Top 50 Copper Books in Overstreet 7 7

[FlyingDonut]

On 4/2/2019 at 8:10 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I don't remember exactly when Cable took off, but I do remember that I went out and picked up more copies of New Mutants 86 because the art seemed to have a similar quality to McFarlane's and all of his issues were increasing in value. In only have my one copy of 87, but I still have a few 86s. That's one thing that's really important in this whole conversation; at the time, back issue values were being driven by hot artists far more so than character appearance. (Yes, random appearances of hot characters were important too — Punisher War Journal 6 & 7 are great examples of this — but as I remember it, the books with McFarlane, Lee, Liefeld, etc.'s work were the books to have for a few years.

Cable took off about six minutes after NM 87 came out.

[HighVoltage]

53 minutes ago, FlyingDonut said:

I'm not really going to get into this, but you are extremely wrong about your beliefs about Venom. Venom didn't become ZOMGVENOM until ASM 375, and even after that the pop for ASM 300 was much further down the line.

The trade paperback you put out earlier was a response directly to Todd McFarlane leaving to go to Image.

Wolverine, Ghost Rider, and Punisher made books sell. Nothing else.

Agreed.

I can remember going to the San Diego Con in 1990 and trading the new Ghost RIder series, new Punisher stuff - like War Journal 6/7, Wolverine 1, New Mutants 87, X-Men 248, Sabertooth and Thanos appearances for PRIME Silver Age books - I'm talking Avengers 4, Spidey 1, AF 15, early JIMs and TOS.

Not all of those were straight-up trades, but maybe 1/3 cash and 2/3 new stuff. The new books carried a lot of weight.

The TPB was a huuuuuge FU to McFarlane.

[MyNameIsLegion]

It’s interesting to look back 25 years at that era of the hobby when you were a young adult at the time. Some things make sense and others seem just ridiculous in hindsight. 

The Image artists pretty much staged a rebellion on the premise that their talent was driving sales more than the characters or stories they were working on. It seemed true at first, but in the end it wasn’t really the case. Most of the new characters created by Image fell flat. Spawn, Savage Dragon, the Maxx  were a modest exception but the rest were forgettable clones of the big 2 properties that made them famous. The Big 2 survived with the B talent, just barely and all we learned was that if the best talent is paired with the best characters it’s a win for the consumer. Otherwise everyone loses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, FlyingDonut said:

Cable took off about six minutes months after NM 87 came out.

 

[MyNameIsLegion]

10 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

NM 93 was really the first time anyone took notice- because: Wolverine. I hadn’t bought a NM issue off the stands since the Bill S. Issues. Then the X-tinction Agenda Mutant Crossover and some gawdawful Jon Bogdanove art in X-Factor mixed in with Jim Lee on X-men which makes for a really jarring viewing experience, especially if reading a trade.

 

 

 

 

 

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

48 minutes ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

NM 93 was really the first time anyone took notice- because: Wolverine. I hadn’t bought a NM issue off the stands since the Bill S. Issues. Then the X-tinction Agenda Mutant Crossover and some gawdawful Jon Bogdanove art in X-Factor mixed in with Jim Lee on X-men which makes for a really jarring viewing experience, especially if reading a trade.

I have to credit Bogdanove for one thing; for me, his Warlock is the definitive Warlock. But agreed that the rest of the characters could have been better

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

3 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

It’s interesting to look back 25 years at that era of the hobby when you were a young adult at the time. Some things make sense and others seem just ridiculous in hindsight. 

The Image artists pretty much staged a rebellion on the premise that their talent was driving sales more than the characters or stories they were working on. It seemed true at first, but in the end it wasn’t really the case. Most of the new characters created by Image fell flat. Spawn, Savage Dragon, the Maxx  were a modest exception but the rest were forgettable clones of the big 2 properties that made them famous. The Big 2 survived with the B talent, just barely and all we learned was that if the best talent is paired with the best characters it’s a win for the consumer. Otherwise everyone loses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, it's true that their talent did boost sales, but that only matters if it's a good read. I think we're basically on the same page, but the character doesn't matter so much as the writer. A good writer can write an interesting book about a character that everyone previously thought was , and a bad writer can write unreadable books about beloved characters. The initial problem with Image is that they didn't try to pair with decent writers, but also that they didn't have decent editorial guidance pushing them to work out the kinks in their books and keep their deadlines. Lateness more than anything else killed the hype. People can't read books that are never published.

[PeterPark]

I meant the character Venom not the value of Venom appearances. I thought ASM had stayed undervalued for a very long time when compared to the popularity of the character. Is that what people thought I meant? Oops.

[PeterPark]

3 hours ago, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Well, it's true that their talent did boost sales, but that only matters if it's a good read. I think we're basically on the same page, but the character doesn't matter so much as the writer. A good writer can write an interesting book about a character that everyone previously thought was , and a bad writer can write unreadable books about beloved characters. The initial problem with Image is that they didn't try to pair with decent writers, but also that they didn't have decent editorial guidance pushing them to work out the kinks in their books and keep their deadlines. Lateness more than anything else killed the hype. People can't read books that are never published.

Pitt...Prophet...WETWORKS 

[bababooey]

I recall the Venom intro issue as being an ending of the long drawn out 'black costume' saga...however from the Tom Defalco Comic Creators on Spider-man interview with Todd McFarlane there's a question about issues 298-300 and Venom's creation/design that's followed up with "Did you anticipate the enormous response the readers had toward Venom?"   It's on page 148, I'm too lazy to post a pic of the page or type out the response but here's the cover of the book. 

My recollection of why these early issues were valuable always related to first McFarlane with both 298 & 300 rising together at the same time...I'm sure there was some initial buzz over the new Spidey villain who was introduced in an anniversary issue because he was basically a bigger stronger and ruthless Spider-man.  So I'd say six months after ASM 300 came out it had three things going for it in this order 1. McFarlane art (w/inks) 2. Anniversary issue 3. Venom full intro.  

[ComicConnoisseur]

7 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

It’s interesting to look back 25 years at that era of the hobby when you were a young adult at the time. Some things make sense and others seem just ridiculous in hindsight. 

The Image artists pretty much staged a rebellion on the premise that their talent was driving sales more than the characters or stories they were working on. It seemed true at first, but in the end it wasn’t really the case. Most of the new characters created by Image fell flat. Spawn, Savage Dragon, the Maxx  were a modest exception but the rest were forgettable clones of the big 2 properties that made them famous. The Big 2 survived with the B talent, just barely and all we learned was that if the best talent is paired with the best characters it’s a win for the consumer. Otherwise everyone loses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Image guys were like rock stars back then. I don't think we will ever see it again. In it`s own way the Beatlemania of comics. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

 

 

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, PeterPark said:

I meant the character Venom not the value of Venom appearances. I thought ASM had stayed undervalued for a very long time when compared to the popularity of the character. Is that what people thought I meant? Oops.

That's not how it works. If Venom was that popular, his appearances would have been selling for more and dealers would have been using his name to advertise them... as they did when he really became popular.

[divad]

7 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

NM 93 was really the first time anyone took notice- because: Wolverine. I hadn’t bought a NM issue off the stands since the Bill S. Issues. Then the X-tinction Agenda Mutant Crossover and some gawdawful Jon Bogdanove art in X-Factor mixed in with Jim Lee on X-men which makes for a really jarring viewing experience, especially if reading a trade.

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, I'd buy that cover tomorrow . . . 

[PeterPark]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

That's not how it works. If Venom was that popular, his appearances would have been selling for more and dealers would have been using his name to advertise them... as they did when he really became popular.

First appearances weren't what they are now. As said, McFarlane's art overshadowed that aspect. What do you mean really became popular?

[MyNameIsLegion]

a coupe of things:

1. Black Suit/Venom/Carnage/McFarlane/image/90's comic crash:  As these events unfold, and how they were perceived at the time, how they were perceived and recollected by fans and creators as they were unfolding, and what REALLY happened when looking back 25 years later in the fullness of time, and not subjective re-interpretation is a tricky thing to un-tangle. It's not dissimilar to the criticisms of Stan's recollection of the creation of the Marvel Universe, who was credited with what, and how conscious and deliberate those actions and intentions were at the time versus how they were consolidated and almost rewritten in the telling each time Stan was interviewed over the course of 40 years. Human's have a pesky habit of retconning their own past and recall and feelings about the past mostly unconsciously, and sometime deliberately when presenting them to others in the present. 

Citing data, sales, appearances, merchandizing, etc is a much better attempt at objectivity, that is still subject to interpretation, but we should ever at least try to establish some agreement on the basic facts and argue from there. It is from that perspective that I am most in agreement with RMA and FD and Smeagol, Geeks-Peeps and and CC. 

My take: Black Suit/Venom/Carnage/McFarlane/image/90's comic crash:  all these factors inform how Venom came to be, came to be modestly popular, only later overly collectible, and later over-saturated.  Secret Wars 8 started out as moderately collectible only for the change in costume,  Venom as a distinct character only later in Amazing Spider-man, and that initially was more driven by McFarlane's appearance more than Venom's origin. All this makes for a somewhat convoluted determination of Venom's true "first" appearance.  Not unlike Cable, and Uncanny #201 and maybe Gambit and the X-Men annual. My feeling is that Venom was the result, not the intent of the writers to resolve the Alien Costume story, and they did what is exceedingly rare these days: created a somewhat new character for the purpose of telling a story, and it just happened to catch on with fans, and later, much later, and even decades later exceed all expectations and become a break-out character.  With that they have retconned all sorts of aspects of the Venom character, made him a cardboard villain, an anti-hero, a hero, a virus, and well I really don't WTF he's supposed to be but he's sure stuck around.  If McFarlane hadn't lent a hand with the visuals, maybe he never would have caught on, who knows, but venom outlived his stumbling origins as a character. That's what some characters do, despite the best, and worst intentions of the writers and artists and editors that steer them along the way.

Contrast that with say, Cable and Gambit.  Both had some initial gravity, cool visuals, mysterious origins, lots of attitude, lots of appearances, toys, some cartoons, BUT, they kinda petered out.  Venom and Deadpool have both far exceed them, for having all been created around the same time.  They peaked early, Deadpool and Venom peaked 20 years after the fact.   I would posit that fans started to get Mutant cross-over fatigue in the late 90's and early 2000's and once Marvel kick-started the MCU and were acquired by Disney, they deliberately started sandbagging the Mutant books since Fox had the movie rights. Now that Disney has the Mutants back, who knows where the emphasis will be now on the comics side.  The Avengers have been the top tier of the comics and movies- as the 1st iteration of the Avengers team in the MCU cycle through due to age and contracts, will they introduce new "Avengers" or pivot to one of the other properties like FF or Mutants? Will the comic side dust off some of the characters that have lain fallow?

TMNT:  this is where I do part ways with RMA:  I would not consider TMNT the most important Copper age book. It's important only for the fact that it was licensed out for toys, cartoons and movies,  Most people have no idea it was ever a comic to start with, they didn't grow up reading it, drawing it on their school folders, no, they watched the cartoon after school and got the toys for xmas.  That's exactly how it played out for my 40 year old brother, and he collected comics, but never owned a single TMNT comic. His kids went through their Turtles phase, and it was 100% media and merchandizing driven.  People outside the hobby know who Stan and Jack are. Eastman?  Didn't he have something to do with Kodak? By that logic shouldn't Aircel's MIB one of the most important comics of the Copper age? Not in my estimation, but it made a gazillion dollar movie franchise.

I'm not sure what the single most important book of the Copper age is: single most important book in the Copper age TODAY? or what was the single post important book during the copper age? Those are 2 different questions to me. I'll have to think about that.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by MYNAMEISLEGION

[Aweandlorder]

8 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

The Image guys were like rock stars back then. I don't think we will ever see it again. In it`s own way the Beatlemania of comics. 

The true Beatles of comics:

[ComicConnoisseur]

Interesting that some of these Image guys have connections to some of the last big characters introduced by Marvel.

McFarlane = Venom

Liefeld = Cable and Deadpool

Jim Lee = Gambit and Omega Red.

That`s a pretty nice portfolio of characters that have a huge potential in upcoming movies.

 

 

[Lazyboy]

5 hours ago, MYNAMEISLEGION said:

TMNT:  this is where I do part ways with RMA:  I would not consider TMNT the most important Copper age book. It's important only for the fact that it was licensed out for toys, cartoons and movies,  Most people have no idea it was ever a comic to start with, they didn't grow up reading it, drawing it on their school folders, no, they watched the cartoon after school and got the toys for xmas.  That's exactly how it played out for my 40 year old brother, and he collected comics, but never owned a single TMNT comic. His kids went through their Turtles phase, and it was 100% media and merchandizing driven.  People outside the hobby know who Stan and Jack are. Eastman?  Didn't he have something to do with Kodak? By that logic shouldn't Aircel's MIB one of the most important comics of the Copper age? Not in my estimation, but it made a gazillion dollar movie franchise.

TMNT had a large impact on the comic industry before it became the huge multimedia franchise it is now. Plus, comics are still part of that franchise.

TMNT 1 is, by far, the biggest, most important CA book.

[MyNameIsLegion]

32 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

TMNT had a large impact on the comic industry before it became the huge multimedia franchise it is now. Plus, comics are still part of that franchise.

TMNT 1 is, by far, the biggest, most important CA book.

I would agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.