Why do we value 1st appearances so much??

[Jaydogrules]

1st appearances are almost strictly a super-hero comic concern or rather a concern for those who follow continuous stories. You can lump Walking Dead and other ongoing Image creator-owned titles in here as well. The over-the-top, heavy emphasis on 1st appearances also seems to be a current trend in comic collecting. I will go out on a limb here and say that there has been an influx of speculators who have helped propel 1st appearances to a level unseen in comic collecting history. They don't care about the stories and art (otherwise why would IH 271 be worth so much or even a book like Marvel Super-Heroes #18?) so much as the value of the book. Because this area of comic collecting is "hot" it draws the attention and money of collectors who might otherwise not care. There are a ton of people who have jumped on this bandwagon chasing the next "hot" character from the big 2.

 

But, there are a large number of collectors who don't care about 1st appearances as much as how cool a cover is or the story inside or who did the art. Some of those collectors collect horror, sci-fi, etc. from the bygone eras of the Age, Silver, and Coppy Ages. I don't think EC collectors for example care about 1st appearances. Or Bernie Wrightson collectors. Yet those comics are valuable. Some collect superhero titles like those who collect Neal Adam's Batman or Superman issues. Not all 1st appearances, but valuable. There are also collectors who collect the rare and unusual.

 

I fall into this other camp of collectors and couldn't be happier with today's market. There are so many cool comics that are being overlooked while the masses chase mostly the big 2 1st appearances driving those issues into the stratosphere. Pacific and Eclipse horror titles. Characters who have fallen out of favor like Groo, Rocketeer, Madman, etc. Issues in superhero titles that don't have a 1st appearance but are cool regardless. For those collectors, this is a pretty nice time to be collecting.

 

Great post! I collect first appearances (mainly of characters I dig) and classic covers (with a focus on Neal Adams covers). Sometimes I am able to knock both categories with one hit, for example ToD #1 or Tec #400...

 

----

 

I really don't get this ongoing debate about IH180 vs IH181... It's really, really straight forward:

 

In terms of value, the market is more interested in IH181 as it is a full-story featuring Wolverine and he is prominently featured on the cover.

 

However, a first appearance is characterised (ha!) by the character being unmistakable in the book... As in, the character is clearly depicted and named.

 

If they are not named, not clearly depicted etc, then I think it is up for debate to a certain extent. But if they are unmistakable (clearly depicted and clearly named), then whether that is a cameo or not, it is the true first appearance/first time they have appeared in a comic.

 

There's no "crowning", no 23:59 hrs birth to it... It is perfectly OK to prefer IH181 and have that as your grail etc etc, but I feel quite strongly that, regardless of the market dollar value associated with IH180 vs IH181, people shouldn't undermine or deny the complete and total clarity of this first appearance:

 

 

 

 

 

Yes that really was a great Wendigo story.

 

-J.

[Arkham]

[Gunnz]

i haven't read any posts on the previous 10 pages except for the OP, so here is my uninformed two cents.

 

I don't understand the drive to collect first appearances especially since you can find a reprint of all the important ones anyway. it's not the original, but if you're collecting for the first appearance, then it's about the story, not the original print. i think.... anyway, i'm happy collecting in my hypocritical little bubble. so continue the discussion!

[slym2none]

Why do we value 1st appearances so much??

but...

if you were born near at the very end of the day (Hulk #180), that's basically a cameo because it wasn't until the 2nd day that everyone got to really "get to know" you during your first full appearance (Hulk #181).

 

 

So do you celebrate one's "this is really not your birthday, but I didn't see you until the next day, so we're gonna celebrate this day instead."? Your real birthday is just a cameo day? What about the people who saw you a few days later? Weeks? Months? etc.

Birthdays are definitely celebrated the whole day even if you were born near midnight... but that's like celebrating the whole issue of Hulk #180, knowing there's only one page at the very end that matters.

 

It's easy to see why some collectors prefer to celebrate Hulk #181 as the first "full day of" Wolverine, when you imagine that Wolverine was born right before midnight in Hulk #180.

 

But that still doesn't make #181 his first appearance.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

Why do we value 1st appearances so much??

but...

if you were born near at the very end of the day (Hulk #180), that's basically a cameo because it wasn't until the 2nd day that everyone got to really "get to know" you during your first full appearance (Hulk #181).

 

 

So do you celebrate one's "this is really not your birthday, but I didn't see you until the next day, so we're gonna celebrate this day instead."? Your real birthday is just a cameo day? What about the people who saw you a few days later? Weeks? Months? etc.

 

 

I would say its more like starting to crown at 11:59pm (or a bit earlier). Someone saw a part of you that day, but you weren't born yet til sometime after 12am.

 

Bad analogy. In #180, we see Wolverine in full, named, and interacting with the other characters. That isn't crowning, that's being full-born and the parents named you already while being held in their arms.

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

1st appearances are almost strictly a super-hero comic concern or rather a concern for those who follow continuous stories. You can lump Walking Dead and other ongoing Image creator-owned titles in here as well. The over-the-top, heavy emphasis on 1st appearances also seems to be a current trend in comic collecting. I will go out on a limb here and say that there has been an influx of speculators who have helped propel 1st appearances to a level unseen in comic collecting history. They don't care about the stories and art (otherwise why would IH 271 be worth so much or even a book like Marvel Super-Heroes #18?) so much as the value of the book. Because this area of comic collecting is "hot" it draws the attention and money of collectors who might otherwise not care. There are a ton of people who have jumped on this bandwagon chasing the next "hot" character from the big 2.

 

But, there are a large number of collectors who don't care about 1st appearances as much as how cool a cover is or the story inside or who did the art. Some of those collectors collect horror, sci-fi, etc. from the bygone eras of the Age, Silver, and Coppy Ages. I don't think EC collectors for example care about 1st appearances. Or Bernie Wrightson collectors. Yet those comics are valuable. Some collect superhero titles like those who collect Neal Adam's Batman or Superman issues. Not all 1st appearances, but valuable. There are also collectors who collect the rare and unusual.

 

I fall into this other camp of collectors and couldn't be happier with today's market. There are so many cool comics that are being overlooked while the masses chase mostly the big 2 1st appearances driving those issues into the stratosphere. Pacific and Eclipse horror titles. Characters who have fallen out of favor like Groo, Rocketeer, Madman, etc. Issues in superhero titles that don't have a 1st appearance but are cool regardless. For those collectors, this is a pretty nice time to be collecting.

 

Great post! I collect first appearances (mainly of characters I dig) and classic covers (with a focus on Neal Adams covers). Sometimes I am able to knock both categories with one hit, for example ToD #1 or Tec #400...

 

----

 

I really don't get this ongoing debate about IH180 vs IH181... It's really, really straight forward:

 

In terms of value, the market is more interested in IH181 as it is a full-story featuring Wolverine and he is prominently featured on the cover.

 

However, a first appearance is characterised (ha!) by the character being unmistakable in the book... As in, the character is clearly depicted and named.

 

If they are not named, not clearly depicted etc, then I think it is up for debate to a certain extent. But if they are unmistakable (clearly depicted and clearly named), then whether that is a cameo or not, it is the true first appearance/first time they have appeared in a comic.

 

There's no "crowning", no 23:59 hrs birth to it... It is perfectly OK to prefer IH181 and have that as your grail etc etc, but I feel quite strongly that, regardless of the market dollar value associated with IH180 vs IH181, people shouldn't undermine or deny the complete and total clarity of this first appearance:

 

 

x1000

 

 

 

-slym

[Aweandlorder]

Theres a simple way to make IH180 blow up over 181

Marvel make a 2nd print of 180 with 3-3500 copies and put this on the cover

[kav]

That would do it

[VintageComics]

Why do we value birthdays so much? Anniversaries?

[kav]

I would value the last appearance of Spider Man if Marvel would stop publishing those books.

[Jaydogrules]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first appearances is... uh weird. It really is.

 

Also, comparing FF48 to Hulk 180/181 is not a fair comparison. People seek out FF48 because it's a true first appearance. People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable. However, 180 is clearly the first time Wolvie appears

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first full appearances is... uh, weird. It really is.

 

Back when collectors used to actually read the books, they would discover characters after they debuted and seek out the history they missed. Collectors wanted to read stories with and about the character they loved, not stories about something else entirely where their character pops in for a quick "Hey! Buy the next issue, where you actually get to see me do something." in a single panel.

 

Just like first appearance means first story appearance and not some ad, article in a trade magazine or whatever, first full appearance means first full story appearance where the character actually matters to the story. Most of the time they are the same thing, but sometimes the next issue just really needed to retain the readers, I guess.

 

"People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable."

 

If that were true, people should have been seeking out 180 over 181 this entire time, since it was more valuable early on.

 

The above post is so spot-on it needed to be bumped again.

 

-J.

[COI]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first appearances is... uh weird. It really is.

 

Also, comparing FF48 to Hulk 180/181 is not a fair comparison. People seek out FF48 because it's a true first appearance. People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable. However, 180 is clearly the first time Wolvie appears

 

This is a bit of a tautology; 181 is more valuable because it's more sought after, and more sought after because it's valuable?

 

The 180/181 price spread will never make sense to me, regardless of the (rather ) battle cover and full story. 180 should be the more valuable book, or they should at least be relatively equal, to be consistent with the first appearance logic most of the rest of the hobby seems to abide by.

[COI]

Why do we value birthdays so much? Anniversaries?

 

B-day blowies and anniversary blowies.

 

In other words, because blowies.

[VintageComics]

Why do we value birthdays so much? Anniversaries?

 

B-day blowies and anniversary blowies.

 

In other words, because blowies.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first appearances is... uh weird. It really is.

 

Also, comparing FF48 to Hulk 180/181 is not a fair comparison. People seek out FF48 because it's a true first appearance. People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable. However, 180 is clearly the first time Wolvie appears

 

This is a bit of a tautology; 181 is more valuable because it's more sought after, and more sought after because it's valuable?

 

The 180/181 price spread will never make sense to me, regardless of the (rather ) battle cover and full story. 180 should be the more valuable book, or they should at least be relatively equal, to be consistent with the first appearance logic most of the rest of the hobby seems to abide by.

 

Meaningless cameo at the end of/buried in a book < full story appearance 99.999% of the time.

 

Welcome to comic book collecting 101.

 

-J.

[valiantman]

"Next issue teaser page" might be a better description than "cameo" when it comes to these situations.

[Prince Namor]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first appearances is... uh weird. It really is.

 

Also, comparing FF48 to Hulk 180/181 is not a fair comparison. People seek out FF48 because it's a true first appearance. People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable. However, 180 is clearly the first time Wolvie appears

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first full appearances is... uh, weird. It really is.

 

Back when collectors used to actually read the books, they would discover characters after they debuted and seek out the history they missed. Collectors wanted to read stories with and about the character they loved, not stories about something else entirely where their character pops in for a quick "Hey! Buy the next issue, where you actually get to see me do something." in a single panel.

 

Just like first appearance means first story appearance and not some ad, article in a trade magazine or whatever, first full appearance means first full story appearance where the character actually matters to the story. Most of the time they are the same thing, but sometimes the next issue just really needed to retain the readers, I guess.

 

"People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable."

 

If that were true, people should have been seeking out 180 over 181 this entire time, since it was more valuable early on.

 

The above post is so spot-on it needed to be bumped again.

 

-J.

 

I've been saying that for years now!

[COI]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first appearances is... uh weird. It really is.

 

Also, comparing FF48 to Hulk 180/181 is not a fair comparison. People seek out FF48 because it's a true first appearance. People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable. However, 180 is clearly the first time Wolvie appears

 

This is a bit of a tautology; 181 is more valuable because it's more sought after, and more sought after because it's valuable?

 

The 180/181 price spread will never make sense to me, regardless of the (rather ) battle cover and full story. 180 should be the more valuable book, or they should at least be relatively equal, to be consistent with the first appearance logic most of the rest of the hobby seems to abide by.

 

Meaningless cameo at the end of/buried in a book < full story appearance 99.999% of the time.

 

Welcome to comic book collecting 101.

 

-J.

 

Thanks, I'm excited to be here. Just started my time payments on a Spectacular Spider-Man 200 in 9.6 (FOIL COVER!) and I'm eyeing a raw 9.4 Darkhawk 1, though I don't want to get too ahead of myself.

[Jaydogrules]

I would much rather have and pay top dollar for a Silver Surfer 1 or 4 then a FF 48 since I love those two books. I of course seek out FF 48 since they command big bucks but I've always wondered why people care so much about 1st appearance they will debate for hours over Hulk 180/181.

 

For someone who collects comics to not understand why people seek out first appearances is... uh weird. It really is.

 

Also, comparing FF48 to Hulk 180/181 is not a fair comparison. People seek out FF48 because it's a true first appearance. People seek out Hulk 181 over 180 because it's more valuable. However, 180 is clearly the first time Wolvie appears

 

This is a bit of a tautology; 181 is more valuable because it's more sought after, and more sought after because it's valuable?

 

The 180/181 price spread will never make sense to me, regardless of the (rather ) battle cover and full story. 180 should be the more valuable book, or they should at least be relatively equal, to be consistent with the first appearance logic most of the rest of the hobby seems to abide by.

 

Meaningless cameo at the end of/buried in a book < full story appearance 99.999% of the time.

 

Welcome to comic book collecting 101.

 

-J.

 

Thanks, I'm excited to be here. Just started my time payments on a Spectacular Spider-Man 200 in 9.6 (FOIL COVER!) and I'm eyeing a raw 9.4 Darkhawk 1, though I don't want to get too ahead of myself.

 

 

-J.

[slym2none]

Theres a simple way to make IH180 blow up over 181

Marvel make a 2nd print of 180 with 3-3500 copies and put this on the cover

 

 

I have said it before and I will say it again in the future, I am sure:

 

I don't care one whit if 181 is worth more. I understand it's the more popular issue, what with Wolverine being on the cover. It's people who dismiss #180 as the first appearance that drive me batty. Those same people inevitable call 181 his "first full appearance", which in this case, just means "second appearance".

 

Call 180 what you want, from a "cameo" to a "next issue teaser" to "meaningless" - it is still Wolverine's very first appearance. You cannot argue that, and if you do, you're crazier than a mess-house rat.

 

 

 

 

-slym