Top 50 Copper Books in Overstreet 7 7

[Lazyboy]

15 minutes ago, waaaghboss said:

Pretty much.  People trying to push the marvel team up book or spectacular spidey is just... strange.  Ive had both of those books since the early 90's, and never realized (or cared) that they predated secret wars 8.

You never realized that Spidey got rid of the costume before Marvel told the story of how he got it?

[Catwomancomics]

6 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

You never realized that Spidey got rid of the costume before Marvel told the story of how he got it?

Obvious printing defect.

[Catwomancomics]

7 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

Pretty much.  People trying to push the marvel team up book or spectacular spidey is just... strange.  Ive had both of those books since the early 90's, and never realized (or cared) that they predated secret wars 8.

Not strange at all for a collector to want all early appearances.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Catwomancomics

[PeterPark]

This top 50, being Overstreet, should be value based only, as the guide tries to be non-sentimental in it's own lists

[RockMyAmadeus]

We ought to be very, very careful about retrofitting our collective memories based on current demand and appeal. 

Every single copy of Secret Wars #8 I've owned I bought for $5 or less (usually a dollar), and I've owned about 15-20 of them. You'll find virtually nothing in contemporary comics literature about the book, for many, many years after its publication. ASM #252 was THE book to get (and yes, MTU #141 and Spec Spid #90 were also ignored), and by the time SW #8 came out...7 months later...Peter had already had his epic battle with the symbiote (#258) and gotten rid of it, and was back to his old red n' blues.

It wasn't until Venom became popular in 1993 (and yes, even Venom did a slow burn in terms of popularity) that people started paying attention to books like Secret Wars #8 and the other symbiote issues. And, even still, it would be virtually another decade and a half before the book became the "iconic" book it is today.

[PeterPark]

Venom has been popular since '88. Are you talking about things like the first solo series and maximum carnage? Venom was already well-established by then. I don't remember ASM 333 being particularly huge but McFarlane Venoms were already huge and the Larsen issues were worth $5 like a month later. Then Carnage came out while Venom was still very popular and he was huge. And you're saying Venom became popular a year after that? Venom was an instant hit. Or are you just referring to the overkill of Venom-themed issues? Because I know I thought it was getting to be a little much by 1993...

[JTLarsen]

3 hours ago, PeterPark said:

This top 50, being Overstreet, should be value based only, as the guide tries to be non-sentimental in it's own lists

Um, no. If they want it value based only they’ll just refer to their own values. And there are non-sentimental reasons other than $ to rank some books higher than others. The hobby is commodified enough as it is, thanks.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, PeterPark said:

This top 50, being Overstreet, should be value based only, as the guide tries to be non-sentimental in it's own lists

It appears somewhere in the OPG, but this isn't an OPG Top X list, which are useless because they're based on guide prices, which are useless because they don't seem to be based on any known reality (even accounting for the fact that they're many months out of date).

[Broke as a Joke]

If a book in 1984 or 1985 was at $4 or $5 after just coming out that was a big deal.  Secret Wars 8 was big out the gate because of the black costume and it was the origin.  It would get bigger when Venom came into existence.  People shouldn't discount what a big event Spidey getting the black costume was.

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, PeterPark said:

Venom has been popular since '88. Are you talking about things like the first solo series and maximum carnage? Venom was already well-established by then. I don't remember ASM 333 being particularly huge but McFarlane Venoms were already huge and the Larsen issues were worth $5 like a month later. Then Carnage came out while Venom was still very popular and he was huge. And you're saying Venom became popular a year after that? Venom was an instant hit. Or are you just referring to the overkill of Venom-themed issues? Because I know I thought it was getting to be a little much by 1993...

Venom has not been popular since '88, in any measurable, quantifiable way. Not that anyone is expected to know this, but this has been discussed at length on the board. If you have any evidence of the "McFarlane Venoms" and ASM #332-333 being worth "$5 a month later", please do share it.

The truth about Venom is that, until ASM #361-363, which was really the catalyst, and then the one-two punch of ASM #375 and Venom: LP #1 in 1993, Venom was not the main driver of value for any book. Prior to that, he was an interesting character, but nothing particularly special. You refer to the "overkill of Venom-themed issues", but the fact is, from ASM #298 (Mar, 1988) to ASM #361 (Apr, 1992), Venom appeared in a grand total of 22 comics:

ASM #298

#299

#300

#315

#316

#317

Quasar #6

#330

#331

#332

#333

Avengers Annual #19

#344

#345

#346

#347

What If #31

She Hulk #29

ASM Annual #25

Web Annual #7

What If #34

Darkhawk #13

Plus three mentions in the Official Handbook to the Marvel U and Spiderman Saga #4...the vast majority of which were cameos. Venom is the substantive/main character in only SEVEN (7) comic books published in four years: ASM #300, 316-317, 332-333, and 346-347.

By contrast, the Punisher appears in, by my count, 233 different comics in that same time period.

You will find functionally no mention of Venom in contemporary collecting literature (OPG, Update, etc) concerning Venom until 1992. Venom was...most assuredly...NOT an "instant hit", but a slow burn, over several years.

Edited April 1, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 minutes ago, Broke as a Joke said:

If a book in 1984 or 1985 was at $4 or $5 after just coming out that was a big deal.  Secret Wars 8 was big out the gate because of the black costume and it was the origin.  It would get bigger when Venom came into existence.  People shouldn't discount what a big event Spidey getting the black costume was.

People also shouldn't overestimate the impact of that event, months after the fact. I don't see anyone discounting what a big event ASM #252 was. It was tremendous; the first time a Spidey issue sold out nationwide since #121-122. It was absolutely huge. But it was focused on #252, and only #252. 

If Secret Wars #8 was "big out of the gate"...there would be something printed in contemporary collecting literature that demonstrates that. What does the 1985 OPG Update say? Or the 1986 OPG? 1987? 1988? 1989? 1990? 1991? Secret Wars #8 was most assuredly not a "$4 or $5" book after just coming out, except perhaps on a very local basis, in some weird cases. 

As I mentioned before...Secret Wars #8 was not a particularly special book in the series until many, many years after its release. 

 

[PeterPark]

45 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

It appears somewhere in the OPG, but this isn't an OPG Top X list, which are useless because they're based on guide prices, which are useless because they don't seem to be based on any known reality (even accounting for the fact that they're many months out of date).

Then why say Overstreet in the title of the thread? It's not 50 most significant copper age books...

[PeterPark]

20 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Venom has not been popular since '88, in any measurable, quantifiable way. Not that anyone is expected to know this, but this has been discussed at length on the board. If you have any evidence of the "McFarlane Venoms" and ASM #332-333 being worth "$5 a month later", please do share it.

The truth about Venom is that, until ASM #361-363, which was really the catalyst, and then the one-two punch of ASM #375 and Venom: LP #1 in 1993, Venom was not the main driver of value for any book. Prior to that, he was an interesting character, but nothing particularly special. You refer to the "overkill of Venom-themed issues", but the fact is, from ASM #298 (Mar, 1988) to ASM #361 (Apr, 1992), Venom appeared in a grand total of 22 comics:

ASM #298

#299

#300

#315

#316

#317

Quasar #6

#330

#331

#332

#333

Avengers Annual #19

#344

#345

#346

#347

What If #31

She Hulk #29

ASM Annual #25

Web Annual #7

What If #34

Darkhawk #13

Plus three mentions in the Official Handbook to the Marvel U and Spiderman Saga #4...the vast majority of which were cameos. Venom is the substantive/main character in only SEVEN (7) comic books published in four years: ASM #300, 316-317, 332-333, and 346-347.

By contrast, the Punisher appears in, by my count, 233 different comics in that same time period.

You will find functionally no mention of Venom in contemporary collecting literature (OPG, Update, etc) concerning Venom until 1992. Venom was...most assuredly...NOT an "instant hit", but a slow burn, over several years.

I can't think of any character that was a bigger instant hit since that time. The Punisher had his own titles and was not introduced in that year so I'm not sure why he was chosen for comparison. The popularity of Venom in spite of no control over the character was the main reason Mcfarlane, the biggest artist in comics, left Marvel, the biggest publisher, to do his own thing. Image comics exists because Venom and to a lesser extent Gambit, Cable, etc. were instantly accepted. The slow burn wasn't there. Even Venom's introduction in ASM 300 as well as subsequent appearances so soon after creation speak to the demand for more Venom. He was truly an inferno and everyone wanted more. That Darkhawk issue sold because people wanted everything Venom. I don't have "evidence" other than experience. I bought these issues and looked for some back issues. My wallet couldn't afford them til I got a $20 ASM 300 back in 2003 but that book was always popular and that was always Venom-driven.

I guess you are only qualifying a character's popularity by over-saturation. I don't know why that is.

In what vortex was Venom not insanely popular '88-'92?!?

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, PeterPark said:

I can't think of any character that was a bigger instant hit since that time. The Punisher had his own titles and was not introduced in that year so I'm not sure why he was chosen for comparison. The popularity of Venom in spite of no control over the character was the main reason Mcfarlane, the biggest artist in comics, left Marvel, the biggest publisher, to do his own thing. Image comics exists because Venom and to a lesser extent Gambit, Cable, etc. were instantly accepted. The slow burn wasn't there. Even Venom's introduction in ASM 300 as well as subsequent appearances so soon after creation speak to the demand for more Venom. He was truly an inferno and everyone wanted more. That Darkhawk issue sold because people wanted everything Venom. I don't have "evidence" other than experience. I bought these issues and looked for some back issues. My wallet couldn't afford them til I got a $20 ASM 300 back in 2003 but that book was always popular and that was always Venom-driven.

I guess you are only qualifying a character's popularity by over-saturation. I don't know why that is.

In what vortex was Venom not insanely popular '88-'92?!?

No, I'm pretty sure none of this is the case. I'm not sure being the main character/villain in a mere seven (7) comics in four years would qualify as being "insanely popular", but maybe my understanding is off? And McFarlane knew the rules of comic creation (Venom was Michelinie's idea, in any event) at the time, and knew any character he created with Marvel would not be his to control. I've never seen anything that suggests that he wanted control over Venom.  McFarlane did want more control over the creative process, which is why he was given the Spider-Man title...but, over 15 issues, there's no Venom appearance. 

.

The reason the Punisher was chosen for comparison is because, for that time, the Punisher is an excellent example of an insanely popular character. No, it would be a mistake to claim that the initial popularity of ASM #300 was "Venom-driven." It was not. It was all about McFarlane. 

As far as Cable goes...there was no new character more popular in 1991 than Cable. New Mutants #87 was the hottest single back issue for most of 1991. Cable was far bigger than Venom, far faster. 

But, by all means, if you have evidence or proof of your claims, I'm sure a number of people would be quite interested in it. 

 

[PeterPark]

4 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No, I'm pretty sure none of this is the case. I'm not sure being the main character/villain in a mere seven (7) comics in four years would qualify as being "insanely popular", but maybe my understanding is off? And McFarlane knew the rules of comic creation (Venom was Michelinie's idea, in any event) at the time, and knew any character he created with Marvel would not be his to control. I've never seen anything that suggests that he wanted control over Venom.  McFarlane did want more control over the creative process, which is why he was given the Spider-Man title...but, over 15 issues, there's no Venom appearance. 

.

The reason the Punisher was chosen for comparison is because, for that time, the Punisher is an excellent example of an insanely popular character. No, it would be a mistake to claim that the initial popularity of ASM #300 was "Venom-driven." It was not. It was all about McFarlane. 

As far as Cable goes...there was no new character more popular in 1991 than Cable. New Mutants #87 was the hottest single back issue for most of 1991. Cable was far bigger than Venom, far faster. 

But, by all means, if you have evidence or proof of your claims, I'm sure a number of people would be quite interested in it. 

 

I just don't get how you don't remember it...

Your Mandela effect is in full effect...

Edited April 1, 2019 by PeterPark

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, PeterPark said:

I just don't get how you don't remember it...

Your Mandela effect is in full effect...

You can't remember what didn't happen.

Here...do an experiment.

Pull out your 1989 OPG, and tell me what the comments are for ASM #300.

Then do the same with 1990, 1991, and 1992.

Then, grab all your Overstreet Updates from the time period (#7-#22-ish) and tell me what the comments are for ASM #300 and other early Venom appearances.

Then, grab your Comics Values Monthly issues from the time period and tell me how many Venom comments there are.

Then do the same with your CBGs. 

Like I said...it's important to not retrofit our memories based on current appeal and demand. Relying on memories...as you have confessed to doing...is immensely unreliable and useless. What is of tremendous value is contemporaneous (meaning, happening at the same time) reports from multiple sources. You don't need to take my word for it, nor should you or anyone do so. Just look at what people wrote who wrote it at the time it was happening, and see what they said. 

[Lazyboy]

51 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

Then why say Overstreet in the title of the thread? It's not 50 most significant copper age books...

Maybe try reading the thread. The OP is an Overstreet advisor and the list is part of his market report.

[PeterPark]

14 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Maybe try reading the thread. The OP is an Overstreet advisor and the list is part of his market report.

I thought Overstreet was a price guide 

[PeterPark]

16 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

You can't remember what didn't happen.

Here...do an experiment.

Pull out your 1989 OPG, and tell me what the comments are for ASM #300.

Then do the same with 1990, 1991, and 1992.

Then, grab all your Overstreet Updates from the time period (#7-#22-ish) and tell me what the comments are for ASM #300 and other early Venom appearances.

Then, grab your Comics Values Monthly issues from the time period and tell me how many Venom comments there are.

Then do the same with your CBGs. 

Like I said...it's important to not retrofit our memories based on current appeal and demand. Relying on memories...as you have confessed to doing...is immensely unreliable and useless. What is of tremendous value is contemporaneous (meaning, happening at the same time) reports from multiple sources. You don't need to take my word for it, nor should you or anyone do so. Just look at what people wrote who wrote it at the time it was happening, and see what they said. 

Did you think contemporaneous was not a word? Why restate the same parenthetically (meaning, in parentheses)?

I don't follow how this didn't happen in your area. 

Carnage capitalized on Venom's popularity. 

Did you buy back issues then? Price guides like Overstreet are notoriously conservative with new books. Look at New Mutants 98 throughout the 2000's. I'm talking about actual sales. Venom issues were worth more than the surrounding McFarlane issues except maybe the Green Goblin and Hobgoblin issue which still never outshadowed 298-300. The Venom issues cooled after the early 90's but everything did. Maybe you are thinking of that time? I got ASM 129 for $30 back then too, haha.

[Lazyboy]

10 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

I just don't get how you don't remember it...

Your Mandela effect is in full effect...

That's funny, because it's yours that is the problem here.

Go find some old price guides or just flip through some comics from the late 80s-early 90s and look at the dealer ads. They don't match your memory.

56 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

I thought Overstreet was a price guide 

Yeah, other people make that mistake as well. They're always good to either buy from or sell to.