd need to dig further.

 

That's particularly curious because the family was reportedly furious with Marvel's treatment of Chip Goodman after the sale, leading to the creation of Atlas/Seaboard, and that ought to have produced some press with Martin's involvement. Maybe it's out there and I haven't seen it yet.

 

Goodman passed in '92 and reportedly had alzheimer's. I've never seen this explicitly stated, but since the battle over artwork returns reached a fever pitch by the mid-1980s (and had been going on for some years prior), and he'd have been able to speak directly to very many aspects of that, one presumes he was not in any condition to do so.

 

 

[ttfitz]

Why would the DC/ID guy tell Goodman that JLA was doing so well, when it was "only" selling twice as many copies as Marvel's best selling book at the time? Let me let you in on a little tidbit - when real people have real conversations, sometimes, they exaggerate. Sometimes they lie.

 

Really good and important point.

 

This isn't sarcasm, is it? I've been accused of not recognizing it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Really good and important point.

 

Setting aside any issues of timing and whether or where this conversation did take place, what Goodman thought about this issue... what exactly he was told, how he perceived what he was being told, and etc is a big elephant in the room.

 

If such a conversation took place, which is a very large if, there's no way to know what Goodman thought, because, as you note, there's very little from Goodman on the record.

 

It's just speculation built on speculation, for conversations that are purported to have happened 50+ years ago, involving people who are mostly gone, and some of which is directly contradicted by Lee ("Martin told me JLA was doing well, let's do a superhero team" vs "I came up with the idea based on JLA, and then later Martin told me to do more superheroes" vs. "All the ideas at Marvel were mine.")

 

I don't think there's any reason, at this point, barring further evidence, to believe any such conversations took place, much less know the details of such conversations.

 

[markseifert]

 

This isn't sarcasm, is it? I've been accused of not recognizing it.

 

Heh. Nope, no sarcasm.

 

I was looking at some very-early accounts from a number of parties involved last night, and it also struck me how early on the battle lines were being drawn around legal lines.

 

This is not directly on point, but here's Kirby talking about those earliest days, on video so you can see the nuance, in 1985:

 

 

Now... I am the biggest Kirby fan in the world, but that is obviously a very, very one-sided viewpoint on those events (and giving context, this is pretty much at the height of the mid-80s artwork and wfh/rights issues were exploding).

 

Without meaning to rehash ground we've already covered here, it's worth noting that many of the legal battles that we've seen in comics over the past 40+ years were enabled in large part by the Copyright Act of 1976. And beyond a shadow of a doubt, a very large portion of the public statements we've seen since that time, from any individual involved, have been couched in language meant to support or refute claims enabled by that Act.

 

 

[jimjum12]

I would rather have JLA 1 more than Flash 105..... but I don't really see either as being all that historically significant..... both are basically just follow through books. The real debate would be Showcase 4 versus BB 28...... which I would give a slight edge to SC 4 ......although, once again, I'd rather have a BB 28 GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[MusterMark]

I would rather have JLA 1 more than Flash 105..... but I don't really see either as being all that historically significant..... both are basically just follow through books. The real debate would be Showcase 4 versus BB 28...... which I would give a slight edge to SC 4 ......although, once again, I'd rather have a BB 28 GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I agree with all the bold type.

(thumbs u

[kimik]

If all B&B #28 does is closes to only a 5-10% difference in price per grade relative to SC #4 I will be happy.

[Kevin76]

SC 4 gets the slight edge since it started the silver age and is super tough to find in HG and the price even as a .5 is just getting crazy. Just not enough to meet up with demand.

[ttfitz]

 

This isn't sarcasm, is it? I've been accused of not recognizing it.

 

Heh. Nope, no sarcasm.

 

I was looking at some very-early accounts from a number of parties involved last night, and it also struck me how early on the battle lines were being drawn around legal lines.

 

This is not directly on point, but here's Kirby talking about those earliest days, on video so you can see the nuance, in 1985:

 

 

Now... I am the biggest Kirby fan in the world, but that is obviously a very, very one-sided viewpoint on those events (and giving context, this is pretty much at the height of the mid-80s artwork and wfh/rights issues were exploding).

 

 

Yeah, I think the interview he did with Groth in 1990 was the peak of that sort of thing, where he said things such as, "Stan Lee and I never collaborated on anything! I’ve never seen Stan Lee write anything. I used to write the stories just like I always did." and "Stan Lee is essentially an office worker, OK?" and the topper, "I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all."

 

It occurred to me with the golf story (I even ran across a different version from Bob Rozakis that it was Charlie Gaines at a poker game) that none of the versions of Goodman getting that inside info have to be true. Stan's statement in 1974 (pre-Copyright Act of 1976, to tie into your comment) was, "Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'" For all we know, Martin happened to notice a bunch of kids buying the Justice League title, and thought, "Hey, we could do a superhero team book." The golf game part could have just been Stan assuming that Martin had gotten such info, and mixed up who it was that Martin hung around with.

 

Or maybe not. One thing I agree with RMA about, we can't really know, for certain, whether it happened or not. For me, while I know Stan could take more credit than he should, and misremember things, there seems little point in making the JLA story up (actually giving away credit, against type), so the timelines and sales data just don't present a compelling argument against it. Others may differ, and as I said a few times before, that's okay.

[ttfitz]

I would rather have JLA 1 more than Flash 105..... but I don't really see either as being all that historically significant..... both are basically just follow through books. The real debate would be Showcase 4 versus BB 28...... which I would give a slight edge to SC 4 ......although, once again, I'd rather have a BB 28 GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I don't think Showcase #4 or Brave and the Bold #28 are important in the least, and should really drop in price - nobody really wants those books, right?

 

(And I'm with you, jimbo, I'd rather have a B&B 28)

[bronze johnny]

I would rather have JLA 1 more than Flash 105..... but I don't really see either as being all that historically significant..... both are basically just follow through books. The real debate would be Showcase 4 versus BB 28...... which I would give a slight edge to SC 4 ......although, once again, I'd rather have a BB 28 GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Flash 105 is more than a follow up book. Yes, SC 4 and BB 28 are bigger books but DC had more than 2 SA keys. Following this line of thinking can lead us to just making comparisons between Action Comics 1 and Tec 27 and we can end it there. The DC SA is a hell of a lot more than SC 4 and BB 28.

 

And the idea that one DC key is more significant than another since it may have influenced the developed the first Marvel creation doesn't address the impact it had on the DC Silver Age.

 

Flash 105 and JLA 1 are both great keys and have significant roles in DC's SA that are worth discussing and comparing.

 

 

[jimjum12]

I would rather have JLA 1 more than Flash 105..... but I don't really see either as being all that historically significant..... both are basically just follow through books. The real debate would be Showcase 4 versus BB 28...... which I would give a slight edge to SC 4 ......although, once again, I'd rather have a BB 28 GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Flash 105 is more than a follow up book. Yes, SC 4 and BB 28 are bigger books but DC had more than 2 SA keys. Following this line of thinking can lead us to just making comparisons between Action Comics 1 and Tec 27 and we can end it there. The DC SA is a hell of a lot more than SC 4 and BB 28.

 

And the idea that one DC key is more significant than another since it may have influenced the developed the first Marvel creation doesn't address the impact it had on the DC Silver Age.

 

Flash 105 and JLA 1 are both great keys and have significant roles in DC's SA that are worth discussing and comparing.

 

 

 

....I probably should have worded my post differently. I always enjoy your threads and the debates are always fun. It's only my opinion as to the "redundancy" of the books where franchises finally receive their own title after appearing elsewhere. The 105 does have Mirror Master's first appearance, so there is added significance there. That may give 105 the edge (to me...) between these two. I still view them both in the same light that I would an ASM 1.......important, but mainly "after the fact". GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u