Overstreet #45?

[kimik]

Sites like GPA are good for pricing keys or hot new flavor-of-the-month-movie-or-tv-speculative-plays, while the OSPG is still a decent guidelind for common or less popular titles which make up 99% of the available material for collectors. The vast majority of comics are not appreciating year by year and the guide is more relevant for those books.

[BarryAllen]

Sites like GPA are good for pricing keys or hot new flavor-of-the-month-movie-or-tv-speculative-plays, while the OSPG is still a decent guidelind for common or less popular titles which make up 99% of the available material for collectors. The vast majority of comics are not appreciating year by year and the guide is more relevant for those books.

 

To raw books:

 

I disagree, the guide is a "false truth" that the hobby in general uses to justify the existence of OSPG, particularly older collectors.

 

99% of material is not priced at or with guide, that would be physically improbable. No one has time to look through 99% of the books that are sold, truly assess an accurate grade (approximate grade is close enough), look up guide and then price - there truly isn't enough time in the day.

 

The vast majority of books sold in the hobby are out of $0.25, $0.50, $1, $2, $5 and even $10 boxes (or randomly selected denomination in the middle if a dealer feels like being "different"). Or they are priced at similar even/equal denominations in boxes grouped by title/character/theme as well. Criteria for placement in each of the boxes is made in large swipes either based on "acquisition average cost" and as you go up in value based on "popular characters," "perceived but not fully assessed higher-graded older books," "currently hot characters" and "minor cool covers, artists or key stories." These books aren't individually priced at guide and certainly do not all equal one another in their respective boxes.

 

Even wall books in most comic shops (or at cons) are usually well over guide. Reasoning when you ask runs the gambit of: "can't use guide on key books (even though it is a minor key on its best day)" or "the guide isn't accurate for everything" and "the guide is just a starting point" or "insert random reason guide is not accurate." Price negotiation rarely comes down to guide at this point, it comes down to what position the dealer is in and if you can "bundle" or use other negotiation/buying techniques.

 

In reality the guide is not used in day to day transactions nor is it used to start the pricing process on average. There are far too many books and too little time for it to be practical.

 

We just keep perpetuating the concept of the "guide" as it holds some small group attributed "theistic" value in the hobby that is nearly unsubstantiated by the smallest number of actual transactions.

 

:shrug:

 

For slabbed books, GPA and a combination of other sales data is used to price. Many times as a starting point and then marked up (or rarely down) for "insert random reason here."

[StuporMan]

Someone out there should do something revolutionary. If only there were a resource of comic market experts to come up with an idea of something better and start their own business

 

PM me if you're serious...

[kimik]

Sites like GPA are good for pricing keys or hot new flavor-of-the-month-movie-or-tv-speculative-plays, while the OSPG is still a decent guidelind for common or less popular titles which make up 99% of the available material for collectors. The vast majority of comics are not appreciating year by year and the guide is more relevant for those books.

 

To raw books:

 

I disagree, the guide is a "false truth" that the hobby in general uses to justify the existence of OSPG, particularly older collectors.

 

99% of material is not priced at or with guide, that would be physically improbable. No one has time to look through 99% of the books that are sold, truly assess an accurate grade (approximate grade is close enough), look up guide and then price - there truly isn't enough time in the day.

 

The vast majority of books sold in the hobby are out of $0.25, $0.50, $1, $2, $5 and even $10 boxes (or randomly selected denomination in the middle if a dealer feels like being "different"). Or they are priced at similar even/equal denominations in boxes grouped by title/character/theme as well. Criteria for placement in each of the boxes is made in large swipes either based on "acquisition average cost" and as you go up in value based on "popular characters," "perceived but not fully assessed higher-graded older books," "currently hot characters" and "minor cool covers, artists or key stories." These books aren't individually priced at guide and certainly do not all equal one another in their respective boxes.

 

Even wall books in most comic shops (or at cons) are usually well over guide. Reasoning when you ask runs the gambit of: "can't use guide on key books (even though it is a minor key on its best day)" or "the guide isn't accurate for everything" and "the guide is just a starting point" or "insert random reason guide is not accurate." Price negotiation rarely comes down to guide at this point, it comes down to what position the dealer is in and if you can "bundle" or use other negotiation/buying techniques.

 

In reality the guide is not used in day to day transactions nor is it used to start the pricing process on average. There are far too many books and too little time for it to be practical.

 

We just keep perpetuating the concept of the "guide" as it holds some small group attributed "theistic" value in the hobby that is nearly unsubstantiated by the smallest number of actual transactions.

 

:shrug:

 

For slabbed books, GPA and a combination of other sales data is used to price. Many times as a starting point and then marked up (or rarely down) for "insert random reason here."

 

Whether you like it or not, OSPG is still used in day to day transactions at cons or your LCS on raw books. Is it accurate? Not really, but when any of the LCSs in town have a raw collection shopped to them (or when I sell GA/SA/BA stock that I am too lazy to take to shows ) they grade and price the better stuff based on OSPG then offer the seller a percentage of guide value for the collection. I do the same when I buy collections. The simple reason - most collectors with older books will use the OSPG as a means to estimate the value of their collection.

 

WRT wall books, not all LCSs gouge on them. The ones I buy books from locally will use OSPG (+ exchange rate on hotter books in some cases), and if they mark up the keys it will just be to the going rate. However the vast majority of their books are sitting in the bins or on the walls priced at OSPG (and in $CDN guide which turns out to be a great deal on better books, especially during the 50% off sales twice a year).

 

Slabs are a different beast since GPA is the way to go, but you can still buy collections with slabbed books in them priced at OSPG instead of GPA.

[jimjum12]

Sites like GPA are good for pricing keys or hot new flavor-of-the-month-movie-or-tv-speculative-plays, while the OSPG is still a decent guidelind for common or less popular titles which make up 99% of the available material for collectors. The vast majority of comics are not appreciating year by year and the guide is more relevant for those books.

 

To raw books:

 

I disagree, the guide is a "false truth" that the hobby in general uses to justify the existence of OSPG, particularly older collectors.

 

99% of material is not priced at or with guide, that would be physically improbable. No one has time to look through 99% of the books that are sold, truly assess an accurate grade (approximate grade is close enough), look up guide and then price - there truly isn't enough time in the day.

 

The vast majority of books sold in the hobby are out of $0.25, $0.50, $1, $2, $5 and even $10 boxes (or randomly selected denomination in the middle if a dealer feels like being "different"). Or they are priced at similar even/equal denominations in boxes grouped by title/character/theme as well. Criteria for placement in each of the boxes is made in large swipes either based on "acquisition average cost" and as you go up in value based on "popular characters," "perceived but not fully assessed higher-graded older books," "currently hot characters" and "minor cool covers, artists or key stories." These books aren't individually priced at guide and certainly do not all equal one another in their respective boxes.

 

Even wall books in most comic shops (or at cons) are usually well over guide. Reasoning when you ask runs the gambit of: "can't use guide on key books (even though it is a minor key on its best day)" or "the guide isn't accurate for everything" and "the guide is just a starting point" or "insert random reason guide is not accurate." Price negotiation rarely comes down to guide at this point, it comes down to what position the dealer is in and if you can "bundle" or use other negotiation/buying techniques.

 

In reality the guide is not used in day to day transactions nor is it used to start the pricing process on average. There are far too many books and too little time for it to be practical.

 

We just keep perpetuating the concept of the "guide" as it holds some small group attributed "theistic" value in the hobby that is nearly unsubstantiated by the smallest number of actual transactions.

 

:shrug:

 

For slabbed books, GPA and a combination of other sales data is used to price. Many times as a starting point and then marked up (or rarely down) for "insert random reason here."

 

.... most of the successful shops around here use a combination of the OPG and asking prices on eBay to price their better material.... and most of it turns over fairly quickly. They do have their fair share of fairly priced books, however. To stay in business in a brick and mortar environment books have to actually sell, and discounts by the stack are often employed. Personally, even after 40 years of buying a price guide, I still look forward to it...... I would miss it. I can't help but notice how many of the HG early SA books that were skyrocketing for several years are now often selling at around Guide GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[BarryAllen]

@kimik

 

Please don't take this personally, but your example is a common one and I find that it falls to the same pitfalls as others.

 

- First, you don't actually price books in a collection by OSPG. You select a few of the identified "keys" and provide a guide price on them. If those keys are moderate to large in size, the price you are providing with the OSPG is grossly understated. I am not going to go further on this one because I don't know you personally so this doesn't apply to you directly, but this is generally where the big money exchange happens and using OSPG could be considered "disingenuous."

- Second, for the balance of the books (generally >95% of a collection is filler) you agree to a arbitrary total by box or book that has no basis in OSPG. No one has time to price every book and if you did, you would have to negotiate every book and likely overpay - both improbable and impractical.

- Third, when you resell the collection you are certainly not going through hundreds (if not thousands) of books and pricing them accordingly to OSPG. If you're good you sort them to find any hidden "gems" and put them into resale categories and boxes I listed examples of above based on your average acquisition cost by book and your needed profit margin.

 

As far as wall books go, your experience has not been my experience. I have been to hundreds of LCS and none of them have ever had the wall books priced according to OSPG. If anything doing so would be giving away money because it isn't accurate at all. In my experience most wall books are overpriced relative to actual market value (using mainly eBay as a reference). Many times they are asking for GPA prices or eBay listed prices (not sold prices). In any case they are certainly not based on OSPG and quickly dismiss the guide value as "not good for keys" or some other reason. This is partially correct, but doesn't justify their pricing either. However, they can price however they want, my point is just that OSPG is again irrelevant in the situation.

 

While I appreciate your POV and know that some share it, I stand by my statement above and maintain the OSPG is an archaic tool that is not truly used as people believe it to be (as it is by and large irrelevant) and in the cases it is used it is in order to disproportionately garner a profit.

 

Again, nothing against you personally or your individual ethics or morals. I don't know you from Adam.

[BarryAllen]

@jimbo

 

Sounds like your experience is more nostalgic than practical use. Just an observation.

[G.A.tor]

Come to my store. Every raw wall book is at least 10-20% or more under gpa /ospg combo

[entalmighty1]

Come to my store. Every raw wall book is at least 10-20% or more under gpa /ospg combo

 

Where are you located in Florida? I'll be near Pensacola in June.

[jimjum12]

@jimbo

 

Sounds like your experience is more nostalgic than practical use. Just an observation.

 

.... not nostalgic at all..... I see these guys almost weekly and discuss this issue often. It really is how they do business.... and all have 20+ year retail presences in this area. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[BarryAllen]

@jimbo

 

Sounds like your experience is more nostalgic than practical use. Just an observation.

 

.... not nostalgic at all..... I see these guys almost weekly and discuss this issue often. It really is how they do business.... and all have 20+ year retail presences in this area. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Forgive me, your statement appeared fairly nostalgic, especially the part of "missing it" if it were gone.

 

I cannot refute your personal experience and I certainly believe that they are telling you that. I bet they even think it as well. My point is that in reality, in practice, they don't use it as much as they claim to.

 

In observation of buying habits of many others who have made similar claims I have found OSPG has barely been a factor. However they always claim otherwise post transaction and talk about how it is used... It is approaching urban legend status...

[BarryAllen]

Come to my store. Every raw wall book is at least 10-20% or more under gpa /ospg combo

 

Find me my the grail I am looking for and I will fly to your shop to pick it up and buy some of your wall books too!

 

 

[entalmighty1]

@jimbo

 

Sounds like your experience is more nostalgic than practical use. Just an observation.

 

.... not nostalgic at all..... I see these guys almost weekly and discuss this issue often. It really is how they do business.... and all have 20+ year retail presences in this area. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Forgive me, your statement appeared fairly nostalgic, especially the part of "missing it" if it were gone.

 

I cannot refute your personal experience and I certainly believe that they are telling you that. I bet they even think it as well. My point is that in reality, in practice, they don't use it as much as they claim to.

 

In observation of buying habits of many others who have made similar claims I have found OSPG has barely been a factor. However they always claim otherwise post transaction and talk about how it is used... It is approaching urban legend status...

 

I barely sell, but when I buy, I find the only time I use OSPG as anything other than a point of reference is if there are very few data points accessible from actual sales.

[Aman619]

Overstreets pricing data is akin to GPA and any other (though these are the two most widely used) You need to understand their strengths and weaknesses and use the data accordingly.

 

Its been easy to disparage the Guide as useless this past decade, ever since slabbing came along, but there are millions of comicbooks for which there aren't any other consistent data points.

 

So whether Overstreet is too low, or too high on any books in particular, it sets a benchmark for every book IN CONTEXT WITH ALL OTHER BOOKS from which you draw your final values for any book in any grade, along with any other more current sales data you can assemble. there is no perfect solution.

 

Also many raw dealers STILL price according to Overstreet because their customers expect it and buy according to "sticker vs Guide". Whether that means for them "AT Guide", or "30% below Guide" is all part of the complexity and knowledge base it requires to value (both buying and selling) comics today.

 

 

[kimik]

@kimik

 

Please don't take this personally, but your example is a common one and I find that it falls to the same pitfalls as others.

 

 

No worries. I am not taking anything personally here.

 

- First, you don't actually price books in a collection by OSPG. You select a few of the identified "keys" and provide a guide price on them. If those keys are moderate to large in size, the price you are providing with the OSPG is grossly understated. I am not going to go further on this one because I don't know you personally so this doesn't apply to you directly, but this is generally where the big money exchange happens and using OSPG could be considered "disingenuous."

 

When I am buying raw GA/SA/BA only collections, I do grade and price every single book. I will go with GPA for the keys/hot books, but for the rest of the collection, which is 95 - 99% common books, I use OSPG as a price reference for two reasons: 1) the collector I am buying them from has already looked at OSPG and we are mainly haggling on grading and/or 2) for those OO that are not aware of what they have it provides a sense of trust/reassurance that I am not taking advantage of them (instead of going $1 or less per book on SA collections like other local buyers do......)

 

Have I lost collections as a result of showing OOs how much their collections are worth? Definitely, as in some cases they will decide to hold onto them since the collection is worth more than they thought it was. In the end they will usually let me buy at least some of the books I want for dealing with them fairly.

 

The only time I do get a bit peeved is when I price a collection, the OO/owner shops it to LCSs as well and mentions that I priced it out, and then one of the LCSs matches my offer and the OO/owner sells it to them so they do not have to take it home again.

 

- Second, for the balance of the books (generally >95% of a collection is filler) you agree to a arbitrary total by box or book that has no basis in OSPG. No one has time to price every book and if you did, you would have to negotiate every book and likely overpay - both improbable and impractical.

 

Like I said above, it depends on the collection. When dealing with GA/SA/BA collections I grade and price every book when both buying and selling, even for commons.

 

In the case of copper/modern books, I will grade and price every issue from the better titles (e.g. Batman, ASM) and offer bulk on the rest. Does it take more time? Definitely, but in the end it helps me to avoid overpaying on collections as you want to make sure the that good stuff is in high enough grade that buying the collection is worth it.

 

- Third, when you resell the collection you are certainly not going through hundreds (if not thousands) of books and pricing them accordingly to OSPG. If you're good you sort them to find any hidden "gems" and put them into resale categories and boxes I listed examples of above based on your average acquisition cost by book and your needed profit margin.

 

As stated above, it depends on the collection, but for all of my GA/SA/BA books I grade and price every single book when selling, no matter how low grade/low value, as it maximizes my return on it and helps me to avoid the mistake of selling restored books as unrestored. The restoration issue is a big one - as a seller your reputation is key and passing restored books as unrestored kills it fast. Sure, everyone will make a mistake every so often (including the biggest dealers), but if you knowingly do it on a regular basis like some sellers it will hurt you longer term. I have been buying and selling online and at local shows since 1997 and have seen a lot of other sellers that do things the wrong way flame out fast as a result of this, thankfully.

 

For modern collections, I will grade and price the better titles, even if it is only $3 - $4 per book, to again maximize my return. I learned a long time ago that if you are blowing out books in bulk to a LCS the less organized you are the lower the price. Don't get me wrong, I will still use $1 boxes if I have to unload stuff fast at shows, but when I sell overstock in bulk to LCSs I will always grade and price the better titles so I can get a better return.

 

As far as wall books go, your experience has not been my experience. I have been to hundreds of LCS and none of them have ever had the wall books priced according to OSPG. If anything doing so would be giving away money because it isn't accurate at all. In my experience most wall books are overpriced relative to actual market value (using mainly eBay as a reference). Many times they are asking for GPA prices or eBay listed prices (not sold prices). In any case they are certainly not based on OSPG and quickly dismiss the guide value as "not good for keys" or some other reason. This is partially correct, but doesn't justify their pricing either. However, they can price however they want, my point is just that OSPG is again irrelevant in the situation.

 

The LCSs worth going to in town here will price their older stuff at OSPG in grade. If they are aware of a key heating up and going for more they will price them up sometimes, but not always. As two of the owners will tell you, they would rather sell a book that they are going to profit on anyways to a collector for below market if it cultivates a new long term customer rather than gouging on every book. If they want full market, they can put it on eBay. However, if they give a deal to a new or long time customer then they will have repeat business that more than makes up for the bit of unclaimed value they leave on the table.

 

 

While I appreciate your POV and know that some share it, I stand by my statement above and maintain the OSPG is an archaic tool that is not truly used as people believe it to be (as it is by and large irrelevant) and in the cases it is used it is in order to disproportionately garner a profit.

 

Again, nothing against you personally or your individual ethics or morals. I don't know you from Adam.

 

If all you do is buy keys/slabs, then GPA is definitely the way to go. Otherwise, for raw common books, OSPG is still the valuation tool that the majority of stores and collectors use.

 

 

[BarryAllen]

@kimik

 

Please don't take this personally, but your example is a common one and I find that it falls to the same pitfalls as others.

 

 

No worries. I am not taking anything personally here.

 

- First, you don't actually price books in a collection by OSPG. You select a few of the identified "keys" and provide a guide price on them. If those keys are moderate to large in size, the price you are providing with the OSPG is grossly understated. I am not going to go further on this one because I don't know you personally so this doesn't apply to you directly, but this is generally where the big money exchange happens and using OSPG could be considered "disingenuous."

 

When I am buying raw GA/SA/BA only collections, I do grade and price every single book. I will go with GPA for the keys/hot books, but for the rest of the collection, which is 95 - 99% common books, I use OSPG as a price reference for two reasons: 1) the collector I am buying them from has already looked at OSPG and we are mainly haggling on grading and/or 2) for those OO that are not aware of what they have it provides a sense of trust/reassurance that I am not taking advantage of them (instead of going $1 or less per book on SA collections like other local buyers do......)

 

Have I lost collections as a result of showing OOs how much their collections are worth? Definitely, as in some cases they will decide to hold onto them since the collection is worth more than they thought it was. In the end they will usually let me buy at least some of the books I want for dealing with them fairly.

 

The only time I do get a bit peeved is when I price a collection, the OO/owner shops it to LCSs as well and mentions that I priced it out, and then one of the LCSs matches my offer and the OO/owner sells it to them so they do not have to take it home again.

 

- Second, for the balance of the books (generally >95% of a collection is filler) you agree to a arbitrary total by box or book that has no basis in OSPG. No one has time to price every book and if you did, you would have to negotiate every book and likely overpay - both improbable and impractical.

 

Like I said above, it depends on the collection. When dealing with GA/SA/BA collections I grade and price every book when both buying and selling, even for commons.

 

In the case of copper/modern books, I will grade and price every issue from the better titles (e.g. Batman, ASM) and offer bulk on the rest. Does it take more time? Definitely, but in the end it helps me to avoid overpaying on collections as you want to make sure the that good stuff is in high enough grade that buying the collection is worth it.

 

- Third, when you resell the collection you are certainly not going through hundreds (if not thousands) of books and pricing them accordingly to OSPG. If you're good you sort them to find any hidden "gems" and put them into resale categories and boxes I listed examples of above based on your average acquisition cost by book and your needed profit margin.

 

As stated above, it depends on the collection, but for all of my GA/SA/BA books I grade and price every single book when selling, no matter how low grade/low value, as it maximizes my return on it and helps me to avoid the mistake of selling restored books as unrestored. The restoration issue is a big one - as a seller your reputation is key and passing restored books as unrestored kills it fast. Sure, everyone will make a mistake every so often (including the biggest dealers), but if you knowingly do it on a regular basis like some sellers it will hurt you longer term. I have been buying and selling online and at local shows since 1997 and have seen a lot of other sellers that do things the wrong way flame out fast as a result of this, thankfully.

 

For modern collections, I will grade and price the better titles, even if it is only $3 - $4 per book, to again maximize my return. I learned a long time ago that if you are blowing out books in bulk to a LCS the less organized you are the lower the price. Don't get me wrong, I will still use $1 boxes if I have to unload stuff fast at shows, but when I sell overstock in bulk to LCSs I will always grade and price the better titles so I can get a better return.

 

As far as wall books go, your experience has not been my experience. I have been to hundreds of LCS and none of them have ever had the wall books priced according to OSPG. If anything doing so would be giving away money because it isn't accurate at all. In my experience most wall books are overpriced relative to actual market value (using mainly eBay as a reference). Many times they are asking for GPA prices or eBay listed prices (not sold prices). In any case they are certainly not based on OSPG and quickly dismiss the guide value as "not good for keys" or some other reason. This is partially correct, but doesn't justify their pricing either. However, they can price however they want, my point is just that OSPG is again irrelevant in the situation.

 

The LCSs worth going to in town here will price their older stuff at OSPG in grade. If they are aware of a key heating up and going for more they will price them up sometimes, but not always. As two of the owners will tell you, they would rather sell a book that they are going to profit on anyways to a collector for below market if it cultivates a new long term customer rather than gouging on every book. If they want full market, they can put it on eBay. However, if they give a deal to a new or long time customer then they will have repeat business that more than makes up for the bit of unclaimed value they leave on the table.

 

 

While I appreciate your POV and know that some share it, I stand by my statement above and maintain the OSPG is an archaic tool that is not truly used as people believe it to be (as it is by and large irrelevant) and in the cases it is used it is in order to disproportionately garner a profit.

 

Again, nothing against you personally or your individual ethics or morals. I don't know you from Adam.

 

If all you do is buy keys/slabs, then GPA is definitely the way to go. Otherwise, for raw common books, OSPG is still the valuation tool that the majority of stores and collectors use.

 

 

Thank you for providing your experience and prospective - it was/is helpful.

 

I am surprised that you invest the time you do into so many books that just turn and burn, but I am certainly in no position to argue with your methods. If anything I am inclined to do business with you based on your answers.

 

I personally haven't experienced the same level of detail in the dealers I have experienced as you when it comes to use of the OSPG. The LCS I have dealt with have been more bad than good when it comes to pricing; however, I also recognize that I don't represent the entire market (by any stretch).

 

You probably won't ever convince me that OSPG is as useful as you find it, but you also admit it isn't perfect. Recognizing that I can also admit that it does have utility if used consistently akin to your process.

 

Thank you for taking the time and the discussion!

[mar-vell]

just remember this kiddies- Overstreet bad! Mar-vell good!