Heritage Auction November 2015....Some truly nice SA comics up for sale!!

[tth2]

To me, 90% of what gets the SA Pedigree stamp just isn't. If it doesn't have the early 60's in bare minimum 9.0, I'm not even going to be bothered discussing it. By my standards, the SA Peds can be counted on one hand.

Jimbo finally lets his inner snob surface!

 

I like it!

[jimjum12]

To me, 90% of what gets the SA Pedigree stamp just isn't. If it doesn't have the early 60's in bare minimum 9.0, I'm not even going to be bothered discussing it. By my standards, the SA Peds can be counted on one hand.

Jimbo finally lets his inner snob surface!

 

I like it!

 

....I'm thinking of applying for membership to the "Crotchety Olde Man Association" ..... but sometimes I just feel so unworthy GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[rob_react]

Even the great collections we know about aren't chock full of 9.6 keys.

I've read your Record Sales and Most Valuable Books pages many times. But I forgot you maintained this list of key pedigree books too. It's a great resource and fun reading.

 

I aim to please

 

 

That's a list I need to revisit, to be sure. The last time I updated was when the Don and Maggie Thompson books came out. I'm not sure if anything new has surfaced, but it can't hurt to check.

 

[namisgr]

I, too, agree that the number of truly worthy SA pedigree collections with exceptional pre-1963 material still to be found is liable to be very low. A retiree would have to be living in a bubble or off the grid to have missed the stories in the media on the shocking value of exceptionally well preserved old comics. It's hard to imagine there are many ultra high grade collections still in the hands of their original owners, who are now in their 70s or even older. Those in their 60s who bought and saved comics as kids were mostly too young to have kept the pre-1963 books in great shape.

 

I also agree that it's the secondary owner collections that have the potential to fill the void. There must be at least a few long-time comic dealers or collectors who through the years have held onto the finest copies of early SA keys that they've come across.

[Spiderphill]

I, too, agree that the number of truly worthy SA pedigree collections with exceptional pre-1963 material still to be found is liable to be very low. A retiree would have to be living in a bubble or off the grid to have missed the stories in the media on the shocking value of exceptionally well preserved old comics. It's hard to imagine there are many ultra high grade collections still in the hands of their original owners, who are now in their 70s or even older. Those in their 60s who bought and saved comics as kids were mostly too young to have kept the pre-1963 books in great shape.

 

I also agree that it's the secondary owner collections that have the potential to fill the void. There must be at least a few long-time comic dealers who through the years have held onto the finest copies of early SA keys that they've come across.

I agree on the long time collector dealers who know what they have and are in no rush to unload them.

[lou_fine]

I wonder how many forgotten copies of these books there are. The ones that were put into boxes, and then thrown into attics or basements never to see the light of day for decades.

You would have thought that a lot of these books would have surfaced because of the heightened attention and market value but the mindset of a typical pack rat collector is to hang on until they have to pry the books from their cold dead hands. I'm not talking OO collections, just nice books that have been squirreled away for 30-40 years. There must be batches of these type of collections out there. I remember Gator saying that he has a client who owns 100+ copies of AF#15 and is still buying so as far as SA goes I'm hoping that there must are some cool stuff tucked away in the big North American cities.

 

Bingo!

 

Now these are the exact types of collections which I am talking about. Long-term generational collectors from decades before CGC came onto the scene and who would have absolutely no interest in getting their books slabbed until it is time to sell.

 

Unfortunately for me, I came onto the collecting scene way too late. As an aside, I was in my sister's basement the other week trying to clean out some of my stuff from decades ago. Still had a lot of my elementary school stuff from the 60's which I finally got around to tossing out. About time too!

 

Did manage to find several large boxes of my comics from the 60's and 70's which I had stashed away in plastic bags. Unfortunately, nothing really valuable, but there were file copy runs of the Tower books and Mars Patrol which I had really liked at the time. Went through another box and there were cherry copies of almost every so-called hot (but common and overhyped) books from the early to mid 70's. What surprised me was the condition of the books and how there wasn't a speck of dust or cobwebs in any of the boxes. Heck, the furniture in my house collects dust after only 1 short week while there was absolutely nothing in these boxes after sitting there untouched for 40+ long years.

 

Really should go back up there one of these days to see exactly what books are in some of the other boxes. Probably more of the early cosmic stuff since it looks like I was a fan of the Silver Surfer, Starlin books, Starlord and Guardians books, Neal Adams DC's, etc. Nothing really amounting to any significant dollar value, but just nice to see books in such beautiful condition after being squirreled away for so many decades.

[lou_fine]

 

I think even 1963 there will be a good, fairly fat, number more.

 

1961 and 1962 not so many. A year in early marvel time is like a decade in normal time 1962 and 1964 might as well be decades apart when it comes to how many hg copies are in existence.

 

+1

 

Although I am really more of a GA collector, I know exactly what you mean.

 

When it comes to GA books in half decent condition, 1936 and 1938 may as well be decades apart, while 1935 and 1938 may as well be light years apart.

[lou_fine]

I, too, agree that the number of truly worthy SA pedigree collections with exceptional pre-1963 material still to be found is liable to be very low. A retiree would have to be living in a bubble or off the grid to have missed the stories in the media on the shocking value of exceptionally well preserved old comics. It's hard to imagine there are many ultra high grade collections still in the hands of their original owners, who are now in their 70s or even older. Those in their 60s who bought and saved comics as kids were mostly too young to have kept the pre-1963 books in great shape.

 

I also agree that it's the secondary owner collections that have the potential to fill the void. There must be at least a few long-time comic dealers who through the years have held onto the finest copies of early SA keys that they've come across.

I agree on the long time collector dealers who know what they have and are in no rush to unload them.

 

+2

 

Totally agree with both opinions here!

 

Not only are they in no rush to unload them, but they are also in no rush to get any of their books slabbed.

 

Can't really blame them as there is no real reason for slabbing if you are not planning to sell, while there would be several disadvantages to slabbing if you are planning to just hold onto them for the foreseeable future

[Ghost Town]

The only Silver Age pedigrees that I know definitely had uber grade (9.4-9.8) copies of the very early books are the Curators and the White Mountains. There might be more, but off the top of my head, I can't think of them.

Western Penn.

 

It seems like every time we think that the number of undiscovered pedigree-level OO collections must be tapped out, a new collection emerges. I'm not saying I'm holding my breath, but if another fantastic SA pedigree with early keys ultra-HG emerged, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

But I think Lou Fine was referring more to collections (not necessarily OO) that contain stellar books that are still sitting unslabbed. There are at least three collectors who hang out on these Boards whose SA books, let alone GA books, would seriously move the needle if they ever got around to slabbing them.

 

Which won't happen unless (i) they decide to sell them as part of an estate planning type of decision, (ii) they get divorced (unlikely as they've all been married for a while and if their wives haven't dumped them by now, it's hard to see why it would happen now ), or (iii) god forbid, they should suddenly die.

Good call with the Western Penn collection. I get the impression that most of Marvel titles were scattered to the wind with that pedigree. The TOS, TTA, and Strange Tales were very much kept together by a handful of collectors. And I'm guessing that's the case with some of the DC titles too.

 

I owned the ASM #40 at one point years ago. But I've never seen an earlier Spidey than that. I've seen a few early DDs too. According to Tom H (linmoth), the collection had all the early Marvels. I'd love to know where those books are now. I suspect you know the story with the DCs, Tim. I don't but I'd love to learn more.

 

As far as the non original owner killer collections still being out there, sure, it's possible. But do they include 9.4/9.6 copies of Hulk #1, AF #15, FF #1 and other 1961/1962 books? I've heard the stories too but I'm still skeptical until see some books.

[bluechip]

Seems like CBCS is bringing a much lower price than CGC in almost every case!!

 

That's 1/2 FMV for one of the biggest Silver Age keys.That's a rough result.

 

Exactly which ones of the SA keys are you referring to that went for 50% of their FMV here?

The CBCS 9.6 JIM 83.

 

Yeah, that's the only one I was following that absolutely tanked in context.

 

Some other keys with GPA data:

 

Avengers 1 9.6 215k. 2011 high (movie hype zone supreme) was $250k. Not a good result,but not the worst haircut a person you could see buying against movie hype.

 

Avengers 4 9.6 19,717.50. This book is well off the movie hype high. This is 1/3 of the highs from 2011-2013. It is in line with some sales of the past year, so I wouldn't say the result here is a surprise. That said, the book dropped off a movie hype shaped cliff. This is pretty much as bad as it gets playing the movie hype game. This book won't see $60,000 in this grade for 10 years.

 

FF#1 9.0 143k. 2012 $145,450

 

TOS 39 9.4 $89k Down from a high of 147k a few years ago, but right in the middle of the sales of the last couple of years ($100,000, $80,500, $102,500, $83,650)

 

 

Which brings us back to the original point that CBCS prices are coming in lower than CGC prices. From the above summary, it would appear that CGC prices from this particular auction are coming in lower than even CGC prices from previous auctions.

 

Maybe its also an issue of timing as winter auctions normally tends to do worse than summer auctions where some of the previous sales may have occur. Or possibly a slight downward trend for uber HG SA Marvel keys as more of them are either found or created as time goes on.

 

It's actually not that much of a mystery. FF 1 is flat because the characters are being crapped on by Sony and, as I pointed out, the Avengers (including TOS 39) books are down from movie hype. Avengers 1 and TOS 39 are actually holding up pretty well where Avengers 4 is a historically bad movie hype buy. The one I always go back to is ASM 14 in 9.4. that still hasn't recovered it's 2001 high. I think people who paid $60,000 for Avengers 4 in 9.6 are in for a much longer wait to get their money back. If I were them I'd just sell and write off the loss.

 

People going for top dollar items in general want something that is unique (even if it's just unique for a while). They are sometimes thinking about resale and sometimes not. I have wondered how many of them think a top grade will be unique forever versus the number who are willing to pay top dollar just to have something that is unique when they acquire it. It might drop in value, but waiting for it to drop means doing without in the meantime.

 

This is not limited to the world of collectibles. Looking at the prices on 4G TVs today a person might note they're half of last year's price for a TV twice as good. But life is made of moments, so you choose between getting what you want today versus living without it for who knows how long. For someone who's got the money and the inclination to pay 250K for a book that he could get for a few hundred in "reader" condition, more than likely he's in large part motivated by simply wanting what he wants when he wants it.

 

 

[kimik]

There are still a lot of decent OO collections out there with owners that are aware of their value that do not need the $$$. I am aware of two OO GA collections and two very nice 50s/60s (Atom/SA?) collections like that. In the GA collection cases, one is still owned by the OO and his family knows what they have, but the other was inherited by the son and has not resurfaced since a LCS lowballed him on his MMC #1 (back cover was missing but the front was apparently nice) a few years back. In the case of the nice 50s/60s or Atom/SA collections, they will likely go the estate and who knows what will happen then.

 

I have been waiting for nice SA OO collections to surface locally the past few years due to demographics, but so far they have been few and far between. Next year should see more collections surface here in Alberta if the oilpatch is still weak, but a lot of these will be secondary owner collections that were assembled over the past decade by people impacted by the downturn.

[Bronty]

I remember walls of books like that too. But I also know that grading standards have progressed a great deal over the last 30-40 years. And a book that somebody might have called "Mint" in 1979 could easily end up in a slab with a 9.0 or less on the label today.

 

.

 

agreed, but FWIW this LCS has always been a tight, on the money grader. Their NM in 1987 when I was starting to buy books from them is a 9.4 now. Sometimes better.

[lou_fine]

There are still a lot of decent OO collections out there with owners that are aware of their value that do not need the $$$. I am aware of two OO GA collections and two very nice 50s/60s (Atom/SA?) collections like that. In the GA collection cases, one is still owned by the OO and his family knows what they have, but the other was inherited by the son and has not resurfaced since a LCS lowballed him on his MMC #1 (back cover was missing but the front was apparently nice) a few years back. In the case of the nice 50s/60s or Atom/SA collections, they will likely go the estate and who knows what will happen then.

 

 

Yes, there are most definitely still OO collections sitting out there waiting to be unearth.

 

The real question, however, is whether they are of pedigree quality in terms of both condition and having key books.

[kimik]

There are still a lot of decent OO collections out there with owners that are aware of their value that do not need the $$$. I am aware of two OO GA collections and two very nice 50s/60s (Atom/SA?) collections like that. In the GA collection cases, one is still owned by the OO and his family knows what they have, but the other was inherited by the son and has not resurfaced since a LCS lowballed him on his MMC #1 (back cover was missing but the front was apparently nice) a few years back. In the case of the nice 50s/60s or Atom/SA collections, they will likely go the estate and who knows what will happen then.

 

 

Yes, there are most definitely still OO collections sitting out there waiting to be unearth.

 

The real question, however, is whether they are of pedigree quality in terms of both condition and having key books.

 

The person I know that saw one of the GA collections figures they would be VF or a bit better at the high end, with the early books being FNish so not quite pedigree status but if enough if the big keys are there who knows.

 

The one that had the back cover less Marvel Comics 1 supposedly has the other big GA keys in it including Action 1 and Tec 27 complete but the grade is unknown as they were not shopped around.

[Peter G]

It is truly amazing how long some people hoard their books

[kimik]

If they do not need the $$ and still enjoy the books, the OO or their children will not sell them. It is not a bad type of asset to have on hand for a rainy day. One or two GA keys or high grade SA keys can provide a nice cash infusion in a pinch. While it is not as liquid as stocks/bonds/other financial instruments, you can flip a high demand key or hot book fairly quickly (withing 24 hours?) if you need to.

[Moondog]

There are still a lot of decent OO collections out there with owners that are aware of their value that do not need the $$$. I am aware of two OO GA collections and two very nice 50s/60s (Atom/SA?) collections like that. In the GA collection cases, one is still owned by the OO and his family knows what they have, but the other was inherited by the son and has not resurfaced since a LCS lowballed him on his MMC #1 (back cover was missing but the front was apparently nice) a few years back. In the case of the nice 50s/60s or Atom/SA collections, they will likely go the estate and who knows what will happen then.

 

I have been waiting for nice SA OO collections to surface locally the past few years due to demographics, but so far they have been few and far between. Next year should see more collections surface here in Alberta if the oilpatch is still weak, but a lot of these will be secondary owner collections that were assembled over the past decade by people impacted by the downturn.

 

The Moondog/Dr. Fate collection is a good example of this. The owner would have still had them under wraps if he didn't need the money for medical expenses. The collection sold for just a tad less than $1,000,000.

[trmoore54]

There are still a lot of decent OO collections out there with owners that are aware of their value that do not need the $$$. I am aware of two OO GA collections and two very nice 50s/60s (Atom/SA?) collections like that. In the GA collection cases, one is still owned by the OO and his family knows what they have, but the other was inherited by the son and has not resurfaced since a LCS lowballed him on his MMC #1 (back cover was missing but the front was apparently nice) a few years back. In the case of the nice 50s/60s or Atom/SA collections, they will likely go the estate and who knows what will happen then.

 

I have been waiting for nice SA OO collections to surface locally the past few years due to demographics, but so far they have been few and far between. Next year should see more collections surface here in Alberta if the oilpatch is still weak, but a lot of these will be secondary owner collections that were assembled over the past decade by people impacted by the downturn.

 

The Moondog/Dr. Fate collection is a good example of this. The owner would have still had them under wraps if he didn't need the money for medical expenses. The collection sold for just a tad less than $1,000,000.

 

Similarly the Twin Cities Collection would probably be still under wraps had the owner not died in a house fire...