Where's the split?

[Legion HQ]

So, I've been thinking about this with Marvel's Star Wars series lately. And then similar ideas have been mentioned a couple times in other threads over the past few days. But where do people consider the splits in each long-running series that ran between the Bronze Age and the Copper Age?

 

It could be a certain storyline separates the eras, maybe the introduction of a popular character, or perhaps a change in writer / artist signifies the change. There are some series that are "early bloomers" for Copper while others may have a longer lasting Bronze feel well into the 80s. In any case, each series must have a definite split at some specific issue so that we can know which Age to label a questionable issue (think of the debate with Harley Quinn's intro in BA 12....is it Copper or Modern???).

 

A few examples:

• Marvel's Star Wars (began 7/77 - ended 9/86): My inclination would be the conclusion of The Empire Strikes Back adaptation with Issue 44 (2/81) would be a natural dividing point and signal the end of Bronze within the series. Issue 45 begins the Copper run.
  
• X-Men (10/68 - 12/11): The end of the Claremont / Byrne run with Issue 143 (3/81) would seem a fitting end to the Bronze era on the title.
  
• Daredevil (4/64 - 2/11): Miller had been doing art already, but for me it was really when he took over as writer on Issue 168 (1/81) that signifies a new Age on the title.
  
• Amazing Spider-Man (3/63 - 11/98): I've no idea on this one honestly. But my inclination would be the 1st appearance of Hobgoblin in Issue 238 (3/83) that brought sudden demand to the title after years of flagging interest? This is up for debate though. Maybe it was the introduction of the black costume in Issue 252 (5/84) for some folks, which is also a choice I can honestly go with.
  

Obviously I have a stronger knowledge of Marvel titles as a kid during the 80s, but I'm very interested in DC titles as well. So what are your splits on these titles and others that ran across both eras?

[RockMyAmadeus]

So, I've been thinking about this with Marvel's Star Wars series lately. And then similar ideas have been mentioned a couple times in other threads over the past few days. But where do people consider the splits in each long-running series that ran between the Bronze Age and the Copper Age?

 

It could be a certain storyline separates the eras, maybe the introduction of a popular character, or perhaps a change in writer / artist signifies the change. There are some series that are "early bloomers" for Copper while others may have a longer lasting Bronze feel well into the 80s. In any case, each series must have a definite split at some specific issue so that we can know which Age to label a questionable issue (think of the debate with Harley Quinn's intro in BA 12....is it Copper or Modern???).

 

A few examples:

[*]Marvel's Star Wars (began 7/77 - ended 9/86): My inclination would be the conclusion of The Empire Strikes Back adaptation with Issue 44 (2/81) would be a natural dividing point and signal the end of Bronze within the series. Issue 45 begins the Copper run.

 

What, thematically, changed during the course of the Star Wars run? I'd say Star Wars was one of the last Bronze holdouts, all the way to the end.

 

[*]X-Men (10/68 - 12/11): The end of the Claremont / Byrne run with Issue 143 (3/81) would seem a fitting end to the Bronze era on the title.

 

But X-Men went back to Cockrum for another year. The real "first Copper issue" is really #165. That's really the split with the past that X-Men made.

 

[*]Daredevil (4/64 - 2/11): Miller had been doing art already, but for me it was really when he took over as writer on Issue 168 (1/81) that signifies a new Age on the title.

 

The argument can be made that Elektra was the last great Bronze Age creation. She's ninja (kung fu was big in the BA), she's female (female supers were also a big BA innovation), and the feel of the book is still very "Bronze-ish.

 

I think the real change in the title is #181. After that, DD goes off into la la land, and it really becomes a Copper Age title.

 

[*]Amazing Spider-Man (3/63 - 11/98): I've no idea on this one honestly. But my inclination would be the 1st appearance of Hobgoblin in Issue 238 (3/83) that brought sudden demand to the title after years of flagging interest? This is up for debate though. Maybe it was the introduction of the black costume in Issue 252 (5/84) for some folks, which is also a choice I can honestly go with.

 

Spidey #238 is very much a departure from the past, in tone, if not in inspiration. Everything changed with #238.

 

As far as DCs go, the transition took a lot longer for most titles.

 

Batman #404

Man of Steel #1.

Wonder Woman #329/#1

Flash #350/#1

Justice League #361/#1

New Teen Titans #1 (the first "Copper" DC title.)

Swamp Thing #20

Green Lantern #201

 

[Legion HQ]

Interesting thought on the Star Wars series, RMA. I could actually go with that. Star Wars does seem much more of a Bronze Age construct that just lingered into Copper a tad too long.

 

I'll be curious to hear what others think of your X-Men split. The Claremont / Byrne era is just so well-regarded, perhaps the greatest run on any series ever. Definitely a Top 5 run. The issues post-143 just don't command the same attention or acclaim, and seem to me to be on the downward trend for the title after such an unsustainable peak, regardless of Cockrum's return.

 

As for Daredevil and Elektra, I would say that ninjas were more of a Copper trend (ie. Snake-Eyes, TMNT and all its copycats), regardless of the popularity of kung-fu during Bronze. The la la land comment made me though. I could easily be swayed.

 

As for DC, Crisis did provide a very natural break between the two Ages, ending many of its long-running series during that event.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As for DC, Crisis did provide a very natural break between the two Ages, ending many of its long-running series during that event.

 

Yes, it really does. As far as DC is concerned, Crisis provides about as clearcut a break with the past that exists. It really swept away the last of the Bronze and earlier feeling to the entire company....and that's 1985.

 

That's why having Copper end at Superman #75...or even before....really doesn't make much sense. There was nothing *new* that happened in those years...it was just more of the same. In fact, Yeah, ok, there was Valiant and Image....but Image was a direct....and I mean a DIRECT...outgrowth of what had been happening the entire Copper age and before: the exodus of top talent to own their own work. That's really the hallmark of the Copper Age, what separates it from all that happened before, along with acceptance of the Direct market. To say it was "something new" means one doesn't really understand the dynamics of the market at the time.

 

Superman.

 

The rise of the horror/crime/western/romance comics.

 

Revival of the GA superheroes in various forms.

 

The coming of fantasy comics and "socially relevant" comics.

 

The establishment of the Direct market and creator owned work.

 

These were all watershed events, that changed the direction of the entire market in their respective eras.

 

But there's absolutely nothing in the 90's that did that, with the possible exception of the collapse. But even after the collapse, nothing really *changed*...it was just more of the same, only smaller.

 

I think the next major change in the industry will be digital.

 

The case *could* be made for the cultural shift to films and tv, but that doesn't have much to do with the industry itself.

[Bosco685]

Obviously I have a stronger knowledge of Marvel titles as a kid during the 80s, but I'm very interested in DC titles as well. So what are your splits on these titles and others that ran across both eras?

 

This came up a few times before when people were discussing how to gauge the placement of a long run in the registry. If someone builds out Superman or Batman, which span many ages, are they truly Golden Age sets, or are they categories unto themselves?

 

As far as where the split happen between Bronze and Copper, there was a long discussion about the transition period.

 

Transition points leading to what we know today as the Copper Age

 

• May 1979: Daredevil 158- First Miller art
  
• Nov 1979: Iron Man #128 "Demon in a Bottle"
  
• Feb 1980: She-Hulk #1
  
• Mar 1980: King Conan 1
  
• Apr 1980: Star Trek 1
  
• Spring 1980: Epic Illustrated 1
  
• Sep 1980: X-Men 137- Death of Dark Phoenix
  
• Oct 1980: DC Presents 26- first New Teen Titans
  
• Nov 1980: New Teen Titans 1
  
• Nov 1980: Moon Knight gets his own series
  
• 1980 : Superboy Spectacular- Direct Sales only 1-shot
  
• Jan 1981: Daredevil 168- First Miller -script; Intro Elektra
  
• Jan 1981: X-Men 141 "Days of Future Past" launches alternate timeline which would form the basis for many X-continuity books/characters over the next several years.
  
• Jan 1981: Capital Comics launches and publishes Nexus 1
  
• Mar 1981: X-Men 143- Final Claremont/Byrne
  
• Mar 1981: Dazzler 1- First direct-sales-only for an ongoing series
  
• Mar 1981: Bizarre Adventures starts
  
• Mar 1981: Captain Canuck is cancelled
  
• May 1981: Eclipse Magazine starts
  
• June 1981: The Hulk magazine ends
  
• Jul 1981: Fantastic Four 232 - Byrne takes over FF writing/art duties.
  
• Aug 1981: Rogue debuts
  
• Aug 1981: Marvel Premiere ends
  
• Nov 1981: Captain Victory 1- First Pacific Comics issue, direct-only publisher
  
• 1981: Marvel cancels many of its reprint titles, including MGC, AA, TTA, MSA, etc.
  
• 1981: Stan Lee moves to California to head Marvel TV/movie properties, leaving Jim Shooter in charge
  
• Jan 1982: Comico Comics founded: publishes Comico Primer #1.
  
• Feb 1982: Comico Primer #2 introduces the character Grendel (Hunter Rose) by Matt Wagner.
  
• March 1982: Warrior Magazine #1 (Marvelman, V for Vendetta)
  
• May 1982: Saga of the Swamp Thing #1
  
• June 1982: G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero #1
  
• June 1982: Marvel Super-Hero Contest of Champions #1 (first Marvel mini-series, precursor to Secret Wars)
  
• Sept 1982: Love and Rockets debuts
  
• Sept 1982: Wolverine Mini #1
  
• 1982: Harvey Comics, Warren Publishing and Spire Comics cease operations
  
• 1982: DC cancels remaining Horror titles
  
• 1982: Start of creator royalties at Marvel and DC
  
• 1982: Steve Geppi founds Diamond
  
• 1982: Marvel introduces Graphic Novel series, including Death of Captain Marvel and X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills.
  
• Dec 1982: New Mutants introduction published in Marvel Graphic Novel #4, leading to a 1983-1991 dedicated title.
  
• Jan 1983: Bill Willingham’s The Elementals introduced as part of backup story of Justice Machine Annual 1 (Texas Comics).
  
• Jan 1983: Albedo Anthropomorphics #0 published by Steven Gallacci.
  
• Feb 1983: The Buyer's Guide to Comics Fandom is acquired by Krause Publications and changes its name to Comics Buyer's Guide.
  
• Mar 1983: Warp published by First Comics, which also is its first comic by this later recognized independent publisher.
  
• May 1983: Jason Todd makes his debut as the second Robin in Detective Comics #526.
  
• Jun 1983: Master of Kung Fu, with issue #125, is cancelled by Marvel.
  
• Jun 1983: Marvel Two-in-One, with issue #100, is cancelled by Marvel (replaced the following month by the new title The Thing).
  
• Jun 1983: Jon Sable published by First Comics.
  
• Jul 1983: First issue of Frank Miller's Ronin limited series published by DC Comics.
  
• Jul 1983: Final issue of Brave and the Bold; also features a preview insert for the new title Batman and the Outsiders.
  
• Jul 1983: Mike Baron’s The Badger #1 published by Capital Comics.
  
• Aug 1983: Alan Moore's "The Bojeffries Saga" starts with Warrior #12, published by Quality Communications (continued through 1986).
  
• Aug 1983: Harris Publications acquired Warren Publishing's company assets (Vampirella, Creepy, Eerie); later gives up Creepy and Eerie.
  
• Sep 1983: With issue #503, DC ceases publishing Adventure Comics, which had been running continuously since November 1938.
  
• Oct 1983: House of Mystery, with issue #321, canceled by DC.
  
• Oct 1983: American Flagg! published by First Comics.
  
• Nov 1983: Walt Simonson makes his debut as writer/artist on Thor with issue #337; introduces Beta Ray Bill.
  
• 1983: DC Comics acquires most of Charlton's superhero characters (includes Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, The Question).
  
• Jan 1984: Alan Moore takes over writing responsibilities for Saga of the Swamp Thing title with issue #20.
  
• May 1984: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 published by Mirage Studios.
  
• May 1984: Marvel launches the Secret Wars; includes the introduction of a Spider-Man black suit in issue #8.
  
• Nov 1984: Albedo Anthropomorphics #2 contains Stan Sakai’s “The Goblin of Adachigahara”, introducing Usagi Yojimbo.
  
• 1984: Antarctic Press, Continuity Comics, Deluxe Comics, Matrix Graphic Series, and Renegade Press launch comic publication.
  

 

Some of the key DC and Marvel events factor into the Copper Age transition.

[Hekla]

I'd agree that X-men still was in the BA post-Byrne, up to when they went into space (160-ish?). It was about this time that Man Kills God Loves came out, which was firmly CA.

[rjrjr]

 

As for DC, Crisis did provide a very natural break between the two Ages, ending many of its long-running series during that event.

 

Yes, it really does. As far as DC is concerned, Crisis provides about as clearcut a break with the past that exists. It really swept away the last of the Bronze and earlier feeling to the entire company....and that's 1985.

 

That's why having Copper end at Superman #75...or even before....really doesn't make much sense. There was nothing *new* that happened in those years...it was just more of the same. In fact, Yeah, ok, there was Valiant and Image....but Image was a direct....and I mean a DIRECT...outgrowth of what had been happening the entire Copper age and before: the exodus of top talent to own their own work. That's really the hallmark of the Copper Age, what separates it from all that happened before, along with acceptance of the Direct market. To say it was "something new" means one doesn't really understand the dynamics of the market at the time.

 

Superman.

 

The rise of the horror/crime/western/romance comics.

 

Revival of the GA superheroes in various forms.

 

The coming of fantasy comics and "socially relevant" comics.

 

The establishment of the Direct market and creator owned work.

 

These were all watershed events, that changed the direction of the entire market in their respective eras.

 

But there's absolutely nothing in the 90's that did that, with the possible exception of the collapse. But even after the collapse, nothing really *changed*...it was just more of the same, only smaller.

 

I think the next major change in the industry will be digital.

 

The case *could* be made for the cultural shift to films and tv, but that doesn't have much to do with the industry itself.

 

 

There was a huge change in comics at the end of the 1990s into the early 2000s. I just don't know what issue in particular you can attribute this shift to though. It was an evolution, not a revolution (like all comic age shifts have been):

 

1) Comic stories became decompressed and they started being written for the trade.

2) Word and thought balloons disappeared from the covers.

3) Many covers became "generic" so they could be adapted to other products.

4) Thought balloons disappeared from the interiors.

5) Editor blurbs disappeared from the interiors.

6) We started getting more "talking" comics instead of action comics.

7) Character costumes changed to be more movie and TV adaptable.

 

Comics today look and read different than their counterparts from the mid 1990s and before. I don't know where you draw the line, but I think it is clear there was a big change in comics that occurred. Unfortunately, it is not as easy to describe the change like the earlier watershed moments you listed, but I believe it exists.

 

Since many writers and artists attribute these changes to influences from how TV and movies are made, I like to think of this as comic's Multimedia Age.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As for DC, Crisis did provide a very natural break between the two Ages, ending many of its long-running series during that event.

 

Yes, it really does. As far as DC is concerned, Crisis provides about as clearcut a break with the past that exists. It really swept away the last of the Bronze and earlier feeling to the entire company....and that's 1985.

 

That's why having Copper end at Superman #75...or even before....really doesn't make much sense. There was nothing *new* that happened in those years...it was just more of the same. In fact, Yeah, ok, there was Valiant and Image....but Image was a direct....and I mean a DIRECT...outgrowth of what had been happening the entire Copper age and before: the exodus of top talent to own their own work. That's really the hallmark of the Copper Age, what separates it from all that happened before, along with acceptance of the Direct market. To say it was "something new" means one doesn't really understand the dynamics of the market at the time.

 

Superman.

 

The rise of the horror/crime/western/romance comics.

 

Revival of the GA superheroes in various forms.

 

The coming of fantasy comics and "socially relevant" comics.

 

The establishment of the Direct market and creator owned work.

 

These were all watershed events, that changed the direction of the entire market in their respective eras.

 

But there's absolutely nothing in the 90's that did that, with the possible exception of the collapse. But even after the collapse, nothing really *changed*...it was just more of the same, only smaller.

 

I think the next major change in the industry will be digital.

 

The case *could* be made for the cultural shift to films and tv, but that doesn't have much to do with the industry itself.

 

 

There was a huge change in comics at the end of the 1990s into the early 2000s. I just don't know what issue in particular you can attribute this shift to though. It was an evolution, not a revolution (like all comic age shifts have been):

 

1) Comic stories became decompressed and they started being written for the trade.

2) Word and thought balloons disappeared from the covers.

3) Many covers became "generic" so they could be adapted to other products.

4) Thought balloons disappeared from the interiors.

5) Editor blurbs disappeared from the interiors.

6) We started getting more "talking" comics instead of action comics.

7) Character costumes changed to be more movie and TV adaptable.

 

Comics today look and read different than their counterparts from the mid 1990s and before. I don't know where you draw the line, but I think it is clear there was a big change in comics that occurred. Unfortunately, it is not as easy to describe the change like the earlier watershed moments you listed, but I believe it exists.

 

Since many writers and artists attribute these changes to influences from how TV and movies are made, I like to think of this as comic's Multimedia Age.

 

The fact that you needed to make 7 points, rather than 1 or 2, really illustrates the problem. All of those together don't constitute much of a change, much less any 1 or 2 of them.

 

All comics shifts have been an evolution, not a revolution? Action Comics #1? Showcase #4?

 

I'd need a lot more specific evidence to convince me that anything significant happened to the industry like you're describing.

[joe_collector]

You can't really apply "Comic Ages" to a licensed property that spans eras like Star Wars did, especially as there were movies and novels still being produced. Too much baggage and contracts to make wholesale changes.

 

X-Men is definitely 141-142, as the "Days of Future Past" provided the basis for a few decades of stories and characters.

 

Amazing Spider-man is a bit tougher, but having been a longtime reader of the book, the moment Peter Parker officially graduated college and left school was a major shift. It also represented the passing of the torch from BA stalwart Ross Andru, and took place from late-78 through most of 1979 (he needed to make up credits over the Summer).

 

By late-79/80, ASM was definitely Copper, highlighted by the first appearance of Black Cat (a *very* important character in Spidey's universe, even today) in ASM 194.

 

My second choice would be Roger Stern taking over the book in (amazingly) January 1982 with ASM 224. This change led the book in a new direction, adding the Hobgoblin as a much-needed arch nemesis, and making Spider-man relevant again.

 

Daredevil is 168, with Frank Miller taking over the writing and introducing Elektra. A distant second would be Daredevil 181, but I feel this is more of a "ASM 121 is to Bronze as DD 181 is to Copper/ pinnacle of the era" type book rather than the beginning of anything.

 

 

[rjrjr]

 

As for DC, Crisis did provide a very natural break between the two Ages, ending many of its long-running series during that event.

 

Yes, it really does. As far as DC is concerned, Crisis provides about as clearcut a break with the past that exists. It really swept away the last of the Bronze and earlier feeling to the entire company....and that's 1985.

 

That's why having Copper end at Superman #75...or even before....really doesn't make much sense. There was nothing *new* that happened in those years...it was just more of the same. In fact, Yeah, ok, there was Valiant and Image....but Image was a direct....and I mean a DIRECT...outgrowth of what had been happening the entire Copper age and before: the exodus of top talent to own their own work. That's really the hallmark of the Copper Age, what separates it from all that happened before, along with acceptance of the Direct market. To say it was "something new" means one doesn't really understand the dynamics of the market at the time.

 

Superman.

 

The rise of the horror/crime/western/romance comics.

 

Revival of the GA superheroes in various forms.

 

The coming of fantasy comics and "socially relevant" comics.

 

The establishment of the Direct market and creator owned work.

 

These were all watershed events, that changed the direction of the entire market in their respective eras.

 

But there's absolutely nothing in the 90's that did that, with the possible exception of the collapse. But even after the collapse, nothing really *changed*...it was just more of the same, only smaller.

 

I think the next major change in the industry will be digital.

 

The case *could* be made for the cultural shift to films and tv, but that doesn't have much to do with the industry itself.

 

 

There was a huge change in comics at the end of the 1990s into the early 2000s. I just don't know what issue in particular you can attribute this shift to though. It was an evolution, not a revolution (like all comic age shifts have been):

 

1) Comic stories became decompressed and they started being written for the trade.

2) Word and thought balloons disappeared from the covers.

3) Many covers became "generic" so they could be adapted to other products.

4) Thought balloons disappeared from the interiors.

5) Editor blurbs disappeared from the interiors.

6) We started getting more "talking" comics instead of action comics.

7) Character costumes changed to be more movie and TV adaptable.

 

Comics today look and read different than their counterparts from the mid 1990s and before. I don't know where you draw the line, but I think it is clear there was a big change in comics that occurred. Unfortunately, it is not as easy to describe the change like the earlier watershed moments you listed, but I believe it exists.

 

Since many writers and artists attribute these changes to influences from how TV and movies are made, I like to think of this as comic's Multimedia Age.

 

The fact that you needed to make 7 points, rather than 1 or 2, really illustrates the problem. All of those together don't constitute much of a change, much less any 1 or 2 of them.

 

All comics shifts have been an evolution, not a revolution? Action Comics #1? Showcase #4?

 

I'd need a lot more specific evidence to convince me that anything significant happened to the industry like you're describing.

 

RMA, read a typical mainstream comic book today from Marvel and DC and read one from the 1980s. There has been a huge change in comics. If you don't see it, then you don't see it. Yes, it is hard to break it down into a quick "sound byte" but the change is there.

[joe_collector]

RMA, read a typical mainstream comic book today from Marvel and DC and read one from the 1980s. There has been a huge change in comics. If you don't see it, then you don't see it. Yes, it is hard to break it down into a quick "sound byte" but the change is there.

 

Of course it has changed, that's obvious, as is the reason why.

 

In the 1990's and 2000's, the comics biz started attracting failed screenwriters, as it had failed novelists previously, who brought their specific craft to the table.

 

Most dialogue disappeared, sequences were extended to give a more visual flair, thought balloons disappeared and were replaced by voice-over, time was compressed so much that some issues took only a few minutes of comic-time from cover to cover, soulful looks and page after page of dialog-free work became the new standard for comics - movie tropes all.

 

They were no longer writing conventional comics, but movie sequences in comic form, which made these books a far quicker read, sometimes to a fault. I can remember reading some USM trades and literally whipping through a few issues in minutes. Soulful stare, return soulful stare, multi-panel pages showing eyes, lips, feet, doors, shadows, MJ backs into the alley, Peter follows, MJ returns, Peter backs up, they embrace, end of issue.

 

This trend only accelerated when superhero movies took off and Marvel/DC/etc. wanted their comics to be "more movie-like", not only to fit the new medium, but also something simplified ("it's got too many words!") and easy-to-read to toss movie executives for potential licensing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

As for DC, Crisis did provide a very natural break between the two Ages, ending many of its long-running series during that event.

 

Yes, it really does. As far as DC is concerned, Crisis provides about as clearcut a break with the past that exists. It really swept away the last of the Bronze and earlier feeling to the entire company....and that's 1985.

 

That's why having Copper end at Superman #75...or even before....really doesn't make much sense. There was nothing *new* that happened in those years...it was just more of the same. In fact, Yeah, ok, there was Valiant and Image....but Image was a direct....and I mean a DIRECT...outgrowth of what had been happening the entire Copper age and before: the exodus of top talent to own their own work. That's really the hallmark of the Copper Age, what separates it from all that happened before, along with acceptance of the Direct market. To say it was "something new" means one doesn't really understand the dynamics of the market at the time.

 

Superman.

 

The rise of the horror/crime/western/romance comics.

 

Revival of the GA superheroes in various forms.

 

The coming of fantasy comics and "socially relevant" comics.

 

The establishment of the Direct market and creator owned work.

 

These were all watershed events, that changed the direction of the entire market in their respective eras.

 

But there's absolutely nothing in the 90's that did that, with the possible exception of the collapse. But even after the collapse, nothing really *changed*...it was just more of the same, only smaller.

 

I think the next major change in the industry will be digital.

 

The case *could* be made for the cultural shift to films and tv, but that doesn't have much to do with the industry itself.

 

 

There was a huge change in comics at the end of the 1990s into the early 2000s. I just don't know what issue in particular you can attribute this shift to though. It was an evolution, not a revolution (like all comic age shifts have been):

 

1) Comic stories became decompressed and they started being written for the trade.

2) Word and thought balloons disappeared from the covers.

3) Many covers became "generic" so they could be adapted to other products.

4) Thought balloons disappeared from the interiors.

5) Editor blurbs disappeared from the interiors.

6) We started getting more "talking" comics instead of action comics.

7) Character costumes changed to be more movie and TV adaptable.

 

Comics today look and read different than their counterparts from the mid 1990s and before. I don't know where you draw the line, but I think it is clear there was a big change in comics that occurred. Unfortunately, it is not as easy to describe the change like the earlier watershed moments you listed, but I believe it exists.

 

Since many writers and artists attribute these changes to influences from how TV and movies are made, I like to think of this as comic's Multimedia Age.

 

The fact that you needed to make 7 points, rather than 1 or 2, really illustrates the problem. All of those together don't constitute much of a change, much less any 1 or 2 of them.

 

All comics shifts have been an evolution, not a revolution? Action Comics #1? Showcase #4?

 

I'd need a lot more specific evidence to convince me that anything significant happened to the industry like you're describing.

 

RMA, read a typical mainstream comic book today from Marvel and DC and read one from the 1980s. There has been a huge change in comics. If you don't see it, then you don't see it. Yes, it is hard to break it down into a quick "sound byte" but the change is there.

 

Of course there's a tremendous difference between a book from the 80's and a book from now. But you're talking about a span of 25-35 years.

 

The problem is, what was the catalyst for that change, when did it happen, and was it "industry altering."

 

Otherwise, it's just gradual advancement, with no significant events to signal a "new era."

[Kir Kanos]

I think one huge change for mainstream comics of the 80s (and before) vs. the modern day - is story decompression. I know that exceptions could be found to extremes. However, so much less text seems to be prevalent modern day comics. I find that I am done reading an individual issue a lot quicker now.

 

I wish I could tie my argument to some Will Eisner or Scott McLeod theory book like Comics and Sequential Art or Understanding Comics about percentages of panel transition types. It seems for the 80s (and before) that it was more common for some story elements to be told "off panel" or simply described via text. Today, more panels seem to be more “action to action” or even “action to intermediate action”. I imagine it would be best for me to review some story telling theory before I say anymore.

 

[comiconxion]

If I think of Copper Age books, G.I. Joe and Contest of Champions (June 1982) clearly belong in that category. So, it had to start before that (or then).

 

I'd vote for either Jan. 1981 or March 1981. You could make the case that Days of Future Past and DD #168 were the last great storylines of the Bronze Age or the first ones that issued in a new age.

 

Regardless, all the Spider-man storylines are much later after the Copper Age had started.

 

I also think of Direct Sales and Dazzler as Copper Age phenoms.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

That's why having Copper end at Superman #75...or even before....really doesn't make much sense. There was nothing *new* that happened in those years...it was just more of the same. In fact, Yeah, ok, there was Valiant and Image....but Image was a direct....and I mean a DIRECT...outgrowth of what had been happening the entire Copper age and before: the exodus of top talent to own their own work. That's really the hallmark of the Copper Age, what separates it from all that happened before, along with acceptance of the Direct market. To say it was "something new" means one doesn't really understand the dynamics of the market at the time.

What is it with you and Superman #75?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

[*]Daredevil (4/64 - 2/11): Miller had been doing art already, but for me it was really when he took over as writer on Issue 168 (1/81) that signifies a new Age on the title.

 

The argument can be made that Elektra was the last great Bronze Age creation. She's ninja (kung fu was big in the BA), she's female (female supers were also a big BA innovation), and the feel of the book is still very "Bronze-ish.

 

I think the real change in the title is #181. After that, DD goes off into la la land, and it really becomes a Copper Age title.

Here's one possibility to consider. Miller would have been in his teens in the early Bronze Age. It could be that Electra was more a reaction to what had been done earlier regarding ninjas/kung fu, and arguably a new generation of creators reacting to what has been done previously, giving a new spin on an old idea, is grounds for a new age.

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

Do you think people twenty years from now will see this upcoming fall as the start of a new age, with both Marvel and DC restructuring their universes? It seems like these will be more definitive changes for both of them.

[Gatsby77]

RMA, read a typical mainstream comic book today from Marvel and DC and read one from the 1980s. There has been a huge change in comics. If you don't see it, then you don't see it. Yes, it is hard to break it down into a quick "sound byte" but the change is there.

 

Of course it has changed, that's obvious, as is the reason why.

 

In the 1990's and 2000's, the comics biz started attracting failed screenwriters, as it had failed novelists previously, who brought their specific craft to the table.

 

Most dialogue disappeared, sequences were extended to give a more visual flair, thought balloons disappeared and were replaced by voice-over, time was compressed so much that some issues took only a few minutes of comic-time from cover to cover, soulful looks and page after page of dialog-free work became the new standard for comics - movie tropes all.

 

They were no longer writing conventional comics, but movie sequences in comic form, which made these books a far quicker read, sometimes to a fault. I can remember reading some USM trades and literally whipping through a few issues in minutes. Soulful stare, return soulful stare, multi-panel pages showing eyes, lips, feet, doors, shadows, MJ backs into the alley, Peter follows, MJ returns, Peter backs up, they embrace, end of issue.

 

This trend only accelerated when superhero movies took off and Marvel/DC/etc. wanted their comics to be "more movie-like", not only to fit the new medium, but also something simplified ("it's got too many words!") and easy-to-read to toss movie executives for potential licensing.

 

This is dead-on.

 

My favorite example of this is Y: The Last Man (2002).

 

Issue # 1 is (exceedingly well) written precisely like a storyboarded screenplay, with the camera (pages) cutting among different characters and situations to depict events occurring around the world near simultaneously.

 

Also, as Suzanne Collins did with the chapters of The Hunger Games, Wood manages to end nearly every issue of Y with a cliffhanger. That's _really_ hard to do consistently in a compelling way, in novels or in comics.

[rjpb]

I'm curious, when did Marvel start with the the multiple earths and different versions of their characters existing in different continuities? Not that it meant much to the medium outside the company, but it does seem a break from the earlier model of all of Marvel's history ( including the Golden Age) somehow fitting into a single continuity ( although with retcons), unlike DC, which decided early on that the GA DC world was separate from the SA one.

[divad]

Good discussion. (thumbs u