Moldoff's Tragic Career as a Pre-Code Horror Artist?

[bronze johnny]

In an interview with Roy Thomas, Shelly Moldoff talked about his new idea for starting a horror genre comic book and how he presented it to Bill Gaines only to later claim that Gaines took It and created EC's horror books. Moldoff would luckily end up with Fawcett where he'd earn his paycheck drawing horror covers and stories- some classic covers that included Worlds of Fear 3 and This Magazine is Haunted 7. Charlton later took over for Fawcett and out the door went Moldoff. Was Moldoff right about Gaines taking his idea for a horror comic? Did Moldoff's run at Fawcett earn him a place at the table for contributions to Pre Code Horror?

 

Or was Moldoff's overall experiences as a precode horror artist tragic in the sense that he could have done more during this period?

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

John

[woowoo]

Hes a great artist. Who knows what he could have done.His Batman stuff is great. Looks like him and Jerry R got the same boat ride?

[Pat Calhoun]

I talked to Shelly about this at length, and while his story is straight - history is bigger than one person's viewpoint. The increased adult readership in the postwar years brought the genres to prominence, making horror comics somewhat inevitable.. And having the idea and making it happen aren't always the same thing. Which doesn't lessen the tragedy of the tale. It's likely that Gaines played it rough, to some extent that's biz... But I got the feeling that the passage of time and warm reaction from his fans helped Sheldon come to some peace about all this.

 

Thanks for asking, and yes the Fawcett work is right up there. Hail Dr Death !!!!!!

 

Pat

 

[markseifert]

It's likely that Gaines played it rough, to some extent that's biz...

 

It's very possible, maybe probable that we're going to come to a re-evaluation of Gaines over time.

 

His succession of industry-developing masterstrokes + standing in the shadow of obvious industry villains in Donenfeld/Liebowitz has kept us from looking at this too carefully.

 

But for example, there apparently exists (I have not seen the original, but this is per Superman: The Complete History) a 3/27/1939 letter from Gaines to Siegel and Shuster directing them what additional content to create for Superman #1.

 

Ten days later, he testified under oath, in a trial to crush Supes' competition, that he had no connection to DC/National aside from being a sales manager for the printer who prints a couple of their comics.

 

Which at the very least, is something that makes you go .

 

But as you say... that was the biz. This is not to say he isn't deserving of immense respect, but Gaines swam with sharks, and those sharks looked to the previous-generation examples of men like Hearst and Munsey who built publishing empires and got crazy rich by being utterly ruthless (and in Hearst's case, his father's son, far beyond ruthless).

 

[edit -- because I am dumb, I am referring to Max rather than Bill here. ]

[adamstrange]

It's likely that Gaines played it rough, to some extent that's biz...

 

It's very possible, maybe probable that we're going to come to a re-evaluation of Gaines over time.

 

His succession of industry-developing masterstrokes + standing in the shadow of obvious industry villains in Donenfeld/Liebowitz has kept us from looking at this too carefully.

 

But for example, there apparently exists (I have not seen the original, but this is per Superman: The Complete History) a 3/27/1939 letter from Gaines to Siegel and Shuster directing them what additional content to create for Superman #1.

 

Ten days later, he testified under oath, in a trial to crush Supes' competition, that he had no connection to DC/National aside from being a sales manager for the printer who prints a couple of their comics.

 

Which at the very least, is something that makes you go .

 

But as you say... that was the biz. This is not to say he isn't deserving of immense respect, but Gaines swam with sharks, and those sharks looked to the previous-generation examples of men like Hearst and Munsey who built publishing empires and got crazy rich by being utterly ruthless (and in Hearst's case, his father's son, far beyond ruthless).

The original poster is discussing Bill Gaines but I think you are referring to actions of Max Gaines.

[rjpb]

Even if Gaines did get the idea from Moldoff, you can't own a genre. ACG was producing horror comics ahead of EC, and plenty of of others followed. What made EC successful and special wasn't the idea of producing horror comics ( even with a host), but the quality of their output.

 

Moldoff does end up producing horror for Fawcett, and while his work is solid, it doesn't stand out from the rest.

[adamstrange]

In an interview with Roy Thomas, Shelly Moldoff talked about his new idea for starting a horror genre comic book and how he presented it to Bill Gaines only to later claim that Gaines took It and created EC's horror books. Moldoff would luckily end up with Fawcett where he'd earn his paycheck drawing horror covers and stories- some classic covers that included Worlds of Fear 3 and This Magazine is Haunted 7. Charlton later took over for Fawcett and out the door went Moldoff. Was Moldoff right about Gaines taking his idea for a horror comic? Did Moldoff's run at Fawcett earn him a place at the table for contributions to Pre Code Horror?

 

Or was Moldoff's overall experiences as a precode horror artist tragic in the sense that he could have done more during this period?

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

John

 

My understanding is that he was more than just an artist for Fawcett and was the packager who supplied the pre-code horror material that Fawcett published. Ultimately he did have a chance to produce the kind of material he wanted.

 

If he had stayed with EC would his horror work for them been as influential as it was when directed by Feldstein and Gaines? Also, it was the profits from their line of horror that enabled the rest of their output to be published.

 

In other words, it might have been better for Moldoff but if it have resulted in a less successful EC with no sci-fi or war or Mad....

 

Worlds of Fear 3

 

 

[Jayman]

I talked to Shelly about this at length, and while his story is straight - history is bigger than one person's viewpoint. The increased adult readership in the postwar years brought the genres to prominence, making horror comics somewhat inevitable.. And having the idea and making it happen aren't always the same thing. Which doesn't lessen the tragedy of the tale. It's likely that Gaines played it rough, to some extent that's biz... But I got the feeling that the passage of time and warm reaction from his fans helped Sheldon come to some peace about all this.

 

Thanks for asking, and yes the Fawcett work is right up there. Hail Dr Death !!!!!!

 

Pat

 

 

I think this says it all...

[bronze johnny]

In an interview with Roy Thomas, Shelly Moldoff talked about his new idea for starting a horror genre comic book and how he presented it to Bill Gaines only to later claim that Gaines took It and created EC's horror books. Moldoff would luckily end up with Fawcett where he'd earn his paycheck drawing horror covers and stories- some classic covers that included Worlds of Fear 3 and This Magazine is Haunted 7. Charlton later took over for Fawcett and out the door went Moldoff. Was Moldoff right about Gaines taking his idea for a horror comic? Did Moldoff's run at Fawcett earn him a place at the table for contributions to Pre Code Horror?

 

Or was Moldoff's overall experiences as a precode horror artist tragic in the sense that he could have done more during this period?

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

John

 

My understanding is that he was more than just an artist for Fawcett and was the packager who supplied the pre-code horror material that Fawcett published. Ultimately he did have a chance to produce the kind of material he wanted.

 

If he had stayed with EC would his horror work for them been as influential as it was when directed by Feldstein and Gaines? Also, it was the profits from their line of horror that enabled the rest of their output to be published.

 

In other words, it might have been better for Moldoff but if it have resulted in a less successful EC with no sci-fi or war or Mad....

 

Worlds of Fear 3

 

 

One thing to consider is how Fawcett lacked the kind of artists that EC had. Evans went over to EC shortly after Fawcett started (Gaines again) and Bailey didn't find his way until leaving (Fawcett). Perhaps the lack of artists contributes to Moldoff's more successful role at Fawcett? Did working at Fawcett ease things for Moldoff?

[adamstrange]

As the "packager" he chose the write/artists that he wanted to work with and was responsible for paying them. He delivered finished issues to Fawcett for printing so I'm not aware he was restricted by who was already drawing for Fawcett.

[Sqeggs]

I don't think the idea of starting a horror comic is so strikingly original that it would never have otherwise been thought of. There were at least horror elements in comics from the very early days. Look at Cap 17.

 

With practically every other genre being tried, it's hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have had their run even if Moldoff hadn't made the suggestion to Gaines.

[rjpb]

I don't think the idea of starting a horror comic is so strikingly original that it would never have otherwise been thought of. There were at least horror elements in comics from the very early days. Look at Cap 17.

 

With practically every other genre being tried, it's hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have had their run even if Moldoff hadn't made the suggestion to Gaines.

 

Comics were borrowing cover imagery from the "horror" pulps from 1939 on, and while pulps themselves were dying out by the late 40s, the genres they spawned were obviously an influence on the ideas for broadening appeal of comic books as the ear of superhero dominance seemed to wind down. Horror had also been a staple in the stories as well. As you say, it would be hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have existed one way or another.

[markseifert]

The original poster is discussing Bill Gaines but I think you are referring to actions of Max Gaines.

 

Yep, dumb oversight on my part. Had Moon Girl on my mind today.

[Ameri]

This interview is from the Tales Of Terror Compendium from Fantagraphics:

 

 

 

 

 

[markseifert]

As you say, it would be hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have existed one way or another.

 

Plus, what's the timeline of this supposed to be...?

 

I'm sure I'm missing stuff, but you've got:

 

Fall 1948 -- Adventures into the Unknown

Fall 1948 -- Moon Girl #5 -- horror by Moldoff and Johnny Craig. So presumably the pitch to Fawcett and then EC came around this time. Unless there's a book I'm not thinking of.

 

May 1949 -- Amazing Mysteries #32 (Atlas)

Aug 1949 -- Marvel Tales #93

 

Dec 1949 -- Suspense #1 (Atlas)

Dec 1949 -- Crime Patrol #15 -- Feldstein horror, Crypt-Keeper.

Dec 1949 -- War Against Crime #10 -- Horror

 

This Magazine is Haunted #1 -- Oct 1951 -- Fawcett Moldoff horror

 

****

 

So, Moldoff's statement seems to be that he pitched to Fawcett, they passed, he pitched to EC, had a deal in place, which Bill Gaines reneged on when the time came.

 

Could be, but you have to wonder why he went to Fawcett first -- he was getting regular work from EC up to that point and not that much from Fawcett, which obviously had a squeaky-clean rep anyway. So, that's odd.

 

Still could be, but there was certainly a fair bit of horror out by the time EC got into it on an ongoing basis.

 

 

[BOOT]

Yellowjacket #7 from 1946 featured "Tales of Terror" complete with host the "Ancient Witch"... (scans courtesy of Digital Comic Museum)

[sacentaur]

Fascinating... (Feldstein did a story in Crypt of Terror 18 about an avenging hand, too).

[jimbo_707]

I don't think the idea of starting a horror comic is so strikingly original that it would never have otherwise been thought of. There were at least horror elements in comics from the very early days. Look at Cap 17.

 

With practically every other genre being tried, it's hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have had their run even if Moldoff hadn't made the suggestion to Gaines.

 

Comics were borrowing cover imagery from the "horror" pulps from 1939 on, and while pulps themselves were dying out by the late 40s, the genres they spawned were obviously an influence on the ideas for broadening appeal of comic books as the ear of superhero dominance seemed to wind down. Horror had also been a staple in the stories as well. As you say, it would be hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have existed one way or another.

I agree. Things were trending towards a blossoming of the horror genre, with or without any particular individual. In his essay on Shakespeare, Emerson wrote that a great man "finds himself in the river of the thoughts and events, forced onward by the ideas and necessities of his contemporaries. He stands where all the eyes of men look one way, and their hands all point in the direction in which he should go."

[bronze johnny]

I don't think the idea of starting a horror comic is so strikingly original that it would never have otherwise been thought of. There were at least horror elements in comics from the very early days. Look at Cap 17.

 

With practically every other genre being tried, it's hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have had their run even if Moldoff hadn't made the suggestion to Gaines.

 

Comics were borrowing cover imagery from the "horror" pulps from 1939 on, and while pulps themselves were dying out by the late 40s, the genres they spawned were obviously an influence on the ideas for broadening appeal of comic books as the ear of superhero dominance seemed to wind down. Horror had also been a staple in the stories as well. As you say, it would be hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have existed one way or another.

I agree. Things were trending towards a blossoming of the horror genre, with or without any particular individual. In his essay on Shakespeare, Emerson wrote that a great man "finds himself in the river of the thoughts and events, forced onward by the ideas and necessities of his contemporaries. He stands where all the eyes of men look one way, and their hands all point in the direction in which he should go."

 

That's contrary to what Gaines believed and told Kefauver and his colleagues in 1954.

[jimbo_707]

I don't think the idea of starting a horror comic is so strikingly original that it would never have otherwise been thought of. There were at least horror elements in comics from the very early days. Look at Cap 17.

 

With practically every other genre being tried, it's hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have had their run even if Moldoff hadn't made the suggestion to Gaines.

 

Comics were borrowing cover imagery from the "horror" pulps from 1939 on, and while pulps themselves were dying out by the late 40s, the genres they spawned were obviously an influence on the ideas for broadening appeal of comic books as the ear of superhero dominance seemed to wind down. Horror had also been a staple in the stories as well. As you say, it would be hard to believe horror comics wouldn't have existed one way or another.

I agree. Things were trending towards a blossoming of the horror genre, with or without any particular individual. In his essay on Shakespeare, Emerson wrote that a great man "finds himself in the river of the thoughts and events, forced onward by the ideas and necessities of his contemporaries. He stands where all the eyes of men look one way, and their hands all point in the direction in which he should go."

 

That's contrary to what Gaines believed and told Kefauver and his colleagues in 1954.

Interesting. Do you have the quote? I'd be curious to know what Gaines had to say.