Why do we value 1st appearances so much??

[Bronty]

Historically speaking, it goes back to the dawn of comic book fandom. I think it was the '60s when people started "collecting" comic books. Before then, comics were disposable entertainment. Those early collectors set the stage for what is desirable for later generations - and 1st appearances and 1st issues were what they chose. Probably because it makes sense that the "first" of something would be more valuable than other iterations.

 

Yes, plus those first appearances were often really key stories. Overstreet used to (maybe still does) denote 1st app and origin because those origin stories were the whole foundation for the character.

 

So, they are the "first" of something, generally scarcer than later appearances (esp the much later ones) , there's that foundation of older = more valuable as you say, and the 1st app stories were generally foundational.

 

In today's day and age I think there is also a bias to just collect a few choice issues vs runs, and so that adds value to 1st appearances today.

 

[slym2none]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

There is no debate. IH180 is Wolverine's first appearance.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Pip1988]

I was just thinking, reading through this thread about the importance of origin etc. I thought of the artwork as someone mentioned that on ASM#129 the artwork wasn't great but it was a first appearance.

 

Imagine that this was the cover on the 1st appearance of Captain America

 

 

Would you?

 

Does it matter how bad the artwork is if it is on the 1st appearance?

[miraclemet]

 

Does it matter how bad the artwork is if it is on the 1st appearance?

 

this poses an interesting question... what's the most valuable "bad art" comic book?

[Pip1988]

 

Does it matter how bad the artwork is if it is on the 1st appearance?

 

this poses an interesting question... what's the most valuable "bad art" comic book?

 

Just makes me wonder how important the artwork is in relation to the story.

 

Dire story + amazing art = $

 

Amazing story + dire art = $

 

Considering what people 'like', compare it to movies. There have, especially in comic book movies, reboots and new origin stories. Sometimes the reboot is received better than the original.

 

So where would comic books fall. If a character began really badly story wise and was pulled, but later rebooted with a better character and story, would people then go 'Wow, I need the 1st appearance of this character', find the highest grade they could and stick in a slab?

 

Would the collecting mentality of getting the 'first' take over and make a comic that was worse more valuable than something artistically (story and art) better?

[Real Elijah Snow]

Very good points Greg, but I have to disagree with this one assessment. Almost got 'im! is in every way a comic book. It's literally a story told completely in panel form, read from left to right up to down with multiple panels per page filled with word balloons. Basically, if you open the book, it is no different than your standard comic book. Harley appears several times in the book, and it predates Batman adventures #12. The only difference in this book and your standard issue of Harbinger is that it's a couple of inches shorter in height. I'm sure most people consider Mouse Guard or Stuff of Legend, Acme Novelty Library or any of the other books that are a different size comic books. The Almost Got 'Im book with a tape fits every criteria for a comic book there is. It's just that the larger public hasn't actually looked inside this book to see that it's a comic, and assume it's in a children's book format. It's her true first appearance in comic book form even though the market has embraced Batman Adventures #12 due to lack of knowledge. Also, I know that wasn't your main point, so sorry for the rant. This topic could probably have it's own thread honestly, but I'll save that for Andrew to do

A bigger question is: She might have appeared in a coloring book, or a read-along-with-this-cassette book, but that's not a comic book.

[Real Elijah Snow]

That image is the first appearance of Captain America's beeewbs.

I was just thinking, reading through this thread about the importance of origin etc. I thought of the artwork as someone mentioned that on ASM#129 the artwork wasn't great but it was a first appearance.

 

Imagine that this was the cover on the 1st appearance of Captain America

 

 

Would you?

 

Does it matter how bad the artwork is if it is on the 1st appearance?

[Michelangelo]

A first appearance is the unveiling of a character in print to the world. It is the genesis of a character, a character in it's earliest/roughest form, his/her first words spoken.

 

That's truly special - so many times these characters first appear in other titles and they weren't intended to be as huge as they would eventually become.

 

I value first appearances because those issues mark the beginning of a favourite character, story, mythos, etc. Those may be #1 issues or something obscure like BA 12. Doesn't matter to me.

 

 

 

[valiantman]

Very good points Greg, but I have to disagree with this one assessment. Almost got 'im! is in every way a comic book. It's literally a story told completely in panel form, read from left to right up to down with multiple panels per page filled with word balloons. Basically, if you open the book, it is no different than your standard comic book. Harley appears several times in the book, and it predates Batman adventures #12. The only difference in this book and your standard issue of Harbinger is that it's a couple of inches shorter in height. I'm sure most people consider Mouse Guard or Stuff of Legend, Acme Novelty Library or any of the other books that are a different size comic books. The Almost Got 'Im book with a tape fits every criteria for a comic book there is. It's just that the larger public hasn't actually looked inside this book to see that it's a comic, and assume it's in a children's book format. It's her true first appearance in comic book form even though the market has embraced Batman Adventures #12 due to lack of knowledge. Also, I know that wasn't your main point, so sorry for the rant. This topic could probably have it's own thread honestly, but I'll save that for Andrew to do

She might have appeared in a coloring book, or a read-along-with-this-cassette book, but that's not a comic book.

It's going to be a tough sell to get the cassette-with-accompanying-book recognized by comic book collectors as a comic book.

 

It would help make the case if the cassette-and-book combo packs were sold through Diamond.

[kav]

The most collectible bad art has gotta be NM 98

[Real Elijah Snow]

Yeah, it would be a tough sell for sure because of collector habits, and the randomness of what the market decides. It's one of those things where, if people don't want to call it a comic book, then what would you call it? It's not like a little golden book. Those don't have comics....inside.....of a book. Uhhh.... Man, if only collector's could come up with a name for a non hardback book filled with original comic content.

It will ultimately suffer because people will refuse to see the most obvious truth of it in favor of what they have been led to believe, but at the end of the day there exists a Batman Comic book with Harley Quinn in several panels talking with word balloons in a Batman story that predates Batman Adventures #12. I wish I had 1000 of them, but I've only got my one sealed copy. I've sold 5 BA #12 9.8's this year, and have 2 9.6's left. I love that book. I however don't think it's really Harley's first appearance in comic book form.

 

 

 

 

Very good points Greg, but I have to disagree with this one assessment. Almost got 'im! is in every way a comic book. It's literally a story told completely in panel form, read from left to right up to down with multiple panels per page filled with word balloons. Basically, if you open the book, it is no different than your standard comic book. Harley appears several times in the book, and it predates Batman adventures #12. The only difference in this book and your standard issue of Harbinger is that it's a couple of inches shorter in height. I'm sure most people consider Mouse Guard or Stuff of Legend, Acme Novelty Library or any of the other books that are a different size comic books. The Almost Got 'Im book with a tape fits every criteria for a comic book there is. It's just that the larger public hasn't actually looked inside this book to see that it's a comic, and assume it's in a children's book format. It's her true first appearance in comic book form even though the market has embraced Batman Adventures #12 due to lack of knowledge. Also, I know that wasn't your main point, so sorry for the rant. This topic could probably have it's own thread honestly, but I'll save that for Andrew to do

She might have appeared in a coloring book, or a read-along-with-this-cassette book, but that's not a comic book.

It's going to be a tough sell to get the cassette-with-accompanying-book recognized by comic book collectors as a comic book.

 

It would help make the case if the cassette-and-book combo packs were sold through Diamond.

[rjrjr]

Yeah, it would be a tough sell for sure because of collector habits, and the randomness of what the market decides. It's one of those things where, if people don't want to call it a comic book, then what would you call it? It's not like a little golden book. Those don't have comics....inside.....of a book. Uhhh.... Man, if only collector's could come up with a name for a non hardback book filled with original comic content.

It will ultimately suffer because people will refuse to see the most obvious truth of it in favor of what they have been led to believe, but at the end of the day there exists a Batman Comic book with Harley Quinn in several panels talking with word balloons in a Batman story that predates Batman Adventures #12. I wish I had 1000 of them, but I've only got my one sealed copy. I've sold 5 BA #12 9.8's this year, and have 2 9.6's left. I love that book. I however don't think it's really Harley's first appearance in comic book form.

 

 

 

 

Very good points Greg, but I have to disagree with this one assessment. Almost got 'im! is in every way a comic book. It's literally a story told completely in panel form, read from left to right up to down with multiple panels per page filled with word balloons. Basically, if you open the book, it is no different than your standard comic book. Harley appears several times in the book, and it predates Batman adventures #12. The only difference in this book and your standard issue of Harbinger is that it's a couple of inches shorter in height. I'm sure most people consider Mouse Guard or Stuff of Legend, Acme Novelty Library or any of the other books that are a different size comic books. The Almost Got 'Im book with a tape fits every criteria for a comic book there is. It's just that the larger public hasn't actually looked inside this book to see that it's a comic, and assume it's in a children's book format. It's her true first appearance in comic book form even though the market has embraced Batman Adventures #12 due to lack of knowledge. Also, I know that wasn't your main point, so sorry for the rant. This topic could probably have it's own thread honestly, but I'll save that for Andrew to do

She might have appeared in a coloring book, or a read-along-with-this-cassette book, but that's not a comic book.

It's going to be a tough sell to get the cassette-with-accompanying-book recognized by comic book collectors as a comic book.

 

It would help make the case if the cassette-and-book combo packs were sold through Diamond.

 

There was a thread about this book a few years ago in the modern forum. Honestly, at the time, there was no concrete proof that Almost Got 'Im came out before BA 12.

[Real Elijah Snow]

Do you have a link?

[KPR Comics]

If you ain't first, you're last

- Reese Bobby

[valiantman]

Do you have a link?

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7199873

[rjrjr]

Do you have a link?

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7159135&fpart=1

[AKA Rick]

It's in part supply and demand but in truth not just about limited editions and print runs, since that would automatically make one modern issue with a low print run higher value than an older issue with a larger print run, case in point, the New Mutants #98 1st Deadpool's value versus some of the other Deadpool comics with lower print runs priced lower.

 

I think there's some sort of nostalgia and prestige attached to 1st appearances. It's seen as "the best" since it's "the first", 'tho I can't really understand the way some 1st app's are listed as cameos like Incredible Hulk #180 has a full panel page of Wolverine and that should be his 1st appearance.

 

I would think a redefinition of cameo 1st app's would be if a character is introduced in title/name within the story, seen obscured but not revealed in the shadows or something less than face forward and full.

 

I like 1st appearances, since in comics the "death" is never permanent, but a 1st app is always the debut that can not be re-designed nor disputed.

[Real Elijah Snow]

Thanks for the link!

[Lazyboy]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first appearances is... uh weird. It really is.

 

Also, comparing FF48 to Hulk 180/181 is not a fair comparison. People seek out FF48 because it's a true first appearance. People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable. However, 180 is clearly the first time Wolvie appears

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first full appearances is... uh, weird. It really is.

 

Back when collectors used to actually read the books, they would discover characters after they debuted and seek out the history they missed. Collectors wanted to read stories with and about the character they loved, not stories about something else entirely where their character pops in for a quick "Hey! Buy the next issue, where you actually get to see me do something." in a single panel.

 

Just like first appearance means first story appearance and not some ad, article in a trade magazine or whatever, first full appearance means first full story appearance where the character actually matters to the story. Most of the time they are the same thing, but sometimes the next issue just really needed to retain the readers, I guess.

 

"People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable."

 

If that were true, people should have been seeking out 180 over 181 this entire time, since it was more valuable early on.

[rodan57]

Why is the first man on the moon so important?

 

This.