A question of....etiquette?

[Vger7]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

I completely agree. As others have said, the OP had the chance to examine the books in person and agreed with the grades. At that point, it's on him. IF these had been restored however, it's on the dealer. Even 6-8 months later.

 

But restoration can be invisible to the naked eye. How is the dealer or the buyer supposed to know? At the end of the day, like grading, isn't it a matter of judgement?

 

Grade is subjective. To everyone. Anyone, including CGC, can grade a book a 9.2 on one day and a 9.0 or 9.4 on a different day. This is just fundamental to grading, it is subjective... always.

 

Restoration is not subjective. It is either there or it isn't. That does not change (unless you actually get it removed). Yes, it can be invisible to the naked eye. But if a dealer is selling high grade, high dollar books, it is on him to do his due diligence on resto. If he isn't good enough to spot it, get it graded. Or accept returns if it is found later. Expecting a collector that does not have nearly as much experience as any dealer in looking at books to spot resto is unrealistic. Especially at a convention with poor lighting.

 

Hypothetically:

 

1. What if the seller examines a book closely and determines that the book has not been restored. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as purple. What you're saying is that the seller is on hook?

 

2. Seller examines a book closely and determines that the book is a 9.4. A buyer comes a long and agrees. Book is submitted, returns as an 8.5. In this case, the seller is not on the hook?

 

Interesting. Is this the consensus here?

 

What I consider a 9.4, what you consider a 9.4 and what anyone else we might ask considers a 9.4 are liable to not be consistent. So, yes if you and I agree that a book is a 9.4 during a sales transaction, it's done. Just because someone else later says "this is a 9.2" doesn't invalidate the fact that you and I agreed that it is a 9.4 for the purpose of our deal. Grading = subjective. There is no "right" answer. Even the "professionals" change their mind... frequently.

 

That is not how resto works. A book either is or isn't restored. There is no subjectivity about that. Because I can't spot it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that I don't have the skills to spot it. If you are a professional dealer, you have to either be sure that there isn't work done on a book or get a professional to do it for you if you aren't good enough to do it yourself. Or take returns months later once the buyer has had the pros look at it. Is what it is... why should the buyer take all the risk? Especially when the buyer is likely the least qualified person in the equation to spot resto.

 

Normally I would dispute this since the point in both scenarios is that they can be equally unknown at the time of purchase, despite whether something is proven one way or another in the end. But the last time I disagreed with the consensus here I was brought up on charges and dragged through the mud. One thing is for sure... the logic in Bartertown is, if nothing else... consistent. Bust a deal, face the wheel:

 

[WilliamG.Staggers]

Ive bought several books from 'reputable' dealers here on the boards where grades were off 1.5-2.0 points. I figured its to much hassle to dispute and simply put those sellers on my ignore list. It's partially my fault for not doing a thorough inspection of the books but I'd expect dealers with a reputation to be somewhat accurate.

 

It can also be hard to guess a grade as a buyer when your only looking at scans of the book. I will always take full responsibility for agreeing to buy a book with an off grade that I overlooked but it's a bummer to get a bad deal off of a 1000+ 100% eBay seller. I don't have any experience buying on the boards.

[Psithyrus]

I'm not good enough of a grader to grade a raw book that accurately. Most people I see grading at cons use NM, NM-, etc...

 

Go look at the "Hey buddy, could you spare a grade" forum. Look at how people are grading. Most of the time there is a general consensus of opinions and that can help point out how certain grades look.

 

It is especially helpful when the book gets officially graded and the OP posts what it came back as.

 

That's a good place to start, for sure. I was doing that, and was almost always harsher than the actual grade. I think I've made pretty good progress, but I'm always learning. I'm lucky to have very experienced graders right down the street, and I always bounce it off of them if I'm not sure.

[mschmidt]

Unless you specifically requested and received some sort of confirmation that the dealer grades would comport with CGC grades, I do not believe that you have a beef. You had the opportunity to review the books, and you agreed to pay what was asked based upon what was before you.

 

I am sorry for your negative experience, but that is how I see it.

 

 

+1 You plays the game, you takes your chances.

 

What if they had come back with higher grades than the dealer had on them. Would you be looking to give him some extra money?

 

+2

 

If you aren't a solid grader yourself, either stick to buying already-slabbed copies or limit your purchasing to dealers who actually grade to CGC standards.

[revat]

I would say if you're buying or selling high dollar books, you should get the return policies for grading And/or restoration very very clear before you consummate the deal

[Red84]

Hi everyone, looking for some advice on a couple raw books I purchased from a dealer at WW Chicago 2015. These just got the shipped/safe status update from CGC and are coming back well under the estimated raw grade from the seller. Books in question are an Iron Man 55 sold to me as a 9.2 raw, graded by CGC as an 8.0 and a Showcase 55 sold to me as a 9.2, graded by CGC an 8.5. Comic prices being what they are today, I paid 9.2+ prices for both books, to the tune of over $2500. That being said, these are worth no where near what I paid. What I am asking is, is that the breaks with comics? Win some/lose some? Or would you approach the seller and ask for some sort of recompense? Any advice is appreciated as always.

 

When you buy a raw book you are buying a raw book. It is your responsibility to review the book and grade it yourself before buying. If the book had come back a 9.8 would you be considering approaching the seller?

 

Now if there was restoration that would be a different story as searching for restoration is far more time intensive and the seller should be bound to getting that right.

[TheShadowKnows]

Hi everyone, looking for some advice on a couple raw books I purchased from a dealer at WW Chicago 2015. These just got the shipped/safe status update from CGC and are coming back well under the estimated raw grade from the seller. Books in question are an Iron Man 55 sold to me as a 9.2 raw, graded by CGC as an 8.0 and a Showcase 55 sold to me as a 9.2, graded by CGC an 8.5. Comic prices being what they are today, I paid 9.2+ prices for both books, to the tune of over $2500. That being said, these are worth no where near what I paid. What I am asking is, is that the breaks with comics? Win some/lose some? Or would you approach the seller and ask for some sort of recompense? Any advice is appreciated as always.

If you bought them from me and the grades were that far off you would simply give me call and I would refund not only your sale cost but also your grading and shipping costs. I wouldn't want you to be out of pocket or unhappy at all. That's how we do it at Bedrock City.

 

 

But you didn't buy those from me, so I guess you should call the other guy and see how they handle it.

And you could of sold him breath mints.

 

[jimjum12]

I'll chalk it up as an expensive lesson learned, be more critical of raw books regardless of the seller and move on.

 

Sadly, this is probably the only thing for you now.

 

Having the chance to view them before you bought them was when you should have graded them yourself and figured if it was all worthwhile.

 

Some dealers don't send many of their books to CGC, for one of two reasons. 1. Cost 2. Their raw grade is higher than what CGC would grade it.

 

 

...you forgot # 3, Andy......... turnaround time. I also have to agree with what the others have said...... due diligence. I love raw books, myself...... but if for some reason I want a slabbed copy, I go for one that already is. There are some dealers who will guarantee a grade or a grade range ..... but that is something to discuss at the time of the purchase. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[thecopperagekids]

I'd mention it to the dealer. Do it quietly and not in a confrontational manner and perhaps he will give you a break on a future purchase. As it stands now, he's lost you as a future customer so letting him know what happened might result in a win for both of you. You get a discounted book and he regains a customer. Guys that drop that kind of coin at a show are worth trying to keep., imho.

 

+1 to this and Bedrock's response.

 

I know how to grade to CGC standards, and when I sell raw books on eBay as a 9.8, I make damn certain they are 9.8's.

 

I sold 4 copies of Preacher #42 as 9.8's about half a year ago on eBay at $45 per copy, got positive feedback from each of the 4 buyers.....I pressed all 4 copies, even dry cleaned the UPC boxes, to hedge the grades at 9.8.

 

Not to say that I haven't been wrong, it is impossible to assign grades to raw books and have them come back from CGC at the grades you assined, every time.

 

If it is a $45 book, a $450 book or a $900 book etc etc, I'd refund the buyer, if my grading was not up to par.

 

However, I would never sell a high dollar book like IM 55, unslabbed.I would dry clean, press and sub it , then get full FMV for the book, without any question.That is where this dealer effed up.

 

It is rare to get the equivelent of CGC graded 9.2 prices for a raw "9.2".....a dealer would be leaving hundreds on the table, 99% of the time.

 

Selling bigger tickets raw, is an invitation to disaster.

 

The books could both have gotten spine tics after the buyer bought them, during shipment or even while in the buyer's possesion, before being shipped to CGC.A million things could have happened...or the dealer and buyer were both off the mark on their assigned grades.

 

This is another good reason why every book that is subbed should be fully insured, with FC & BC scans taken, before being shipped out.

 

The OP should post up pics of the books, and graders's notes, in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did the dealer eff up if he got 9.2 prices for an 8.0?

 

 

Yes, he effed up.Not in the short term but his mistake has caught up with him.

 

He now will have to issue a refund, cover CGC fees or send a partial refund, accounting for the differential between 9.2 and 8.0 AND grading fees.He would have done better financially, if the books were slabbed in the first place....and would also not have this headache 8 months after the sale.

 

 

 

I don't place all of the blame in the dealer, the buyer shares responsibility.But if you want to be known as a reputable dealer, you have to make things right with your buyers.That means taking a hit , if you sell overgraded raw books.

 

If the dealer had the books slabbed, none of this would have happened.

 

Which brings me back to my point, don't sell high dollar books, raw.

 

Of course, the drawback with having books graded is the additiinal time & money the dealer has to invest but ultimately, it pays off.

 

Alternately, the dealer could have sent the 2 raw books to ComicLink and had CL front the grading fees, before CL put the 2 books up for auction.Dunno if ComicConnect fronts geading fees as I have yet to go this route.

 

When I do get around to pressing the higher grade SA books I have , that is the way that I will move them.

 

 

 

 

[IntoAnother]

[joeypost]

Notes I can provide, I subbed the books at C2 so I didn't need to take pics before shipping.

 

Iron Man 55 2/73 Marvel Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.0 CREAM TO OFF-WHITE Jim Starlin and Mike Esposito art

Jim Starlin and Joe Sinnott cover Starfox, Kronos and the Blood Brothers.

Full Top Back Cover Indent

Full Top Front Cover Small Multiple Crease Breaks Color

 

 

Showcase 55 3-4/65 D.C. Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.5 OFF-WHITE TO WHITE Murphy Anderson cover and art

Origin of Hourman and Dr. Fate in text.

Left Bottom Whole Book Small Crunch

 

And for the record I've reached out to the dealer and we are proceeding once the books are in hand and I can get them pictures to go with the notes.

 

Based on these notes and taking into consideration the way CGC has tightened up their grading 9.2's and even 9.0's would have been out of the question. With that said, the OP might be able to get these up a few grades if they were pressed.

[youmechooz]

Notes I can provide, I subbed the books at C2 so I didn't need to take pics before shipping.

 

Iron Man 55 2/73 Marvel Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.0 CREAM TO OFF-WHITE Jim Starlin and Mike Esposito art

Jim Starlin and Joe Sinnott cover Starfox, Kronos and the Blood Brothers.

Full Top Back Cover Indent

Full Top Front Cover Small Multiple Crease Breaks Color

 

 

Showcase 55 3-4/65 D.C. Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.5 OFF-WHITE TO WHITE Murphy Anderson cover and art

Origin of Hourman and Dr. Fate in text.

Left Bottom Whole Book Small Crunch

 

And for the record I've reached out to the dealer and we are proceeding once the books are in hand and I can get them pictures to go with the notes.

 

Based on these notes and taking into consideration the way CGC has tightened up their grading 9.2's and even 9.0's would have been out of the question. With that said, the OP might be able to get these up a few grades if they were pressed.

But theres nobody here who can press a comic goofus.

[joeypost]

Notes I can provide, I subbed the books at C2 so I didn't need to take pics before shipping.

 

Iron Man 55 2/73 Marvel Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.0 CREAM TO OFF-WHITE Jim Starlin and Mike Esposito art

Jim Starlin and Joe Sinnott cover Starfox, Kronos and the Blood Brothers.

Full Top Back Cover Indent

Full Top Front Cover Small Multiple Crease Breaks Color

 

 

Showcase 55 3-4/65 D.C. Comics Universal Grader Notes 8.5 OFF-WHITE TO WHITE Murphy Anderson cover and art

Origin of Hourman and Dr. Fate in text.

Left Bottom Whole Book Small Crunch

 

And for the record I've reached out to the dealer and we are proceeding once the books are in hand and I can get them pictures to go with the notes.

 

Based on these notes and taking into consideration the way CGC has tightened up their grading 9.2's and even 9.0's would have been out of the question. With that said, the OP might be able to get these up a few grades if they were pressed.

But theres nobody here who can press a comic goofus.

 

Goofus? Is that a Southern thing?

[Prince Namor]

Tons of threads about how maybe people should probably stick to fine to nm mindsets instead of being specific. Any dealer who grades as good as cgc would probably be working for them yeah?

 

If they can grade as good as CGC, they can make more money buying and selling than they can working for CGC.

 

Going through my own books now trying to find stuff to submit and all I can do is cross my fingers. What looks flawless to me could be chock full of defects under the strict guidelines. I don't have the equipment or skill to grade at that level. I doubt anyone at a Con does either. Just skill and experience. Trust who you will

 

Sung to the tune of George Micheal's 'I Want Your Sex'

 

There's grades that you guess

And grades that you know

There's dealers you can trust

And dealers that you don't

There's little tics that hide

And production flaws that you show

Sometimes you think it's a 9.8

But it's not and that's just the way it goes

 

Didn't think about it that way, Chuck. Good point, they probably could make a lot more money.

 

As for the song, spot on

 

 

I've been CAK'ed. Why don't the people I want to ignore me don't?

 

As for equipment, there are lights and stuff they use to detect things better? I'd like to say UV but I can only speculate because I haven't researched the subject to any depth. Just thinking aloud. My statement was not to detract from any dealers who definitely know their grading. How many books have I scanned to have my peers give me subjective advice on? Quite a few. I value everyone's input. Just stating that standing there, Looking at a book, it's all subjective. You submit, pow, there is the grade, professionally done and paid for. The end.

 

Let's go get laid.

 

With a button to switch over to UV, I could make a fortune!

 

Though this is my favorite...$4.00 shipped on Amazon!

[MetalPSI]

4 dolla you say? Shipped you say? I may take a gander...

 

[wombat]

Buy slabbed an avoid the whole mess if that is what you really want.

[lizards2]

Make certain to check over the graders notes to see if there was something that was either missed when you viewed them last or maybe something that was hammered harder by CGC than what you may have thought was warranted.

Or, check them for damage not present when shipped. They may have been damaged in transit, or one of the graders might have spilled his bongwater on them, or greased them up with some Nacho Cheese Dorito grease.

[lizards2]

I know one local buyer who sent a batch of GA books in and they all received a purple label. He went back to the dealer 6-8 months later and demanded his money back. If he didn't comply, he would bad mouth the dealer all over town. The dealer ended up giving him a full refund. However, I really felt bad for the dealer. He had no idea they were restored, it was 6-8 months after the fact and that's part of the risk of when buying raw books unless something is agreed upon up front.

 

Resto is an entirely different animal

 

If you can't reasonably detect restoration, you probably shouldn't be surprised when this happens. In fact, you're asking for it.

[WilliamG.Staggers]

Tons of threads about how maybe people should probably stick to fine to nm mindsets instead of being specific. Any dealer who grades as good as cgc would probably be working for them yeah?

 

If they can grade as good as CGC, they can make more money buying and selling than they can working for CGC.

 

Going through my own books now trying to find stuff to submit and all I can do is cross my fingers. What looks flawless to me could be chock full of defects under the strict guidelines. I don't have the equipment or skill to grade at that level. I doubt anyone at a Con does either. Just skill and experience. Trust who you will

 

Sung to the tune of George Micheal's 'I Want Your Sex'

 

There's grades that you guess

And grades that you know

There's dealers you can trust

And dealers that you don't

There's little tics that hide

And production flaws that you show

Sometimes you think it's a 9.8

But it's not and that's just the way it goes

 

Didn't think about it that way, Chuck. Good point, they probably could make a lot more money.

 

As for the song, spot on

 

 

I've been CAK'ed. Why don't the people I want to ignore me don't?

 

As for equipment, there are lights and stuff they use to detect things better? I'd like to say UV but I can only speculate because I haven't researched the subject to any depth. Just thinking aloud. My statement was not to detract from any dealers who definitely know their grading. How many books have I scanned to have my peers give me subjective advice on? Quite a few. I value everyone's input. Just stating that standing there, Looking at a book, it's all subjective. You submit, pow, there is the grade, professionally done and paid for. The end.

 

Let's go get laid.

 

With a button to switch over to UV, I could make a fortune!

 

Though this is my favorite...$4.00 shipped on Amazon!

 

Sold!

[thirdgreenham]

So, anyone know where I can buy one of these?