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MARVEL'S ORIGINAL ART VAULT CRACKED - THE STORY

Started by DESTRO-migration,

59 posts in this topic

DoubleCovaBrotha

DoubleCovaBrotha

Posted
Posted
Check out the book "Tales To Astonish" by Ronin Ro - it's basically a bio of Jack Kirby. Lots of stories about Kirby's original art...accounts of him at one point getting much of his art back from Marvel, and it just sitting around his house in big stacks. He'd give it away to visitors (mostly fans who figured out where he lived), to friends of his children, etc. Also stories about rampant theft at Marvel, mostly by underpaid staffers.

 

Underpaid staffers at Marvel.... 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

That's a long list.

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143ksk

143ksk

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Posted
Who really acres about the cover to Millie the Model?

 

hi.gif Some of them are quite beautiful - especially the pre # 154 issues.

 

Yeah, if there are any of the Decarlo Millie covers from the late '50s, I think the demand for those would result in some pretty high prices (OK, maybe not on a par with a Ditko Spidey cover or anything, but still...)

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Mephisto

Mephisto

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Outside chance that the Nov/74 Hulk 181 pages may still exist as the article covers art contents from 1960 to 1974 cut off. angel.gif

 

Awhile back I thought I remember coming across a site in which someone had the entire art work for 181 posted on a site except for the cover, because I remember emailing and asking them if they also had the cover, but they didn't. I can't remember what site or who the person was. Most of the pages from issue 180 are on this site. http://www.hulkart.com/hulk.html

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garthgantu

garthgantu

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i always saw stan lee as 'the man' in my head, positive, good guy and a legend...this article makes him seem a bit...not so cool...

 

anyone have any stories???

 

If you read "Tales To Astonish" by Ronin Ro, you'll have quite a different picture of Stan the Man... as just one nugget, he got the job at Timely because he was the cousin of the publisher's wife. He spent quite a few years as a gofer for Simon and Kirby. He frequently did nothing more for issues of Hulk, Thor, FF, etc. than give the artist a general direction in which to take the story...then Stan would take all the writing credit no matter how little he actually did. Of the many hundreds of stories Kirby did for Marvel during the SA, I don't think he ever got writing credit. Ever.

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dem1138

dem1138

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First of all, that book by Ronin Ro is not that good and poorly written. Men of Tomorrow by Gerard Jones, however, is phenomenal. Secondly, your response re: Stan is skewed.

It is true that Stan was given the job because Goodman was a relative, but Timely, at the time, basically consisted of Simon, Kirby, and their artistic friends who could churn out artwork as fast as possible. Stan was an independent contractor for Timely and got paid as a writer and editor but not right away. Initially, he was the office boy. He was extremely loyal and always took the steady paycheck over any entrepreneurial endeavors. Once he rose in responsibility, he, and he alone, developed the Marvel style. Realize that the Marvel office in 1961 was basically Stan. Ditko and Kirby could send the work in. The "Mighty Marvel Bullpen" was fiction - created by Stan to give an image - just like everything else Stan did. If you thought you were buying comics from one guy(Stan) and a few of his artist friends, it wouldn't be that interesting, so Stan invented this "MIGHTY MARVEL" ethos that made the reader want to become a part of it. It is true that Stan did little other than throw a concept at the artist and they drew the story - but then he filled in the dialogue. No, he never gave credit to anyone else for the writing of the story - but he was trying to feed his family as well. No one was getting rich doing this until the 80s. Thirdly, as Ronin Ro alludes to, Kirby was a horrible writer whose skills diminished as the years went on. Ro alludes to Kirby having the ideas that Lucas used for Star Wars, etc. but it was his ideas that were fascinating, not his writing abilities. Stan deserves the credit in the long term because he was the loyal stooge - the 'company man' - for all of those years. He stuck through with that company through thick and thin - from old to new - each time Marvel was bought - it was done under the contingency that Stan HAD to be part of the deal - and each time - like a stooge - he signed a contract without strongarming the negotiating. He made Marvel what it is today and there is no question about that. He rightly deserves his million dollar salary and every penny of the 10% movie profits as well. Kirby and everyone else took the next best deal as soon as it came because they felt destined for more money and greater things -only Stan stayed to anchor the ship. And when Kirby was desperate for work, Stan was more than happy to rehire him in the 70s. To me, Stan Lee is a testament to a bygone era, like a ballplayer who spends his entire career with the same team even though he could have potential gone to another team to win a title.

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drice6900

drice6900

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If you read "Tales To Astonish" by Ronin Ro, you'll have quite a different picture of Stan the Man... as just one nugget, he got the job at Timely because he was the cousin of the publisher's wife. He spent quite a few years as a gofer for Simon and Kirby. He frequently did nothing more for issues of Hulk, Thor, FF, etc. than give the artist a general direction in which to take the story...then Stan would take all the writing credit no matter how little he actually did. Of the many hundreds of stories Kirby did for Marvel during the SA, I don't think he ever got writing credit. Ever.

 

You know, I like Kirby and respect what he did for comics, but after reading the stuff he put out that he did get a writing credit on, I would have to say the comments in TTA are great exagerated.

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garthgantu

garthgantu

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Well, it's Kirby's bio, whaddaya expect?

 

I'd say Kirby's contributions are in some ways as underappreciated as Stan Lee's are overappreciated. Sure, the storylines Jack came up with for DC were in some cases pretty lame, but in his defense he was asked to do a lot of titles he didn't really want to do, or didn't mind starting, assuming they'd be handed off to other artists/writers after issue 1 or 2 (they weren't).

 

Stan took credit for other people's work on a daily basis, and continues to do so IMHO. Was he extremely instrumental in the establishment of Marvel as THE comic company of the '60s and '70s? Absolutely. Was he so overwhelmingly responsible for every title that he deserved the "Stan Lee Presents" tagline in every Marvel comic, even the ones he had nothing to do with? Methinks not.

 

As for the book being poorly written, I disagree. It's poorly written if you dispute some of Ro's accounts of things that happened 30, 40, 60 years ago. But most of those accounts are based on interviews with Joe Simon, Will Eisner, Marv Wolfman, etc. etc. so I don't think you can necessarily blame Ro for that. Overall, I thought it was a pretty good, 'real-world' counterpart to "Kavalier and Clay."

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krazykat-migration

krazykat-migration

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KK,

 

Ive heard/ or seen of the 11, 28, 29, 30, 40, 41, 42, 44, 45 46, 47,48, 50, 53, 55, 59, & 61 (Thats all the Large Art -- the stuff that commands the highest premium) existing !!!!

 

Do you know what prices are going for a Amazing Spiderman cover? I saw the Amazing Spiderman 166 cover sell in the recent Heritage auction for $15,000. I imagine that a nice early ditko or romita would go for alot? huh?

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Aman619

Aman619

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First of all, that book by Ronin Ro is not that good and poorly written. Men of Tomorrow by Gerard Jones, however, is phenomenal. Secondly, your response re: Stan is skewed.

It is true that Stan was given the job because Goodman was a relative, but Timely, at the time, basically consisted of Simon, Kirby, and their artistic friends who could churn out artwork as fast as possible. Stan was an independent contractor for Timely and got paid as a writer and editor but not right away. Initially, he was the office boy. He was extremely loyal and always took the steady paycheck over any entrepreneurial endeavors. Once he rose in responsibility, he, and he alone, developed the Marvel style. Realize that the Marvel office in 1961 was basically Stan. Ditko and Kirby could send the work in. The "Mighty Marvel Bullpen" was fiction - created by Stan to give an image - just like everything else Stan did. If you thought you were buying comics from one guy(Stan) and a few of his artist friends, it wouldn't be that interesting, so Stan invented this "MIGHTY MARVEL" ethos that made the reader want to become a part of it. It is true that Stan did little other than throw a concept at the artist and they drew the story - but then he filled in the dialogue. No, he never gave credit to anyone else for the writing of the story - but he was trying to feed his family as well. No one was getting rich doing this until the 80s. Thirdly, as Ronin Ro alludes to, Kirby was a horrible writer whose skills diminished as the years went on. Ro alludes to Kirby having the ideas that Lucas used for Star Wars, etc. but it was his ideas that were fascinating, not his writing abilities. Stan deserves the credit in the long term because he was the loyal stooge - the 'company man' - for all of those years. He stuck through with that company through thick and thin - from old to new - each time Marvel was bought - it was done under the contingency that Stan HAD to be part of the deal - and each time - like a stooge - he signed a contract without strongarming the negotiating. He made Marvel what it is today and there is no question about that. He rightly deserves his million dollar salary and every penny of the 10% movie profits as well. Kirby and everyone else took the next best deal as soon as it came because they felt destined for more money and greater things -only Stan stayed to anchor the ship. And when Kirby was desperate for work, Stan was more than happy to rehire him in the 70s. To me, Stan Lee is a testament to a bygone era, like a ballplayer who spends his entire career with the same team even though he could have potential gone to another team to win a title.

 

nice post dem!! welcome to the boards!!

 

the Stan and Jack/Steve story is mythic in its aspects of ego, art and ethics in the comics wild wild west!! Im with you especially in the Stan as Company man approach. He stayed with Marvel for 63 years. and so what if he got his start from his uncle? Nearly everybody gets started by an acquaintance, family or friend nudges the door open for them. Its what you do once youre inside that counts.

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Aman619

Aman619

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those lists are awesome... it literally tells us ALL the Marvel artwork that survived. Im sure some of the issue smissing off the list were "misplaced" before making it to th ewarehouse for one rteason or another (lost or damaged at the printer, lost in shipping, sent to Marvel and lost, or, of course given away or stolen...

 

but this list includes many pieces we have all seen for sale at one time or another, so, IMO, if it aint on this list, you can pretty much forget about looking for it!! I know the K man had many full Pre-Hero full stories at his uptown NYC store way back when...

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DESTRO-migration

DESTRO-migration

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those lists are awesome... it literally tells us ALL the Marvel artwork that survived. Im sure some of the issue smissing off the list were "misplaced" before making it to th ewarehouse for one rteason or another (lost or damaged at the printer, lost in shipping, sent to Marvel and lost, or, of course given away or stolen...

 

but this list includes many pieces we have all seen for sale at one time or another, so, IMO, if it aint on this list, you can pretty much forget about looking for it!! I know the K man had many full Pre-Hero full stories at his uptown NYC store way back when...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hey,..

 

Besides the K-man,..a joe by the name of Shooter also took a nice swath according to the legend,...so bear that in mind. I tend to think more is out there than most people would think. It is only a matter of time before this stuff surfaces. Man is not immortal. And to quote Roddy McDowell in Star Trek 6 (?)........ "Time is the fire in which man burns".

 

Curious,...were you not interested in oa,...why did you not make an offer to buy some?,...did he simply show you stuff,...or did he merely tell you what he had? ,...

 

I am only 24 so I never had much of a chance but if I had been around,..I would have gone to a bank and begged for money to buy this stuff ! Comics are fools gold,..oa is the real thing !!!!

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scottish

scottish

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Posted

 

those lists are awesome... it literally tells us ALL the Marvel artwork that survived. Im sure some of the issue smissing off the list were "misplaced" before making it to th ewarehouse for one rteason or another (lost or damaged at the printer, lost in shipping, sent to Marvel and lost, or, of course given away or stolen...

 

but this list includes many pieces we have all seen for sale at one time or another, so, IMO, if it aint on this list, you can pretty much forget about looking for it!! I know the K man had many full Pre-Hero full stories at his uptown NYC store way back when...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hey,..

 

Besides the K-man,..a joe by the name of Shooter also took a nice swath according to the legend,...so bear that in mind. I tend to think more is out there than most people would think. It is only a matter of time before this stuff surfaces. Man is not immortal. And to quote Roddy McDowell in Star Trek 6 (?)........ "Time is the fire in which man burns".

 

Curious,...were you not interested in oa,...why did you not make an offer to buy some?,...did he simply show you stuff,...or did he merely tell you what he had? ,...

 

I am only 24 so I never had much of a chance but if I had been around,..I would have gone to a bank and begged for money to buy this stuff ! Comics are fools gold,..oa is the real thing !!!!

 

Not to get off-topic here, but who did Roddy McDowell play in Star Trek VI??? I don't remember him at all. frown.gifwink.gif

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Norrin_Radd

Norrin_Radd

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And to quote Roddy McDowell in Star Trek 6 (?)........ "Time is the fire in which man burns".

 

Not to get off-topic here, but who did Roddy McDowell play in Star Trek VI??? I don't remember him at all. frown.gifwink.gif

No. makepoint.gif

 

He was in "The Undiscovered Country" (first new TNG movie).

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scottish

scottish

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Posted
And to quote Roddy McDowell in Star Trek 6 (?)........ "Time is the fire in which man burns".

 

Not to get off-topic here, but who did Roddy McDowell play in Star Trek VI??? I don't remember him at all. frown.gifwink.gif

No. makepoint.gif

 

He was in "The Undiscovered Country" (first new TNG movie).

 

Okay Star Trek VI is subtitled 'The Undiscovered Country' wink.gif It was the LAST of the 'original' ST crew (not counting 'Generations' - which is the FIRST of the TNG movies).

 

Just looked up Roddy McDowell on imdb.com and don't see him for any credit with any Star Trek movie or series...you guys sure you're not thinking of 'Christopher Plummer?'

 

Not being picky here just curious. wink.gif

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