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How much do you deduct from a grade for print creases?

Started by Inhuman Fiend,

13 posts in this topic

Inhuman Fiend

Inhuman Fiend

Posted
Posted

Like most of you, I've got a few high grade comics with print creases. I know they are considered production flaws, but I was wondering if you have a comic with one of them, how much should you deduct from the grade? For example, I have an ASM 300 that is otherwise NM but has a print crease on the front cover. Should the print crease drop the grade down some? And does it matter if it is on the front or back cover? It seems to me that it shouldn't affect the grade like a regular crease since it is a production flaw, not actual wear. My inclination was to drop it down a half a grade or so, but I would love other opinions. Thanks!

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sfilosa

sfilosa

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Posted

Correct.

 

But as we have found out on the "missing staple" incident, manufacturing flaws can put a "glass ceiling" on the grade of a book. Is the ceiling lower for the different ages groups, possibly.

 

I know that I had a Gaines File Copy with a fairly long printers crease on the front that still graded CGC 9.6. 893applaud-thumb.gif

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greggy

greggy

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My former Shanna the She Devil 1 got a CGC 9.8 with 3 printer's creases.

 

I've included a scan of a TOD 11 with a long BC crease that got a 9.6. I doubt that it would have gotten a 9.8 without it so I feel that its effect on the grade was negligible.

 

738603-TOD11BC.jpg

738603-TOD11BC.jpg.0cf93d24ee502e625f6ea0d27af27794.jpg

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Inhuman Fiend

Inhuman Fiend

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Wow...good news. I'm happily surprised...always figured it would drop the grade. Oh by the way...the comment about the "missing staple" issue reminded me of something else: I have a couple of books with that print defect as well. How does CGC view those? Thanks!

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FFB

FFB

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Wow...good news. I'm happily surprised...always figured it would drop the grade. Oh by the way...the comment about the "missing staple" issue reminded me of something else: I have a couple of books with that print defect as well. How does CGC view those? Thanks!

 

A book missing a staple can get up to a 9.6.

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sfilosa

sfilosa

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I second that.

 

But, did the age of the book also have anything to do with that "ceiling"?

 

And, I would guess that GA books intentionally manufactured with only one staple (i.e. right in the middle of the spine) would not have any ceiling on the grade (just like squarebounds do not).

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FFB

FFB

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I second that.

 

But, did the age of the book also have anything to do with that "ceiling"?

 

And, I would guess that GA books intentionally manufactured with only one staple (i.e. right in the middle of the spine) would not have any ceiling on the grade (just like squarebounds do not).

 

Steve said something about an age ceiling (before/during the 1970s, maybe?). The Overstreet Grading Guide does not differentiate between the ages though, and specifically states in the 9.4 NM section that a missing staple is not a defect. So since that's the "industry standard," I think it's fair to follow it even if the book doesn't fall within Borock's silly "age ceiling" for missing staples.

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sfilosa

sfilosa

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I think it's fair to follow it even if the book doesn't fall within Borock's silly "age ceiling" for missing staples.

 

 

blush.gif

Me think your TOS #52 and #53 will get no better then FN (6.0), with minor restoration (from Steve Borock's accidential pen slippage while grading them).

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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My former Shanna the She Devil 1 got a CGC 9.8 with 3 printer's creases.

 

I've included a scan of a TOD 11 with a long BC crease that got a 9.6. I doubt that it would have gotten a 9.8 without it so I feel that its effect on the grade was negligible.

 

Does anyone agree with CGC's stance on printing creases? I don't see much of an aesthetic difference between a printing ripple and a non-color-breaking crease, yet CGC significantly downgrades for one but not the other.

 

I'm not even sure I understand when printing creases happen during the production process. I used to think the crease was a facet of the paper before the ink was applied, but I noticed that the creases often fold slightly over onto the cover about 1/32" to 1/64". If such a fold were there prior to the ink being applied, you'd think that there wouldn't be any ink present on the side of the fold that isn't pointing upwards, yet with every example I've seen to date of a folded printer's crease, the ink is present on both sides of the fold. How the heck does that happen? confused.gif Even if there isn't a fold and just a "ridge" with all parts of the paper pointing at least somewhat upwards, I would think that the ink would be slightly smudged around the crease if it was there prior to the ink being applied, yet I can't remember ever seeing this. I can only assume that the creases somehow form later in the production process after the ink has been applied... confused-smiley-013.gif

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verygoodplus

verygoodplus

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From DiceX on the production flaw thread (emphasis added):

 

Next up...Print Creases

Here's what they look like.

 

508031-printcrease.jpg

 

Here's the answer...

The Printer crease is caused by the paper getting a wrinkle in it as it passes through the press units.

The units smash the wrinkle flat while printing the images onto the paper.

There is no ink on the inside of the wrinkle as this area was "hidden" during the print process.

If you have a cheap book with this type of wrinkle, you can try to unfold this wrinkle area and reveal the white paper area.

Do this only if you want to see what I'm trying to describe.

I wouldn't do this to a high grade or valuable book because you will end up with a white streak running through the cover.

 

Something I'd like to add to my response...

This is more common with thinner, cheaper paper.

It can also be caused after the ink is printed on the paper as it goes through the rollers at the end of the press.

If there is ink inside of the crease, it was caused after it was inked.

If there is no ink inside of the crease, it was caused before ink hit the page.

More often than not, it will be before inked.

 

This is very typical on specific books because the cover paper was cheap or very thin (Low basis weight).

Weird War #1 and Defenders #1 come to mind as books with a high percentage of this flaw.

Actually, Greggy pointed out to me that it is very hard to find a Weird War #1 without a Print Crease.

I have looked at many copies since he told me this to find that he is correct.

thumbsup2.gif

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fantastic_four

fantastic_four

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While CGC doesn't downgrade for production creases, I (as well as others I imagine like FF) do. It took me a long time to find a HG Fantastic Four 9 without them.

 

My FF 9 also has two wrinkles on the front cover, both about 4 inches in length. It's about an 8.5/9.0 without the wrinkles, and there is a fine amount (about 1/100") of ink missing along both wrinkles. Missing ink seems to be more serious than wrinkles where the ink is continuously applied across them.

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