Bigger SA Key: Flash 105 or Justice League of America 1?

[BarryAllen]

Unless you get rid of it, you will always have this problem.

 

Thank you for teaching me about my problems.

 

Aren't you, telling me how this I am, and how that I am, doing the exact same thing...?

 

One of us has a problem, rfoiii, that's for sure..

 

Don't you ever get tired of giving so much?

 

FYI - I love that even my "problem" is about you. So arrogant.

 

No, your problem is about you, not me. I am only the current focus. Unless something changes, you will have this problem long after I am gone from your world.

 

Still teaching, or is it preaching? Feels a bit preachy as it goes along...

 

Seriously, do you ever get tired of the sound of your fingers on the keyboard (I would say "sound of your voice" but I hope you don't read it all out-loud)?

 

Is there anything wrong with how you do things? Approach these conversations? Your tone is always even and your are never acting out of place? Or is everything you say and do "just great?"

 

Zero accountability, is it all me? :shrug:

 

 

Let's wrap this up with something that is unequivocal: If you have a problem with the way I post, take it up with the moderators. I don't tell you or anyone else how to post...neither should you be telling anyone else how to, either.

 

Otherwise...mind your own business, and I'll mind mine. If you come after me, I will respond. If you refuse to let it go, *I* will take it up with the moderators.

 

It really is that simple.

 

Feel free to take it to the moderators bud. I will post and tell people how to post whenever and in whatever thread I feel like. What I say or don't say isn't up to you one little bit.

 

In fact, go wild because I haven't done a thing that warrants any type of moderation. Neither have you.

 

So take it to them, now and often my friend.

 

Hump the button and enjoy it!

 

 

 

But if I don't like the way you post or what you say, I will tell you - not the moderators.

[steveinthecity]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Feel free to take it to the moderators bud. I will post and tell people how to post whenever and in whatever thread I feel like.

 

There you go. You tell 'em. Stamp those feet! Ain't NOBODY putting Baby in a corner!

 

 

What I say or don't say isn't up to you one little bit.

 

You're absolutely right. What you say or don't say isn't up to me one little bit, unless you violate the board rules. And what I say or don't say isn't up to you one little bit.

 

Is any of this getting through...? Any at all...? I mean, ANY of it...?

 

In fact, go wild because I haven't done a thing that warrants any type of moderation. Neither have you.

 

Oh yes you have. Provocation is an actionable offense. You really need to read the board rules.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

But if I don't like the way you post or what you say, I will tell you - not the moderators.

 

And then the moderators will probably give you a strike for failing to observe board rules.

[RockMyAmadeus]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

 

Sorry Steve. Minor disturbance over there...

 

[BarryAllen]

 

But if I don't like the way you post or what you say, I will tell you - not the moderators.

 

And then the moderators will probably give you a strike for failing to observe board rules.

 

 

Probably not.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

But if I don't like the way you post or what you say, I will tell you - not the moderators.

 

And then the moderators will probably give you a strike for failing to observe board rules.

 

 

Probably not.

 

 

You've got such newb chutzpah.

 

Just wait until you get in Arch's crosshairs.

 

[BarryAllen]

 

But if I don't like the way you post or what you say, I will tell you - not the moderators.

 

And then the moderators will probably give you a strike for failing to observe board rules.

 

 

Probably not.

 

 

You've got such newb chutzpah.

 

Just wait until you get in Arch's crosshairs.

 

 

 

Gotta break the rules to fear them. :shrug:

[AlexanderM]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

 

I think it is, like Oakman said, a bit of lack of knowledge of the historical significance of JLA1. This poll was even until we got into the facts and someone, for example, presented Stan's oppinion etc. Since then JLA1 has been distancing Flash 105.

[RockMyAmadeus]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

 

I think it is, like Oakman said, a bit of lack of knowledge of the historical significance of JLA1. This poll was even until we got into the facts and someone, for example, presented Stan's oppinion etc. Since then JLA1 has been distancing Flash 105.

 

You're placing too much emphasis on a random quote from Martin Goodman.

 

There's nothing in that quote that says "yes, we're going to create a new team book, and that team book is going to be Fantastic Four."

 

All Goodman is saying is "hey, DC has a team book...maybe we should try superheroes again."

 

To make the leap that Goodman's quote is the reason FF exists is a bit much.

[ttfitz]

You must understand it, or you are going to continue to be frustrated and annoyed by things that you shouldn't let frustrate and annoy you.

 

This is some good advice. I find myself quite often disagreeing with many things that RMA says, and the way he says them. But I don't get annoyed and frustrated by it - that would give him too much power over me. Truthfully, much of the time it just amuses me.

[ttfitz]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

 

I think it is, like Oakman said, a bit of lack of knowledge of the historical significance of JLA1. This poll was even until we got into the facts and someone, for example, presented Stan's oppinion etc. Since then JLA1 has been distancing Flash 105.

 

You're placing too much emphasis on a random quote from Martin Goodman.

 

There's nothing in that quote that says "yes, we're going to create a new team book, and that team book is going to be Fantastic Four."

 

All Goodman is saying is "hey, DC has a team book...maybe we should try superheroes again."

 

To make the leap that Goodman's quote is the reason FF exists is a bit much.

 

Well, you've made some progress - moved from this being "apocryphal" to an acknowledgment of it's existence.

 

But still, it isn't really a "leap", it's what Stan said happened. Once again:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

Whether you call that "inspiring" the Fantastic Four or not is a matter of interpretation, but it DOES speak of direct causality, or "the reason FF exists."

 

(And I would tend to agree that when Stan likely said, "Hey, Jack, Martin wants us to start a team of superheroes" that Jack drew his inspiration from Challengers much more than JLA.)

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Well, you've made some progress - moved from this being "apocryphal" to an acknowledgment of it's existence.

 

You are mistaken. The "Goodman/Donenfeld golf" story that has been told many times over is to what my original comment referred, not the "Stan Lee quoting Goodman" story.

 

Hopefully, that clears up any misunderstanding you might have. Since you, yourself, acknowledged that that story was apocryphal, I'm surprised you misunderstood my comment.

 

But still, it isn't really a "leap", it's what Stan said happened. Once again:

 

"Martin mentioned that he had noticed one of the titles published by National Comics seemed to be selling better than most. It was a book called The Justice League of America and it was composed of a team of superheroes. ... 'If the Justice League is selling', spoke he, 'why don't we put out a comic book that features a team of superheroes?'"

 

Whether you call that "inspiring" the Fantastic Four or not is a matter of interpretation, but it DOES speak of direct causality, or "the reason FF exists."

 

One more time...that quote, of and by itself, does not mean that Stan Lee then said "ok, we'll get to work right on it" and then they deliver FF #1 however many weeks/months later.

 

Timely/Atlas/Marvel had already published "teams of superheroes" in the past, so it wasn't anything new to them...it just hadn't been done for quite a while.

 

Whether Goodman actually said that or not (and all we have is Stan's statement, and Stan is an old man, who is known for "misremembering" things that have happened in the past), to say that that comment is the direct causality for FF #1 is still a stretch based solely on that single comment.

[RockMyAmadeus]

You must understand it, or you are going to continue to be frustrated and annoyed by things that you shouldn't let frustrate and annoy you.

 

This is some good advice. I find myself quite often disagreeing with many things that RMA says, and the way he says them. But I don't get annoyed and frustrated by it - that would give him too much power over me. Truthfully, much of the time it just amuses me.

 

It's not about having "power" over anyone; it's about exercising self-control, and not letting your emotions rule your reason.

 

I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say. But how someone says what they say isn't anyone else's business, unless they're violating board rules, and then it is the moderation team's business. You might want to ask yourself if the issue is really the way I say what I say, or how you read what I say. That's always an important question to ask.

 

Is there a reason for saying this, however? Seems unnecessarily condescending to tell someone they "just amuse" you.

 

And why do you quote me, and then refer to me in the third person? That's a bit dismissive, is it not? Is there a reason to make contemptuous personal comments about others? Is there a reason to be discussing personality issues in a thread like this...? First rfoiii, and now you...? Why must we continually talk about the people IN the discussion, rather than just the discussion?

 

[mysterio]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

 

I think it is, like Oakman said, a bit of lack of knowledge of the historical significance of JLA1. This poll was even until we got into the facts and someone, for example, presented Stan's oppinion etc. Since then JLA1 has been distancing Flash 105.

 

I know the boards are quite Marvel-centric, and I consider myself a Marvel collector as well. But I find it curious that seemingly the entire case for the importance of JLA #1 rests on the possibility that it influenced the creation of the FF. DC spearheaded the reintroduction/reimagination of heroes and ushered in the SA. DC successfully launched new titles based on those heroes, with Flash leading the way in both cases. To morph this discussion into how Marvel may have been influenced by DC's trail blazing, as if Marvel is really the whole point, seriously distorts and discounts the historical importance of these events. It also overestimates the significance of JLA #1 relative to the other DC books of the era. It's perfectly fine to like JLA #1 more, but other than this FF tangent I have yet to see anyone try to argue that you would have seen JLA #1 if Flash #105 hadn't been successful and demonstrated that solo books outside of tryout series (like Showcase and B&B) would fly.

[AlexanderM]

You must understand it, or you are going to continue to be frustrated and annoyed by things that you shouldn't let frustrate and annoy you.

 

This is some good advice. I find myself quite often disagreeing with many things that RMA says, and the way he says them. But I don't get annoyed and frustrated by it - that would give him too much power over me. Truthfully, much of the time it just amuses me.

 

It's not about having "power" over anyone; it's about exercising self-control, and not letting your emotions rule your reason.

 

I have no problem with you disagreeing with what I say. But how someone says what they say isn't anyone else's business, unless they're violating board rules, and then it is the moderation team's business. You might want to ask yourself if the issue is really the way I say what I say, or how you read what I say. That's always an important question to ask.

 

Is there a reason for saying this, however? Seems unnecessarily condescending to tell someone they "just amuse" you.

 

And why do you quote me, and then refer to me in the third person? That's a bit dismissive, is it not? Is there a reason to make contemptuous personal comments about others? Is there a reason to be discussing personality issues in a thread like this...? First rfoiii, and now you...? Why must we continually talk about the people IN the discussion, rather than just the discussion?

 

 

Stan and Martin considered the viability of making a team because of how successful JLA proved to be. Once the financial decision was made that a team of superheroes in their own title could be viable for Marvel, they went to figure out which super-heroes to put in. For this second stage, I think it might be true that Challengers of the Unknown played a part (probably still also JLA because they wanted to learn from DC what made them successful (if they did not try to figure this out they would be insufficiently_thoughtful_persons.. and I don't think they are). And the fact remains that the success of JLA was crucial to even make Marvel consider this.

 

Now, this seems pretty objectively to be how history describes the events.

[Columbia Comics]

I voted for JLA 1 but I personally like Flash 105 better.

[jimjum12]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

 

I think it is, like Oakman said, a bit of lack of knowledge of the historical significance of JLA1. This poll was even until we got into the facts and someone, for example, presented Stan's oppinion etc. Since then JLA1 has been distancing Flash 105.

 

I know the boards are quite Marvel-centric, and I consider myself a Marvel collector as well. But I find it curious that seemingly the entire case for the importance of JLA #1 rests on the possibility that it influenced the creation of the FF. DC spearheaded the reintroduction/reimagination of heroes and ushered in the SA. DC successfully launched new titles based on those heroes, with Flash leading the way in both cases. To morph this discussion into how Marvel may have been influenced by DC's trail blazing, as if Marvel is really the whole point, seriously distorts and discounts the historical importance of these events. It also overestimates the significance of JLA #1 relative to the other DC books of the era. It's perfectly fine to like JLA #1 more, but other than this FF tangent I have yet to see anyone try to argue that you would have seen JLA #1 if Flash #105 hadn't been successful and demonstrated that solo books outside of tryout series (like Showcase and B&B) would fly.

 

.... the fact that DC had been publishing a tryout title(Showcase) since 1956 would indicate to me that they had plans to expand their line for a while before Flash 105 or JLA 1 hit the racks. Certainly their goal was for more than just one new title..... so I'm doubting that Flash 105 was to be a deal breaker in regards to future titles. As to the Golf Conversation.... I'm sure it may have been an impetus towards Marvel's decision to re enter the Superhero market, but to assume that was the only factor would be shortsighted. I'm inclined to assume that Goodman had his own sources of market research in place.... you know, feedback from News Stand operators and Distributors in regards to what has selling to help him make publishing decisions. The parallels between Challengers and the FF that RMA has noted are obvious to those who care about those titles, and Challengers #3 is chock full of prototypical "powers" that would later see light in the Marvel Universe. Kirby has gone on record to claim that he felt his efforts at DC were unappreciated and under utilized and took full advantage of Marvel's new direction to continue harvesting from his hotbed of ideas. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[mysterio]

One thing I'm finding curious is that currently going head to head JLA is leading Flash 35-30, with 4 undecided, yet less than two months ago we were asked to list the top ten SA books and Flash 105 finished ahead of JLA.  

 

BB28 took the top spot in that poll, so I'm just wondering if JLA 1's importance was considered to be much less relative to other titles as votes instead went to SC22, AC252, and Adventure 247 due to JLA already being represented?

 

I think it is, like Oakman said, a bit of lack of knowledge of the historical significance of JLA1. This poll was even until we got into the facts and someone, for example, presented Stan's oppinion etc. Since then JLA1 has been distancing Flash 105.

 

I know the boards are quite Marvel-centric, and I consider myself a Marvel collector as well. But I find it curious that seemingly the entire case for the importance of JLA #1 rests on the possibility that it influenced the creation of the FF. DC spearheaded the reintroduction/reimagination of heroes and ushered in the SA. DC successfully launched new titles based on those heroes, with Flash leading the way in both cases. To morph this discussion into how Marvel may have been influenced by DC's trail blazing, as if Marvel is really the whole point, seriously distorts and discounts the historical importance of these events. It also overestimates the significance of JLA #1 relative to the other DC books of the era. It's perfectly fine to like JLA #1 more, but other than this FF tangent I have yet to see anyone try to argue that you would have seen JLA #1 if Flash #105 hadn't been successful and demonstrated that solo books outside of tryout series (like Showcase and B&B) would fly.

 

.... the fact that DC had been publishing a tryout title(Showcase) since 1956 would indicate to me that they had plans to expand their line for a while before Flash 105 or JLA 1 hit the racks. Certainly their goal was for more than just one new title..... so I'm doubting that Flash 105 was to be a deal breaker in regards to future titles. As to the Golf Conversation.... I'm sure it may have been an impetus towards Marvel's decision to re enter the Superhero market, but to assume that was the only factor would be shortsighted. I'm inclined to assume that Goodman had his own sources of market research in place.... you know, feedback from News Stand operators and Distributors in regards to what has selling to help him make publishing decisions. The parallels between Challengers and the FF that RMA has noted are obvious to those who care about those titles, and Challengers #3 is chock full of prototypical "powers" that would later see light in the Marvel Universe. Kirby has gone on record to claim that he felt his efforts at DC were unappreciated and under utilized and took full advantage of Marvel's new direction to continue harvesting from his hotbed of ideas. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

Fair enough. I think I was a bit unclear in what I said, or at least what I typed didn't really reflect my thought process. A flop with Flash #105 would have been a deal breaker, sure, but it was more the success of that book that lead to the creation of other solo titles. It lead the way and showed proof of concept. If #105 sold poorly do you think that DC would have been rushing other books to market that focused on individual heroes or teams? I imagine that JLA would have been stuck as a feature in B&B for some time, rather than breaking out on their own (hence my vote for #105 here). Same with Green Lantern and other heroes like Aquaman that were reintroduced to SA audiences in tryout books.

 

You're absolutely right in that the tryout books would allow DC to "try out" a lot of different stuff. But if their intention with those titles was simply to re-enter the super hero market then why didn't they start either Showcase or B&B with super hero stories? To me it seems as though DC was happy to throw any number of things out there to see what stuck, and ultimately it was Flash and Green Lantern (in Showcase) and JLA (in B&B) that proved to be the big winners. If the public had been clamoring for stories on fire fighters, frogmen, or Robin Hood would we have seen the SA unfold the way it did? It seems to me that we are looking back at the DC experiment as a foregone conclusion leading to super heroes and ultimately to Marvel, when it was really just an experiment that hit paydirt.

[markseifert]

 

You are mistaken. The "Goodman/Donenfeld golf" story that has been told many times over is to what my original comment referred, not the "Stan Lee quoting Goodman" story.

 

Hopefully, that clears up any misunderstanding you might have. Since you, yourself, acknowledged that that story was apocryphal, I'm surprised you misunderstood my comment.

 

....

 

Whether Goodman actually said that or not (and all we have is Stan's statement, and Stan is an old man, who is known for "misremembering" things that have happened in the past), to say that that comment is the direct causality for FF #1 is still a stretch based solely on that single comment.

 

Not sure where the discussion stands, but RMA is on the money on both of these points, imo.

 

I'd also add that in general, interviews about this stuff covering events that occurred decades prior should be viewed skeptically. For me, it always comes back to this: Motion Picture Funnies Weekly was not referenced in any form in the industry's collective narrative about its origins, until after copies were discovered.

 

That discovery changed people's recollections of events they lived through. If the Jacquet family had tossed those out rather than sell them, one of our most fundamental "birth of the industry" narratives would be wildly wrong. If you are interested in these sorts of debates, that should give you pause. You gotta let guys like RMA poke and prod at the conventional wisdom, and accept that as a net good thing.

 

****

 

Also -- the accepted narrative of the beginning of the Silver Age has a lot of problems, really. Go look at how many golden age super hero revivals or new superhero launches occurred from late 1953 up to the publication of Showcase 4. You will be very surprised.