Do new comic readers think much or even care about the 80's stories

[inovrmihd]

I am sure this has been discussed in countless threads, but I am not sure it has ever been discussed explicitly. The Byrne run on the X-Men, particularly the Dark Phoenix saga, and Miller's run on Daredevil, particularly those stories involving Electra, command huge prices because they were considered some of the best comics ever produced to that point (my, and obviously a lot of other people's opinion). I am just wondering if people who started reading comics, the superhero stuff to make it fair, even care or think much about this stuff,and I am talking about people who went back and read these comics. Anyone who reads the Dark Phoenix story line knows she's coming back to life, same with Electra, but forget that for the moment. How does the art, story lines, dialog, etc. stand up to the best of the last ten years? My guess is objectively it is not as good. My guess is that most people with no nostalgia for the period who went back and read comics from the 60's to the present would say is it's better than what came before, but not as good as the best of the current period. I would like to get other people's thoughts as I am only an occasional reader of new comics. My brother however has been reading since the 80's and that is his opinion.

[vodou]

I dropped out of comics almost 100% when Marvel rebooted the core hero titles with the Return of the Image guys (1995). Already on my way out the door anyway, that move killed it for me with just a few exceptions (100 Bullets and similar) since. Was never much into DC.

 

My question, similar to the OP but a bit different is, how bad did Marvel kill the long-term investment prospects of our nostalgic comic collections and (relevant to this sub-board) original art from the 80s by rebooting the core titles to new #1 issues in 1995, a trend that seems to be happening every two to three years ever since? Seeing Avengers, FF, Cap, Iron Man, etc all go back to #1 (and a super-shiny look too) was part of why I walked away, no more really long runs anymore. Hardly a sense of history, acknowledgement of what came before. Like one day we all wake up and "declare" we're newborns again instead turning age 'whatever' sometime this year or next. Comic collectors that started post-1995, what do you think (and or collect??) of those really long original runs that came first. Do you even care of just let the rich old guys have them and look forward instead? Anybody else?

[delekkerste]

I think as far as mainstream superhero comics go, I'm sure that almost everyone here (including myself) would agree that the best stuff from the '80s (like Claremont/Byrne X-Men, Miller DD, Simonson Thor, Wolfman/Perez NTT, etc.) trumps the best of the past 10 years (for me, only Brubaker's Captain America and the Bendis/Maleev DD run really compare to the best of the '80s). But, that's largely due to the fact that this is what we grew up with, and hardly anyone here still picks up new superhero books on a regular basis.

 

That said, I know that younger collectors than I appreciate Jim Lee's X-Men and McSpidey more than the Paul Smith and JRJR X-Men and Roger Stern/Ron Frenz ASM I grew up with. And, people who still pick up new books regularly these days probably prefer the more cinematic, decompressed storytelling of the current books, which aren't necessarily tied down by convention or continuity like the older stories were. If you go to your LCS and ask one of their regular hold box patrons, you may get a very different answer from any response you'll get here.

 

If you're talking about non-mainstream books, though, I'm sure a lot more people would be on board saying that the best of the past decade (e.g., Y the Last Man, Walking Dead, Fatale, etc.) trumps the best of the '80s.

[Nexus]

"Do new comic readers think much or even care about the 80's stories?"

 

YES.

 

WATCHMEN, V FOR VENDETTA, DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, KILLING JOKE, BATMAN:YEAR ONE are all STILL bestsellers for DC. There is a new audience for these works every day.

 

The Marvel stuff? Not so much...which I pin on management's absolute failure at marketing the key runs to new readers in the same way DC has been able to.

 

Continuity is way too unwieldy, and intimidating, for newbies to tackle. So why not provide them logical entry points? Every one of us can identify the best arcs of the '80s. And yet, Marvel seemingly has no idea. How are the key DD runs (all the ones that have influenced the Netflix show starting with Miller's stories, especially BORN AGAIN), for example, not front and center in every shop right now? I'm not sure they're even in print, let alone with new trade dress to tie into the show.

 

BORN AGAIN should be an evergreen seller a la YEAR ONE. Maybe not to the same degree, as Batman will always be a more popular character than DD, but I'd be surprised if BA has sold even 5% of Y1. And that's on Marvel.

 

 

 

 

[Nexus]

If you're talking about non-mainstream books, though, I'm sure a lot more people would be on board saying that the best of the past decade (e.g., Y the Last Man, Walking Dead, Fatale, etc.) trumps the best of the '80s.

 

In terms of non-superhero books, yes, the last 10-12 years have been a golden age, creatively speaking. There isn't anyone who can compare to '80s Alan Moore, on an individual level, but overall, the quality is as high as it's been since I started seriously reading comics in the early '80s.

[theflashunc]

Short answer, yes.

 

Long answer, double yes.

 

Marvel in particular did start re-numbering, yes, in the mid-90s and beyond, but the universe never rebooted itself completely until, well, now. So those stories still held weight. Were still "canon" if there is such a thing in comics and, in this joined-comics-in-the-90s readers opinion, aged incredibly well. Dark Phoenix, Simonson's Thor, Miller's Daredevil are all seminal works that are, frankly, timeless in their quality.

 

And that's not even counting the stuff that happened at DC and elsewhere in the period. (TMNT anyone?)

 

The 80s were fertile comics ground, and you'd be hard pressed to find any knowledgeable comics fan -- regardless of the era they first started reading -- that disagrees.

 

Now, that being said, I'll disagree with Gene. Some of the finest work of the last 10 years could go toe to toe with the pinnacle 80s stuff, imo. (Never mind Bendis/Maleev Daredevil is now closer to 20 years old rather than 10...) Hickman's Fantastic Four is an astounding achievement. Waid's Daredevil is the newest and freshest take on the character since, well, Miller did his dark turn on him in the 80s. Brubaker's Cap blows, gosh, just about everything else out of the water.

 

That's not even counting stuff like Morrison's Batman & Robin, which might be the best 15 issues of Batman you'll find anywhere.

 

But that's also the entire history of comics. Look at any era and you'll find good stuff. Great creators are timeless.

 

But back to the OPs point, I don't think the stuff today is better per se. Just different. Course, I started seriously reading in the early 90s, and think Simonson's Thor (save for Stan and Jack's FF) is the greatest run on a book ever. So maybe I am proof that nostalgia doesn't trump all?

 

 

[inovrmihd]

What about the art? Does Byrne X-men (or anything from the 80's) compare with current art? To me it looks amazing. My younger brother doesn't think much of it at all, and I have to admit that I have seen a lot of art starting with Jim Lee, and a bunch of others whose names I forget that are probably more talented. My love of the art is very much nostalgia based. How do those that started later feel about it?

[J.Sid]

"New Comic Readers?"

 

Wait... so you're saying there are new readers at comic shops today who weren't already around reading in the 80s?

[delekkerste]

(Never mind Bendis/Maleev Daredevil is now closer to 20 years old rather than 10...)

 

Well, their collaboration on Daredevil ended in 2006, so I counted it. I also loved Bruce Jones' take on the Hulk, who I have otherwise never cared for as a character. That run ended in 2005 so was right on the cut-off borderline so I didn't mention it.

 

One thing I will say, though, is that even though I agree that there are still very well-told stories these days featuring decades-old, mainstream super-heroes (as we both agree, Brubaker's Cap can stand toe-to-toe with just about anything), I just feel like the newer storylines don't carry the weight as those stories from the 1960s-1980s. Continuity has largely gone away, the readership base is down, things get ret-conned and re-booted all the time...it just doesn't feel like these newer stories "count" like the older ones did. For example, Marvel can turn Flash Thompson into a paraplegic Gulf War vet (as they did, and then he became Venom), but, when Flash appears in a Spidey movie, he's going to be some version of the 1960s character we knew (the popular and slightly thick jock/bully).

 

For older readers and the movie-going audience, almost all of these newer stories might as well be "What If?" stories for most characters (I guess Brubaker's run was so good, though, that it became part of the cinematic universe with the Winter Soldier, but that was the exception). That's why I think the non-mainstream books from the past decade have been so much better than the mainstream books - they are breaking new ground while it's tough to care that much about what happens to Spidey or the X-Men these days, as none of the current stories is going to resonate with me like the seminal stories of the 1960s or the heights they hit in the 1970s and 1980s. Cap and Hulk, I never really cared about growing up, so when Brubaker and Jones came around, those runs stood out for me. Daredevil...Bendis did great work on that title, but Miller will always be tops for me.

[theflashunc]

What about the art? Does Byrne X-men (or anything from the 80's) compare with current art? To me it looks amazing. My younger brother doesn't think much of it at all, and I have to admit that I have seen a lot of art starting with Jim Lee, and a bunch of others whose names I forget that are probably more talented. My love of the art is very much nostalgia based. How do those that started later feel about it?

 

It all comes down to taste. I was the generation after Simonson, Perez et al in terms of their notable work, and I prefer a lot of their work to the 90s artists that are out there.

 

My two favorite artists on books growing up were Paul Ryan's FF -- the DeFalco "Reed is Dead" era -- and Scott Kolins on Johns-era Flash.

 

Did I like Jim Lee's stuff? Of course. Its Jim Lee. But my iconic Superman artist isn't Curt Swan, its Dan Jurgens. So much of this is subjective.

 

And Gene, I'll agree with your point that continuity took a backseat, but I think that was generally a positive move, with a slavish devotion to continuity giving away to a compromise with great storytelling. Retcons happened in those Silver/Bronze age books all the time. I don't see anyone complaining that Simonson wiped away Donald Blake in 337, and he mercifully stayed away awhile. I was at a convention a couple years back when, I think it was Hickman, who was dealing with a questioner asking about why the books weren't more like the FF he read and loved in the 70s. The guy clearly wanted his Marv Wolfman era FF back. Hickman's response -- and I think its a fair one -- is if that's your FF, go read those and enjoy them. The creators out there today are trying to make their own mark and tell their own stories the best way they know how. For me personally, that's been my approach with the Flash. I grew up on that Waid/Johns era, and eventually poured through all the old Gardner Fox/Infantino stuff. The new stuff since Rebirth doesn't appeal to me. So I go read the old stuff and wait around for the day DC gets their head out of their butt.

 

(Which, btw, I would highly, highly recommend Hickman FF. It really is stellar.)

[pinupcartoonguy]

As a child of the '80s, as much as I enjoyed the longer story arcs, there were also some pretty darn good one shot (issue) stories. Is that something they still do in "modern" comics?

 

[AKA Rick]

So what are the TOP 10 titles by writer/artist or story arc's of the 80's, 90's...

 

...Y2k and this current decade?

 

"Civil War"

"Identity Crisis"

"Hush"

 

Beyond those, there were too many supposedly epic crossover universe "events" like "52", "Original Sin", "Infinite Crisis", "One More Day", etc. - - but I never got around to read any of 'em.

[Brian Peck]

Something to be said about the 80's stories that would be a year or longer with the same artist drawing the whole thing. I miss artists being on a series for a few years these days too many of the new artists can't seem to stay on a book for more than 4-5 months and and too many writers create stories which are 6 issues long that will fit into trades. I feel cheated either they pad the story to get to the 6 issues to cut stuff out to meet that number of issues. Used to be the story was as long or short as it needed to be.

[Brian Peck]

For me the stories of the 80's I loved was:

Kraven's Last Hunt

God Loves Man Kills

Korvac Saga

Green Arrow Longbow Hunter

Elektra Saga

Judas Contract (New Teen Titans)

Crisis on Infinite Earths

Kitty's Fairy Tale (ya only one issue but was fun)

[vodou]

My favorite 80s stories (that I remember offhand):

 

-Brood saga (or whatever it's called) in X-Men

-X-Men 151, 152 Hellfire Club body-switch

-Cap 261-263 Ameridroid and Red Skull

-Cap 286-289 Deathlok

immediately followed by Cap depowers to fight Red Skull to death in 300 (and a long reveal of Skull true full autobiography))

-Avengers when Hank turns wife-beater and Janet leaves him, starts dating Tony Stark, Egghead, etc etc. A lotta real life in comics right there, especially for 81-83.

-Wolverine mini

-all Miller DD from Elektra on

-Iron Man armor wars

-Secret Wars (sorry, but that blew me away then, not so much now)

-Contest of the Champions (same as above)

-Mephisto vs. Four Heroes, good times there with John B art!

 

probably tons more, but that's the ones that pop immediately and make me want to go pull the books

[vodou]

Oh shoot..forgot (stupid, stupid me)...anything GROO :)

[pinupcartoonguy]

I'll play:

 

Paul Smith's run on Dr. Strange

Cloak & Dagger stories in Peter Parker

Camelot 3000

Various X-Men Annuals drawn by Art Adams

One shots that I alluded to above, like the Boy Who Collected Spider-Man, The Hercules story during Simonson's Thor Run, various issues of Marvel Fanfare, and I still think the Official Handbooks of the Marvel Universe were pretty darn cool.

[delekkerste]

Something to be said about the 80's stories that would be a year or longer with the same artist drawing the whole thing. I miss artists being on a series for a few years these days too many of the new artists can't seem to stay on a book for more than 4-5 months and and too many writers create stories which are 6 issues long that will fit into trades. I feel cheated either they pad the story to get to the 6 issues to cut stuff out to meet that number of issues. Used to be the story was as long or short as it needed to be.

 

I feel like modern comic storylines are kind of like Chinese food - they taste good going down, but then you're hungry again soon after. The stories for the most part just don't stick with me like the older ones did, and I think a lot of that is due to decompressed storytelling. When you take six issues to tell a story that used to be told in two and put bland, generic covers on all of them, the end product just isn't as memorable as the jam-packed issues of old. If you tell me the issue number of an X-Men, Daredevil or Spider-Man comic from the 1970s or 1980s, chances are that I'll be able to picture what's on the cover and recall what happened in the book from memory.

 

Meanwhile, I read a Spider-Man TPB from 2008 a couple of months ago and I couldn't tell you more than a couple of things about the story. I remember I liked it, but it just didn't stick with me. And, I don't think that's just because I'm older now - a lot of it has to do with the format and storytelling style of today's comics. And, due to what I alluded to earlier - I feel that the best stories for a lot of these characters have already been told, so the newer storylines just don't carry the same weight as the seminal and historic epics of old. That's why I tend to prefer newer titles (e.g., Sex, Southern Bastards, Thief of Thieves, Walking Dead, etc.) when reading new comics these days.

[pinupcartoonguy]

I miss good old-fashioned panels on a page.