A question of....etiquette?

[Sqeggs]

Hi everyone, looking for some advice on a couple raw books I purchased from a dealer at WW Chicago 2015. These just got the shipped/safe status update from CGC and are coming back well under the estimated raw grade from the seller. Books in question are an Iron Man 55 sold to me as a 9.2 raw, graded by CGC as an 8.0 and a Showcase 55 sold to me as a 9.2, graded by CGC an 8.5. Comic prices being what they are today, I paid 9.2+ prices for both books, to the tune of over $2500. That being said, these are worth no where near what I paid. What I am asking is, is that the breaks with comics? Win some/lose some? Or would you approach the seller and ask for some sort of recompense? Any advice is appreciated as always.

 

A slabbed 9.2 will nearly always sell for more than a raw 9.2 plus grading fees. So when I'm looking at higher dollar high-grade raw books, I always ponder why it was that the dealer didn't get the book slabbed.

 

Sometimes there's a reasonable explanation, particularly at a con where a dealer may have just bought a collection of raw books. Other times, though, the dealer may, in fact, doubt that the book he's calling a 9.2 will actually grade out at 9.2.

 

It's regrettably not even unknown that a dealer will crack out a book that was slabbed with a lower grade and sell it raw at a higher grade.

 

We live in a fallen world!

 

Practically, though, I would contact the dealer about this. His reaction either way will provide you with useful information as you consider whether you want to buy from him in the future.

 

Edited to add: Did you get the books pressed? These days some dealers seem to grade raw books as they expect the grades to be after the book has been pressed.

[youmechooz]

This is why I never pay CGC prices for RAW books and I don't sell RAW books at CGC prices, although I see more dealers doing this.

 

Unless the seller can guarantee the grade, I'll be assuming the risk of restoration and the cost of grading, so I need a buffer.

+100

next time, don't pay slab prices for a raw book.

sorry to hear you are out money

[Diamonddave]

Hi everyone, looking for some advice on a couple raw books I purchased from a dealer at WW Chicago 2015. These just got the shipped/safe status update from CGC and are coming back well under the estimated raw grade from the seller. Books in question are an Iron Man 55 sold to me as a 9.2 raw, graded by CGC as an 8.0 and a Showcase 55 sold to me as a 9.2, graded by CGC an 8.5. Comic prices being what they are today, I paid 9.2+ prices for both books, to the tune of over $2500. That being said, these are worth no where near what I paid. What I am asking is, is that the breaks with comics? Win some/lose some? Or would you approach the seller and ask for some sort of recompense? Any advice is appreciated as always.

 

A slabbed 9.2 will nearly always sell for more than a raw 9.2 plus grading fees. So when I'm looking at higher dollar high-grade raw books, I always ponder why it was that the dealer didn't get the book slabbed.

 

Sometimes there's a reasonable explanation, particularly at a con where a dealer may have just bought a collection of raw books. Other times, though, the dealer may, in fact, doubt that the book he's calling a 9.2 will actually grade out at 9.2.

 

It's regrettably not even unknown that a dealer will crack out a book that was slabbed with a lower grade and sell it raw at a higher grade.

 

We live in a fallen world!

 

Practically, though, I would contact the dealer about this. His reaction either way will provide you with useful information as you consider whether you want to buy from him in the future.

 

Edited to add: Did you get the books pressed? These days some dealers seem to grade raw books as they expect the grades to be after the book has been pressed.

Unpressed, I didn't see anything a press might improve.

[thirdgreenham]

Hi everyone, looking for some advice on a couple raw books I purchased from a dealer at WW Chicago 2015. These just got the shipped/safe status update from CGC and are coming back well under the estimated raw grade from the seller. Books in question are an Iron Man 55 sold to me as a 9.2 raw, graded by CGC as an 8.0 and a Showcase 55 sold to me as a 9.2, graded by CGC an 8.5. Comic prices being what they are today, I paid 9.2+ prices for both books, to the tune of over $2500. That being said, these are worth no where near what I paid. What I am asking is, is that the breaks with comics? Win some/lose some? Or would you approach the seller and ask for some sort of recompense? Any advice is appreciated as always.

If you bought them from me and the grades were that far off you would simply give me call and I would refund not only your sale cost but also your grading and shipping costs. I wouldn't want you to be out of pocket or unhappy at all. That's how we do it at Bedrock City.

 

 

But you didn't buy those from me, so I guess you should call the other guy and see how they handle it.

 

Holy smokes!!!

 

what shop is yours again?

[thecopperagekids]

I'd mention it to the dealer. Do it quietly and not in a confrontational manner and perhaps he will give you a break on a future purchase. As it stands now, he's lost you as a future customer so letting him know what happened might result in a win for both of you. You get a discounted book and he regains a customer. Guys that drop that kind of coin at a show are worth trying to keep., imho.

 

+1 to this and Bedrock's response.

 

I know how to grade to CGC standards, and when I sell raw books on eBay as a 9.8, I make damn certain they are 9.8's.

 

I sold 4 copies of Preacher #42 as 9.8's about half a year ago on eBay at $45 per copy, got positive feedback from each of the 4 buyers.....I pressed all 4 copies, even dry cleaned the UPC boxes, to hedge the grades at 9.8.

 

Not to say that I haven't been wrong, it is impossible to assign grades to raw books and have them come back from CGC at the grades you assined, every time.

 

If it is a $45 book, a $450 book or a $900 book etc etc, I'd refund the buyer, if my grading was not up to par.

 

However, I would never sell a high dollar book like IM 55, unslabbed.I would dry clean, press and sub it , then get full FMV for the book, without any question.That is where this dealer effed up.

 

It is rare to get the equivelent of CGC graded 9.2 prices for a raw "9.2".....a dealer would be leaving hundreds on the table, 99% of the time.

 

Selling bigger tickets raw, is an invitation to disaster.

 

The books could both have gotten spine tics after the buyer bought them, during shipment or even while in the buyer's possesion, before being shipped to CGC.A million things could have happened...or the dealer and buyer were both off the mark on their assigned grades.

 

This is another good reason why every book that is subbed should be fully insured, with FC & BC scans taken, before being shipped out.

 

The OP should post up pics of the books, and graders's notes, in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LordRahl]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

I completely agree. As others have said, the OP had the chance to examine the books in person and agreed with the grades. At that point, it's on him. IF these had been restored however, it's on the dealer. Even 6-8 months later.

[Diamonddave]

Notes I can provide, I subbed the books at C2 so I didn't need to take pics before shipping.

 

Iron Man 55 2/73 Marvel Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.0 CREAM TO OFF-WHITE Jim Starlin and Mike Esposito art

Jim Starlin and Joe Sinnott cover Starfox, Kronos and the Blood Brothers.

Full Top Back Cover Indent

Full Top Front Cover Small Multiple Crease Breaks Color

 

 

Showcase 55 3-4/65 D.C. Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.5 OFF-WHITE TO WHITE Murphy Anderson cover and art

Origin of Hourman and Dr. Fate in text.

Left Bottom Whole Book Small Crunch

 

And for the record I've reached out to the dealer and we are proceeding once the books are in hand and I can get them pictures to go with the notes.

[Vger7]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

I completely agree. As others have said, the OP had the chance to examine the books in person and agreed with the grades. At that point, it's on him. IF these had been restored however, it's on the dealer. Even 6-8 months later.

 

But restoration can be invisible to the naked eye. How is the dealer or the buyer supposed to know? At the end of the day, like grading, isn't it a matter of judgement?

[jsilverjanet]

I'd mention it to the dealer. Do it quietly and not in a confrontational manner and perhaps he will give you a break on a future purchase. As it stands now, he's lost you as a future customer so letting him know what happened might result in a win for both of you. You get a discounted book and he regains a customer. Guys that drop that kind of coin at a show are worth trying to keep., imho.

 

+1 to this and Bedrock's response.

 

I know how to grade to CGC standards, and when I sell raw books on eBay as a 9.8, I make damn certain they are 9.8's.

 

I sold 4 copies of Preacher #42 as 9.8's about half a year ago on eBay at $45 per copy, got positive feedback from each of the 4 buyers.....I pressed all 4 copies, even dry cleaned the UPC boxes, to hedge the grades at 9.8.

 

Not to say that I haven't been wrong, it is impossible to assign grades to raw books and have them come back from CGC at the grades you assined, every time.

 

If it is a $45 book, a $450 book or a $900 book etc etc, I'd refund the buyer, if my grading was not up to par.

 

However, I would never sell a high dollar book like IM 55, unslabbed.I would dry clean, press and sub it , then get full FMV for the book, without any question.That is where this dealer effed up.

 

It is rare to get the equivelent of CGC graded 9.2 prices for a raw "9.2".....a dealer would be leaving hundreds on the table, 99% of the time.

 

Selling bigger tickets raw, is an invitation to disaster.

 

The books could both have gotten spine tics after the buyer bought them, during shipment or even while in the buyer's possesion, before being shipped to CGC.A million things could have happened...or the dealer and buyer were both off the mark on their assigned grades.

 

This is another good reason why every book that is subbed should be fully insured, with FC & BC scans taken, before being shipped out.

 

The OP should post up pics of the books, and graders's notes, in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mods notified.

 

No mention of books at Cgc, pressing schedule, upcoming shows or mylites, fullbacks etc

 

Someone has hacked into Caks account

[LordRahl]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

I completely agree. As others have said, the OP had the chance to examine the books in person and agreed with the grades. At that point, it's on him. IF these had been restored however, it's on the dealer. Even 6-8 months later.

 

But restoration can be invisible to the naked eye. How is the dealer or the buyer supposed to know? At the end of the day, like grading, isn't it a matter of judgement?

 

Grade is subjective. To everyone. Anyone, including CGC, can grade a book a 9.2 on one day and a 9.0 or 9.4 on a different day. This is just fundamental to grading, it is subjective... always.

 

Restoration is not subjective. It is either there or it isn't. That does not change (unless you actually get it removed). Yes, it can be invisible to the naked eye. But if a dealer is selling high grade, high dollar books, it is on him to do his due diligence on resto. If he isn't good enough to spot it, get it graded. Or accept returns if it is found later. Expecting a collector that does not have nearly as much experience as any dealer in looking at books to spot resto is unrealistic. Especially at a convention with poor lighting.

[DR.X]

But you didn't buy those from me, so I guess you should call the other guy and see how they handle it.

 

+1

 

And that should have been the first step before starting a thread about it. Most of the dealers here back up what they sell. Hey Richard, I'll see you in Chi Town later in the year.

[Vger7]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

I completely agree. As others have said, the OP had the chance to examine the books in person and agreed with the grades. At that point, it's on him. IF these had been restored however, it's on the dealer. Even 6-8 months later.

 

But restoration can be invisible to the naked eye. How is the dealer or the buyer supposed to know? At the end of the day, like grading, isn't it a matter of judgement?

 

Grade is subjective. To everyone. Anyone, including CGC, can grade a book a 9.2 on one day and a 9.0 or 9.4 on a different day. This is just fundamental to grading, it is subjective... always.

 

Restoration is not subjective. It is either there or it isn't. That does not change (unless you actually get it removed). Yes, it can be invisible to the naked eye. But if a dealer is selling high grade, high dollar books, it is on him to do his due diligence on resto. If he isn't good enough to spot it, get it graded. Or accept returns if it is found later. Expecting a collector that does not have nearly as much experience as any dealer in looking at books to spot resto is unrealistic. Especially at a convention with poor lighting.

 

Hypothetically:

 

1. What if the seller examines a book closely and determines that the book has not been restored. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as purple. What you're saying is that the seller is on hook?

 

2. Seller examines a book closely and determines that the book is a 9.4. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as an 8.5. In this case, the seller is not on the hook?

 

Interesting. Is this the consensus here?

[thecopperagekids]

Notes I can provide, I subbed the books at C2 so I didn't need to take pics before shipping.

 

Iron Man 55 2/73 Marvel Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.0 CREAM TO OFF-WHITE Jim Starlin and Mike Esposito art

Jim Starlin and Joe Sinnott cover Starfox, Kronos and the Blood Brothers.

Full Top Back Cover Indent

Full Top Front Cover Small Multiple Crease Breaks Color

 

 

Showcase 55 3-4/65 D.C. Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.5 OFF-WHITE TO WHITE Murphy Anderson cover and art

Origin of Hourman and Dr. Fate in text.

Left Bottom Whole Book Small Crunch

 

And for the record I've reached out to the dealer and we are proceeding once the books are in hand and I can get them pictures to go with the notes.

 

Pics should be taken regardless, before subbing books into CGC.

 

Based on the notes alone, a press would have helped both books.....odds are that dry cleaning would have also helped.

 

IM 55 full BC indent....notes do not indicate any CB.....pressing would, at the very least, remove the indent.

 

Showcase 55 "whole book small crunch"....likely breaks color but regardless, pressing the "crunch" out would make the book lie flat.

 

Unless the books were already dry cleaned, it is very rare for older books to not have issues with light amounts of surface dirt.

 

[thirdgreenham]

I'd mention it to the dealer. Do it quietly and not in a confrontational manner and perhaps he will give you a break on a future purchase. As it stands now, he's lost you as a future customer so letting him know what happened might result in a win for both of you. You get a discounted book and he regains a customer. Guys that drop that kind of coin at a show are worth trying to keep., imho.

 

+1 to this and Bedrock's response.

 

I know how to grade to CGC standards, and when I sell raw books on eBay as a 9.8, I make damn certain they are 9.8's.

 

I sold 4 copies of Preacher #42 as 9.8's about half a year ago on eBay at $45 per copy, got positive feedback from each of the 4 buyers.....I pressed all 4 copies, even dry cleaned the UPC boxes, to hedge the grades at 9.8.

 

Not to say that I haven't been wrong, it is impossible to assign grades to raw books and have them come back from CGC at the grades you assined, every time.

 

If it is a $45 book, a $450 book or a $900 book etc etc, I'd refund the buyer, if my grading was not up to par.

 

However, I would never sell a high dollar book like IM 55, unslabbed.I would dry clean, press and sub it , then get full FMV for the book, without any question.That is where this dealer effed up.

 

It is rare to get the equivelent of CGC graded 9.2 prices for a raw "9.2".....a dealer would be leaving hundreds on the table, 99% of the time.

 

Selling bigger tickets raw, is an invitation to disaster.

 

The books could both have gotten spine tics after the buyer bought them, during shipment or even while in the buyer's possesion, before being shipped to CGC.A million things could have happened...or the dealer and buyer were both off the mark on their assigned grades.

 

This is another good reason why every book that is subbed should be fully insured, with FC & BC scans taken, before being shipped out.

 

The OP should post up pics of the books, and graders's notes, in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did the dealer eff up if he got 9.2 prices for an 8.0?

[shadroch]

What happens if a book comers back Conserved, instead of Restoration.

[LordRahl]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

I completely agree. As others have said, the OP had the chance to examine the books in person and agreed with the grades. At that point, it's on him. IF these had been restored however, it's on the dealer. Even 6-8 months later.

 

But restoration can be invisible to the naked eye. How is the dealer or the buyer supposed to know? At the end of the day, like grading, isn't it a matter of judgement?

 

Grade is subjective. To everyone. Anyone, including CGC, can grade a book a 9.2 on one day and a 9.0 or 9.4 on a different day. This is just fundamental to grading, it is subjective... always.

 

Restoration is not subjective. It is either there or it isn't. That does not change (unless you actually get it removed). Yes, it can be invisible to the naked eye. But if a dealer is selling high grade, high dollar books, it is on him to do his due diligence on resto. If he isn't good enough to spot it, get it graded. Or accept returns if it is found later. Expecting a collector that does not have nearly as much experience as any dealer in looking at books to spot resto is unrealistic. Especially at a convention with poor lighting.

 

Hypothetically:

 

1. What if the seller examines a book closely and determines that the book has not been restored. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as purple. What you're saying is that the seller is on hook?

 

2. Seller examines a book closely and determines that the book is a 9.4. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as an 8.5. In this case, the seller is not on the hook?

 

Interesting. Is this the consensus here?

 

What I consider a 9.4, what you consider a 9.4 and what anyone else we might ask considers a 9.4 are liable to not be consistent. So, yes if you and I agree that a book is a 9.4 during a sales transaction, it's done. Just because someone else later says "this is a 9.2" doesn't invalidate the fact that you and I agreed that it is a 9.4 for the purpose of our deal. Grading = subjective. There is no "right" answer. Even the "professionals" change their mind... frequently.

 

That is not how resto works. A book either is or isn't restored. There is no subjectivity about that. Because I can't spot it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that I don't have the skills to spot it. If you are a professional dealer, you have to either be sure that there isn't work done on a book or get a professional to do it for you if you aren't good enough to do it yourself. Or take returns months later once the buyer has had the pros look at it. Is what it is... why should the buyer take all the risk? Especially when the buyer is likely the least qualified person in the equation to spot resto.

[LordRahl]

What happens if a book comers back Conserved, instead of Restoration.

 

Same difference in my book. Probably easier to spot though isn't it? So a dealer should be able to catch this most (all?) the time.

[MrBedrock]

Hey Richard, I'll see you in Chi Town later in the year.

Looking forward to seeing you there Tim.

[WilliamG.Staggers]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

I completely agree. As others have said, the OP had the chance to examine the books in person and agreed with the grades. At that point, it's on him. IF these had been restored however, it's on the dealer. Even 6-8 months later.

 

But restoration can be invisible to the naked eye. How is the dealer or the buyer supposed to know? At the end of the day, like grading, isn't it a matter of judgement?

 

Grade is subjective. To everyone. Anyone, including CGC, can grade a book a 9.2 on one day and a 9.0 or 9.4 on a different day. This is just fundamental to grading, it is subjective... always.

 

Restoration is not subjective. It is either there or it isn't. That does not change (unless you actually get it removed). Yes, it can be invisible to the naked eye. But if a dealer is selling high grade, high dollar books, it is on him to do his due diligence on resto. If he isn't good enough to spot it, get it graded. Or accept returns if it is found later. Expecting a collector that does not have nearly as much experience as any dealer in looking at books to spot resto is unrealistic. Especially at a convention with poor lighting.

 

Hypothetically:

 

1. What if the seller examines a book closely and determines that the book has not been restored. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as purple. What you're saying is that the seller is on hook?

 

2. Seller examines a book closely and determines that the book is a 9.4. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as an 8.5. In this case, the seller is not on the hook?

 

Interesting. Is this the consensus here?

 

What I consider a 9.4, what you consider a 9.4 and what anyone else we might ask considers a 9.4 are liable to not be consistent. So, yes if you and I agree that a book is a 9.4 during a sales transaction, it's done. Just because someone else later says "this is a 9.2" doesn't invalidate the fact that you and I agreed that it is a 9.4 for the purpose of our deal. Grading = subjective. There is no "right" answer. Even the "professionals" change their mind... frequently.

 

That is not how resto works. A book either is or isn't restored. There is no subjectivity about that. Because I can't spot it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that I don't have the skills to spot it. If you are a professional dealer, you have to either be sure that there isn't work done on a book or get a professional to do it for you if you aren't good enough to do it yourself. Or take returns months later once the buyer has had the pros look at it. Is what it is... why should the buyer take all the risk? Especially when the buyer is likely the least qualified person in the equation to spot resto.

 

+1

Buying from a dealer at a show is the only way I'll buy SA raw books because I'm trying to avoid any restoration that I would eventually end up with on eBay. Dealers are supposed to maintain a higher standard. The dealer is definitely accountable.

[rapid08]

Ive bought several books from 'reputable' dealers here on the boards where grades were off 1.5-2.0 points. I figured its to much hassle to dispute and simply put those sellers on my ignore list. It's partially my fault for not doing a thorough inspection of the books but I'd expect dealers with a reputation to be somewhat accurate.