Bigger SA Key: Flash 105 or Justice League of America 1?

[mysterio]

Does JLA #1 exist if not for Flash #105?

 

Does amazing spiderman 129 exist if not for amazing spiderman 128?

 

That is irrelevant.

 

I'm not sure how your example illustrates anything remotely relevant to this discussion. As pointed out above, #105 came out a year earlier. Flash was the lynchpin of the reintroduction of heroes, in new versions, for the Silver Age of DC. Without the success of Flash it's likely the others wouldn't have followed. Without the success of a Flash solo title, it's likely that other solo titles wouldn't have followed. Neither irrelevant nor a stretch.

 

 

If Amazing Spiderman 128 (and earlier issues) was not successful, it's possible that 129 and later would not have happened.

 

Fact is 129 is much more important than 128 although it stands on the shoulders of 128.

 

All true, but in the way that Tuesday follows Monday. Monday needn't have anything particularly special for Tuesday to follow. Without Flash #105 setting the stage for other DC books dedicated to individual heroes or teams, JLA #1 was not a guarantee. Meanwhile, ASM #129 was going to come along, assuming that people bought enough copies of #128 to make printing it a viable proposition. But nothing in the content of #128 made #129 any more or less inevitable, or, in other words, it was Tuesday following Monday. Not the same thing.

 

Yes, assuming that people bought enough copies of 128. You are saying that the fact that people bought "enough copies of Flash 105" might have motivated JLA1.. So pretty similar argument.

 

Anyway - I actually doubt that JLA1 was published due to the success of Flash 105. Rather the opposite is often true... when characters couldn't stand on their own... they were made into teams instead. If Flash 105 did not happen I think it had changed nothing for JLA1.. perhaps Flash would still be in JLA because DC used JLA to revive several GA properties - and rather than try his own title, they might have put him straight into JLA1. Alternatively he would not have been part of JLA... but since he was part in BB28 the most probable is that the (lack of) success of Flash 1 had very little or nothing to do with that decision.

 

The decision to publish 129 on the other hand had something to do with whether 128 or earlier issues were a success.

 

This argument seems similar to proposing that the Avengers would have been published even without JIM #83 or TOS #39. The successful reintroduction of Flash paved the way for the rest of the DC SA. Flash #105 paved the way for the remainder of the solo books (i.e. not Showcase or B&B). You're assuming that the rest of the DCU evolves the same way even if those key events surrounding the Flash don't happen.

 

That's not similar at all. JIM83 and TOS39 introduced those and they would not have existed and could not have been in Avengers.

 

Did Flash 105 introduce the Flash? No. Of course Flash could still have been in JLA regardless of Flash 105.

 

If you don't see the fundamental shift that took place with the DC SA then I see why it is easier to argue the points you're making.

[Comicdey]

Voted JLA 1, only because I have a copy.

 

Really Flash 105 is a cool book and I need to get one.

[AlexanderM]

Does JLA #1 exist if not for Flash #105?

 

Does amazing spiderman 129 exist if not for amazing spiderman 128?

 

That is irrelevant.

 

I'm not sure how your example illustrates anything remotely relevant to this discussion. As pointed out above, #105 came out a year earlier. Flash was the lynchpin of the reintroduction of heroes, in new versions, for the Silver Age of DC. Without the success of Flash it's likely the others wouldn't have followed. Without the success of a Flash solo title, it's likely that other solo titles wouldn't have followed. Neither irrelevant nor a stretch.

 

 

If Amazing Spiderman 128 (and earlier issues) was not successful, it's possible that 129 and later would not have happened.

 

Fact is 129 is much more important than 128 although it stands on the shoulders of 128.

 

All true, but in the way that Tuesday follows Monday. Monday needn't have anything particularly special for Tuesday to follow. Without Flash #105 setting the stage for other DC books dedicated to individual heroes or teams, JLA #1 was not a guarantee. Meanwhile, ASM #129 was going to come along, assuming that people bought enough copies of #128 to make printing it a viable proposition. But nothing in the content of #128 made #129 any more or less inevitable, or, in other words, it was Tuesday following Monday. Not the same thing.

 

Yes, assuming that people bought enough copies of 128. You are saying that the fact that people bought "enough copies of Flash 105" might have motivated JLA1.. So pretty similar argument.

 

Anyway - I actually doubt that JLA1 was published due to the success of Flash 105. Rather the opposite is often true... when characters couldn't stand on their own... they were made into teams instead. If Flash 105 did not happen I think it had changed nothing for JLA1.. perhaps Flash would still be in JLA because DC used JLA to revive several GA properties - and rather than try his own title, they might have put him straight into JLA1. Alternatively he would not have been part of JLA... but since he was part in BB28 the most probable is that the (lack of) success of Flash 1 had very little or nothing to do with that decision.

 

The decision to publish 129 on the other hand had something to do with whether 128 or earlier issues were a success.

 

This argument seems similar to proposing that the Avengers would have been published even without JIM #83 or TOS #39. The successful reintroduction of Flash paved the way for the rest of the DC SA. Flash #105 paved the way for the remainder of the solo books (i.e. not Showcase or B&B). You're assuming that the rest of the DCU evolves the same way even if those key events surrounding the Flash don't happen.

 

That's not similar at all. JIM83 and TOS39 introduced those and they would not have existed and could not have been in Avengers.

 

Did Flash 105 introduce the Flash? No. Of course Flash could still have been in JLA regardless of Flash 105.

 

If you don't see the fundamental shift that took place with the DC SA then I see why it is easier to argue the points you're making.

 

The shift happened with SC4 (first in a huge reintro of older superheroes) and BB28 (the success of JLA inspired FF1 and the Marvel age). JLA1 then is the first true appearance of JLA in own title. Flash 105 is the second time the Flash has his own title.

[thunsicker]

Does JLA #1 exist if not for Flash #105?

 

Does amazing spiderman 129 exist if not for amazing spiderman 128?

 

That is irrelevant.

 

I'm not sure how your example illustrates anything remotely relevant to this discussion. As pointed out above, #105 came out a year earlier. Flash was the lynchpin of the reintroduction of heroes, in new versions, for the Silver Age of DC. Without the success of Flash it's likely the others wouldn't have followed. Without the success of a Flash solo title, it's likely that other solo titles wouldn't have followed. Neither irrelevant nor a stretch.

 

 

If Amazing Spiderman 128 (and earlier issues) was not successful, it's possible that 129 and later would not have happened.

 

Fact is 129 is much more important than 128 although it stands on the shoulders of 128.

 

All true, but in the way that Tuesday follows Monday. Monday needn't have anything particularly special for Tuesday to follow. Without Flash #105 setting the stage for other DC books dedicated to individual heroes or teams, JLA #1 was not a guarantee. Meanwhile, ASM #129 was going to come along, assuming that people bought enough copies of #128 to make printing it a viable proposition. But nothing in the content of #128 made #129 any more or less inevitable, or, in other words, it was Tuesday following Monday. Not the same thing.

 

Yes, assuming that people bought enough copies of 128. You are saying that the fact that people bought "enough copies of Flash 105" might have motivated JLA1.. So pretty similar argument.

 

Anyway - I actually doubt that JLA1 was published due to the success of Flash 105. Rather the opposite is often true... when characters couldn't stand on their own... they were made into teams instead. If Flash 105 did not happen I think it had changed nothing for JLA1.. perhaps Flash would still be in JLA because DC used JLA to revive several GA properties - and rather than try his own title, they might have put him straight into JLA1. Alternatively he would not have been part of JLA... but since he was part in BB28 the most probable is that the (lack of) success of Flash 1 had very little or nothing to do with that decision.

 

The decision to publish 129 on the other hand had something to do with whether 128 or earlier issues were a success.

 

This argument seems similar to proposing that the Avengers would have been published even without JIM #83 or TOS #39. The successful reintroduction of Flash paved the way for the rest of the DC SA. Flash #105 paved the way for the remainder of the solo books (i.e. not Showcase or B&B). You're assuming that the rest of the DCU evolves the same way even if those key events surrounding the Flash don't happen.

 

That's not similar at all. JIM83 and TOS39 introduced those and they would not have existed and could not have been in Avengers.

 

Did Flash 105 introduce the Flash? No. Of course Flash could still have been in JLA regardless of Flash 105.

 

If you don't see the fundamental shift that took place with the DC SA then I see why it is easier to argue the points you're making.

 

The shift happened with SC4 (first in a huge reintro of older superheroes) and BB28 (the success of JLA inspired FF1 and the Marvel age). JLA1 then is the first true appearance of JLA. Flash 105 is the second time the Flash has his own title.

 

I always thought Brave and the Bold #28 was the first appearance of the JLA.

 

EDIT: And there are two questions in the original post. Which is more significant, and which is worth more. I can buy that JLA #1 is going to be worth more (or already is), but as far as significance? Flash #105 hands down. Much as I'd argue that AF #15 is worth more but FF #1 is more significant.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Does JLA #1 exist if not for Flash #105?

 

Does amazing spiderman 129 exist if not for amazing spiderman 128?

 

That is irrelevant.

 

I'm not sure how your example illustrates anything remotely relevant to this discussion. As pointed out above, #105 came out a year earlier. Flash was the lynchpin of the reintroduction of heroes, in new versions, for the Silver Age of DC. Without the success of Flash it's likely the others wouldn't have followed. Without the success of a Flash solo title, it's likely that other solo titles wouldn't have followed. Neither irrelevant nor a stretch.

 

 

If Amazing Spiderman 128 (and earlier issues) was not successful, it's possible that 129 and later would not have happened.

 

Fact is 129 is much more important than 128 although it stands on the shoulders of 128.

 

All true, but in the way that Tuesday follows Monday. Monday needn't have anything particularly special for Tuesday to follow. Without Flash #105 setting the stage for other DC books dedicated to individual heroes or teams, JLA #1 was not a guarantee. Meanwhile, ASM #129 was going to come along, assuming that people bought enough copies of #128 to make printing it a viable proposition. But nothing in the content of #128 made #129 any more or less inevitable, or, in other words, it was Tuesday following Monday. Not the same thing.

 

Yes, assuming that people bought enough copies of 128. You are saying that the fact that people bought "enough copies of Flash 105" might have motivated JLA1.. So pretty similar argument.

 

Anyway - I actually doubt that JLA1 was published due to the success of Flash 105. Rather the opposite is often true... when characters couldn't stand on their own... they were made into teams instead. If Flash 105 did not happen I think it had changed nothing for JLA1.. perhaps Flash would still be in JLA because DC used JLA to revive several GA properties - and rather than try his own title, they might have put him straight into JLA1. Alternatively he would not have been part of JLA... but since he was part in BB28 the most probable is that the (lack of) success of Flash 1 had very little or nothing to do with that decision.

 

The decision to publish 129 on the other hand had something to do with whether 128 or earlier issues were a success.

 

This argument seems similar to proposing that the Avengers would have been published even without JIM #83 or TOS #39. The successful reintroduction of Flash paved the way for the rest of the DC SA. Flash #105 paved the way for the remainder of the solo books (i.e. not Showcase or B&B). You're assuming that the rest of the DCU evolves the same way even if those key events surrounding the Flash don't happen.

 

That's not similar at all. JIM83 and TOS39 introduced those and they would not have existed and could not have been in Avengers.

 

Did Flash 105 introduce the Flash? No. Of course Flash could still have been in JLA regardless of Flash 105.

 

If you don't see the fundamental shift that took place with the DC SA then I see why it is easier to argue the points you're making.

 

The shift happened with SC4 (first in a huge reintro of older superheroes) and BB28 (the success of JLA inspired FF1 and the Marvel age). JLA1 then is the first true appearance of JLA in own title. Flash 105 is the second time the Flash has his own title.

 

The "JLA inspired FF" story never happened. It is apocryphal, it didn't occur.

 

And no, Flash #105 is NOT the "second time the Flash has his own title", because Jay Garrick and Barry Allen are completely different characters.

 

As others have said, Flash #105 was the first superhero title relaunch DC ever did. Its success led to others, including JLA #1.

 

Flash #105..being the very first new DC superhero title of the Silver Age...is a more important book, and always has been. The only real issue is that it is #105, rather than #1.

 

Personally, I think it would have been cool if DC and Marvel had kept the old numbering for all the relaunched titles...Green Lantern #39, Sub-Mariner #43, and Captain America #79 would have been kinda cool.

[oakman29]

Without JLA#1 would we have had a team book in F.F.#1? Would it have changed the make up of the Marvel universe?

[mysterio]

Without JLA#1 would we have had a team book in F.F.#1? Would it have changed the make up of the Marvel universe?

 

I thought Challengers allegedly inspired the FF. The Justice League seems more likely to have inspired the Avengers.

[rjpb]

Showcase #4 > B&B #28

 

B&B #28 > Flash #105

 

Flash #105 > JLA #1

 

Where does Showcase #22 fit in?

[FineCollector]

Showcase 4 > B&B 28 > Showcase 22 > Flash 105 > JLA 1.

 

That was easy... what else ya got?

[AlexanderM]

Showcase 4 > B&B 28 > Showcase 22 > Flash 105 > JLA 1.

 

That was easy... what else ya got?

 

many...maybe most.. don't agree with that.

[mysterio]

Showcase 4 > B&B 28 > Showcase 22 > Flash 105 > JLA 1.

 

That was easy... what else ya got?

 

many...maybe most.. don't agree with that.

 

I'd agree with it.

[BarryAllen]

Showcase 4 > B&B 28 > Showcase 22 > Flash 105 > JLA 1.

 

That was easy... what else ya got?

 

many...maybe most.. don't agree with that.

 

I have been told arguing for others without data to back it (a poll or other consensus proving detail) is not a strong argument around these parts. However, why don't you agree?

 

I think it is pretty clear that:

Showcase 4 > Flash 105

B&B 28 > JLA1

 

Also:

Showcase 4 > Showcase 22 (these are my two favorite characters so it is hard, but Flash is more valuable at this point, more historically significant and scarcer).

 

 

Is it the order? What would you propose? B&B 28 over Showcase 4?

 

:shrug:

[Silver]

I predict in time BB 28 will pass up SC 4. Spidey passed FF1, it can happen.

[ttfitz]

The "JLA inspired FF" story never happened. It is apocryphal, it didn't occur.

 

What I have read is that the "Martin Goodman playing golf with Jack Liebowitz /Irwin Donenfeld DC" story is apocryphal, but Stan Lee certainly supports the FF coming about because of JLA in some part. In Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan writes:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

[ttfitz]

Without JLA#1 would we have had a team book in F.F.#1? Would it have changed the make up of the Marvel universe?

 

I thought Challengers allegedly inspired the FF. The Justice League seems more likely to have inspired the Avengers.

 

It depends on what you mean by "inspired". I'd agree that FF was patterned after Challengers in some fashion by Jack Kirby, but the idea of starting a title with a team has been attributed to the example of the JLA.

[AlexanderM]

Showcase 4 > B&B 28 > Showcase 22 > Flash 105 > JLA 1.

 

That was easy... what else ya got?

 

many...maybe most.. don't agree with that.

 

I have been told arguing for others without data to back it (a poll or other consensus proving detail) is not a strong argument around these parts. However, why don't you agree?

 

I think it is pretty clear that:

Showcase 4 > Flash 105

B&B 28 > JLA1

 

Also:

Showcase 4 > Showcase 22 (these are my two favorite characters so it is hard, but Flash is more valuable at this point, more historically significant and scarcer).

 

 

Is it the order? What would you propose? B&B 28 over Showcase 4?

 

:shrug:

 

You have been told by others that arguing without data like a poll is not a strong argument. .. well...this thread is a poll..And currently the majority thinks JLA1 is more important than Flash 105.

 

....

 

 

I have BB28 as the top DC SA book. Closely followed by SC4. Those two however are in their own league as far as DC SA. Next come the three others I agree. There is not too much between them but I tend to rank a true first appearance over merely another person being x superhero. So by that logic I probably have JLA1 slightly ahead of the two others. And among SC 22 and f 105 Flash is historically the more important superhero in my opinion. However flash did not live up to its potential for decades but will be getting due attention these years and for that reason I think f 105 might again take over SC 22.

[AlexanderM]

The "JLA inspired FF" story never happened. It is apocryphal, it didn't occur.

 

What I have read is that the "Martin Goodman playing golf with Jack Liebowitz /Irwin Donenfeld DC" story is apocryphal, but Stan Lee certainly supports the FF coming about because of JLA in some part. In Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan writes:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

Yes. I also thought this was common knowledge in here. The success of ...... inspired the FF1 etc.

 

Filling out the dots would certainly not spell challengers of the unknown.. one reason is that it was not a particularly successful tryout.

[oakman29]

The "JLA inspired FF" story never happened. It is apocryphal, it didn't occur.

 

What I have read is that the "Martin Goodman playing golf with Jack Liebowitz /Irwin Donenfeld DC" story is apocryphal, but Stan Lee certainly supports the FF coming about because of JLA in some part. In Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan writes:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

Yes. I also thought this was common knowledge in here. The success of ...... inspired the FF1 etc.

 

Filling out the dots would certainly not spell challengers of the unknown.. one reason is that it was not a particularly successful tryout.

 

So I'll pose this question again.Without JLA#1 would we have had a team book in F.F.#1? Would it have changed the make up of the Marvel universe?

I think this is very important to note. Without the JLA#1 there would not have been a F.F.#1. This is why to me , this a very important key book. Not just for DC,but for the entire Silver age.

[AlexanderM]

The "JLA inspired FF" story never happened. It is apocryphal, it didn't occur.

 

What I have read is that the "Martin Goodman playing golf with Jack Liebowitz /Irwin Donenfeld DC" story is apocryphal, but Stan Lee certainly supports the FF coming about because of JLA in some part. In Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan writes:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

Yes. I also thought this was common knowledge in here. The success of ...... inspired the FF1 etc.

 

Filling out the dots would certainly not spell challengers of the unknown.. one reason is that it was not a particularly successful tryout.

 

So I'll pose this question again.Without JLA#1 would we have had a team book in F.F.#1? Would it have changed the make up of the Marvel universe?

I think this is very important to note. Without the JLA#1 there would not have been a F.F.#1. This is why to me , this a very important key book. Not just for DC,but for the entire Silver age.

 

Yes. Historically the decision to make JLA1 is tremendously important.

[oakman29]

The "JLA inspired FF" story never happened. It is apocryphal, it didn't occur.

 

What I have read is that the "Martin Goodman playing golf with Jack Liebowitz /Irwin Donenfeld DC" story is apocryphal, but Stan Lee certainly supports the FF coming about because of JLA in some part. In Origins of Marvel Comics, Stan writes:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

Yes. I also thought this was common knowledge in here. The success of ...... inspired the FF1 etc.

 

Filling out the dots would certainly not spell challengers of the unknown.. one reason is that it was not a particularly successful tryout.

 

So I'll pose this question again.Without JLA#1 would we have had a team book in F.F.#1? Would it have changed the make up of the Marvel universe?

I think this is very important to note. Without the JLA#1 there would not have been a F.F.#1. This is why to me , this a very important key book. Not just for DC,but for the entire Silver age.

 

Yes. Historically the decision to make JLA1 is tremendously important.

 

With that said JLA#1 would be a much more important book than Flash 105.