What percentage of the CGC census is ghosts?

[jimjum12]

The think of the census as a record of how many times the grading procedure has been carried out and what those results were. While a lot of good information can be gleaned from the census the exact numbers of slabs is something it could only give an educated guess about.

 

I would agree with 20% or more. Nothing to base that on either.

 

I would imagine the percentages would be misleading when averaged out across the Grading spectum ...... and the motivations would also play a big factor in a meaningful discussion ..... so far we have 3........ prefer raw, hoping to upgrade, and SS. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[LordRahl]

Thank you Blowie and Iceman.

 

When the old labels are included does that history get removed from the census?

 

Yes CGC will remove the census entry

[LordRahl]

Is it the norm to include the old label when subbing the book after it's been cracked for a signing or to be pressed?

 

If it's not, should it be?

 

* This is under the assumption that if included the old label would be removed from the census. *

 

Many moons ago there was a discount in you provided the old label. Now there is no benefit. I know a presser (not CCS) that keeps all labels he presses in case something comes up down the road. I think 20% is too high. Think of how many modern books that Dre et al sub just for 9.8 subscribers. Most that do get squiggles don't crack blue's (most). Most non mega key books don't get cpr'd unless there is a big financial gain to be made. Think <10% is far more reasonable heck maybe even 5% when you talk about all the books. Now if you talk just major keys your percent definitely goes up.

 

Valid point. I was not including moderns in my percentage. Probably not even copper. I'm mostly thinking Bronze/Silver/Gold where the books aren't plentiful to begin with. Not necessarily major keys though.

[1Cool]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

[mschmidt]

If I had to guess, I'd say at least 8% of all books graded. It seems that a good number of people do just buy the slab for the verification of the book then crack all of their books.

 

I'd say higher than that. Tons of blue label books get cracked for SS submissions, and the crack/press/resub game is off the charts.

 

You'd be surprised by how many people actually turn in their blue labels when doing SS books - it's a definite majority of the people doing books at shows. Same thing for pressing - most pressing resubs I see have either the label included or are still in the slab.

 

Personally, I return the label for any book I crack for SS.

[IntoAnother]

Thank you Blowie and Iceman.

 

When the old labels are included does that history get removed from the census?

 

Yes CGC will remove the census entry

 

Thank you

 

 

[mschmidt]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

 

I think it depends on your definition of "ghost" books. I probably have a couple hundred cracked-out CGC books in my personal collection, all of which have the CGC label in the back - these books still exist in the CGC census, but aren't technically slabbed anymore.

 

If you're talking specifically about books that have been cracked where the label has been discarded, wasn't included in the resub, etc, 20% of the census is waaay too high of a number.

[joeypost]

Personally I may have 250-300 labels here that I need to get over to CGC from CPR books. I always turn them in...eventually.

[bc]

The think of the census as a record of how many times the grading procedure has been carried out and what those results were. While a lot of good information can be gleaned from the census the exact numbers of slabs is something it could only give an educated guess about.

 

I would agree with 20% or more. Nothing to base that on either.

 

I would imagine the percentages would be misleading when averaged out across the Grading spectum ...... and the motivations would also play a big factor in a meaningful discussion ..... so far we have 3........ prefer raw, hoping to upgrade, and SS. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Another minor motivation is OCD. I have cracked other companies books and submitted them to CGC just so all the labels are consistent in that title. It might be rare for someone to do the reverse (crack a CGC to send to another slabber), but IF the competitions volume increases & quality is maintained it may happen. I agree it's a long shot.

 

Percent of ghosts? Increases with value & popularity of the book . As someone else mentioned, AF15 is probably in the higher ranges, but wouldn't be at all surprised if NM98, IH181, GSX1 all have that happen regularly as well. Overall, low single digit percentage of the entire population.

 

Great brain exercise !

-bc

[THE_BEYONDER]

If I had to guess, I'd say at least 8% of all books graded. It seems that a good number of people do just buy the slab for the verification of the book then crack all of their books.

 

I'd say higher than that. Tons of blue label books get cracked for SS submissions, and the crack/press/resub game is off the charts.

 

You'd be surprised by how many people actually turn in their blue labels when doing SS books - it's a definite majority of the people doing books at shows. Same thing for pressing - most pressing resubs I see have either the label included or are still in the slab.

 

Personally, I return the label for any book I crack for SS.

 

CGC really destroyed the incentive by eliminating the $5 credit for returning the labels.

[MustEatBrains]

Great question and I've wondered this as well. Wish CGC would reinstitute some incentive to have folks return the original label so the census is a tad more accurate. A little OT but census related, recently bought a CGC Marvel Spotlight 28 (30 cent variant) 8.5 SS by stan lee. After receiving the book I wanted to see how many were on the census. There were none. I'm planning on calling at some point to request a correction but had me wondering how many data entry errors there are compounding the problem. In the IT world we call this garbage in garbage out.

[chrisco37]

I have no possible way of knowing, but 20% seems like a high # to me.

 

10% would be a high end guess for me.

[LordRahl]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

 

I think it depends on your definition of "ghost" books. I probably have a couple hundred cracked-out CGC books in my personal collection, all of which have the CGC label in the back - these books still exist in the CGC census, but aren't technically slabbed anymore.

 

If you're talking specifically about books that have been cracked where the label has been discarded, wasn't included in the resub, etc, 20% of the census is waaay too high of a number.

 

A cracked out book sitting in someone's collection that still has the label with it is still a ghost. It is no longer slabbed. IF it were to be slabbed again, it would be slabbed as a new submission and a new entry created for that same book with whatever the new grade is (even if it's the same grade as the previous time). 1 book - 2 census entries = a ghost.

[Mio]

I have an envelope with about a dozen labels in it from (i) slabs that were broken in the mail, (ii) CPR and (iii) book taken out to read. And my collection is very small, about 35 CGC books.

[IntoAnother]

If I had to guess, I'd say at least 8% of all books graded. It seems that a good number of people do just buy the slab for the verification of the book then crack all of their books.

 

I'd say higher than that. Tons of blue label books get cracked for SS submissions, and the crack/press/resub game is off the charts.

 

You'd be surprised by how many people actually turn in their blue labels when doing SS books - it's a definite majority of the people doing books at shows. Same thing for pressing - most pressing resubs I see have either the label included or are still in the slab.

 

Personally, I return the label for any book I crack for SS.

 

CGC really destroyed the incentive by eliminating the $5 credit for returning the labels.

 

Perhaps this is something CGC should revisit.

 

As the census continues to be inflated by ghost slabs a loss of desirability is bound to happen due to the thought that a book in a certain grade is more common than it actually is. This doesn't strike me as a positive for the future of the hobby or CGC who accounts for a substantial amount of revenue by providing this service.

[valiantman]

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

36.5% of all books on the CGC census are 9.8 or higher.

[jimjum12]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

 

I think it depends on your definition of "ghost" books. I probably have a couple hundred cracked-out CGC books in my personal collection, all of which have the CGC label in the back - these books still exist in the CGC census, but aren't technically slabbed anymore.

 

If you're talking specifically about books that have been cracked where the label has been discarded, wasn't included in the resub, etc, 20% of the census is waaay too high of a number.

 

A cracked out book sitting in someone's collection that still has the label with it is still a ghost. It is no longer slabbed. IF it were to be slabbed again, it would be slabbed as a new submission and a new entry created for that same book with whatever the new grade is (even if it's the same grade as the previous time). 1 book - 2 census entries = a ghost.

 

...so true. Regardless of motivation, the census is in place to document the number of slabbed books. Personally, however, even though a book is no longer slabbed, I place a higher value on a raw book with the label included, if it's coming from someone I trust. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[paperheart]

maybe 5-10% but obviously going to skew wildly on certain books. i own 1200 slabs and have never cracked or resubbed w/o sending in a label (maybe 10 books total)

[LordRahl]

It will skew wildly on high grade Silver for sure. Schmell would account for a lot of that himself. How many times has he resubbed some books looking for that extra .2 bump? And based on the Pedigree JIM example I don't think he's turning in labels

[LordRahl]

Been thinking about this over the last couple of weeks and curious to see what people's thoughts are. How many census entries are ghosts? For the uninitiated, ghosts are entries in the census that are books that have been cracked out and either resubbed or are sitting raw in someone's collection and the label was never turned into CGC to get the entry removed. I know there is no way to know. No way to even make an "educated guess". But I'm just curious to see some discussion around this.

 

I would think it would skew heavier to the higher grades as that is where most of the CPR action takes place (I think). As the years go by I think the number gets bigger and bigger and makes the census less and less useful. But just how big is that number?

 

I'd think very few of the 9.8s and higher has been cracked out so that leaves pretty much everything else. I'd guess 20% of all the books are graded 9.8 considering how many modern/copper books get graded compared to older books. I'd guess 25% of sub 9.8 books get cracked for various reasons so that gives me 20% of all books are "ghost".

 

I think it depends on your definition of "ghost" books. I probably have a couple hundred cracked-out CGC books in my personal collection, all of which have the CGC label in the back - these books still exist in the CGC census, but aren't technically slabbed anymore.

 

If you're talking specifically about books that have been cracked where the label has been discarded, wasn't included in the resub, etc, 20% of the census is waaay too high of a number.

 

A cracked out book sitting in someone's collection that still has the label with it is still a ghost. It is no longer slabbed. IF it were to be slabbed again, it would be slabbed as a new submission and a new entry created for that same book with whatever the new grade is (even if it's the same grade as the previous time). 1 book - 2 census entries = a ghost.

 

...so true. Regardless of motivation, the census is in place to document the number of slabbed books. Personally, however, even though a book is no longer slabbed, I place a higher value on a raw book with the label included, if it's coming from someone I trust. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Oh absolutely. If it's a book I want, I would pay close to GPA for a book like that.