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Infinite Bronze War Thread
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Started by bronze johnny,

3,137 posts in this topic

Karma23

Karma23

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Posted

I really don't consider 168 to be the first appearance, it seems to be more of a generic tribute to all the unknowns of the war instead of this particualr character.

SSWS 154 gives a specific origin story for this particular guy.

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Jeffro.

Jeffro.

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I really don't consider 168 to be the first appearance, it seems to be more of a generic tribute to all the unknowns of the war instead of this particualr character.

 

You're right. It does come across that way. However, OS credits it as the 1st app.

 

I wonder what it says on a CGC label when an OAAW 168 gets graded?

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Karma23

Karma23

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I really don't consider 168 to be the first appearance, it seems to be more of a generic tribute to all the unknowns of the war instead of this particualr character.

 

You're right. It does come across that way. However, OS credits it as the 1st app.

 

I wonder what it says on a CGC label when an OAAW 168 gets graded?

 

I would bet that if OS credits 168 as the first appearance then CGC will as well hm

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bigfiver69

bigfiver69

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It's an interesting case... but I see the appearance in OAAW #168 as more of a prototype, rather than a true first appearance.

 

And of course, there's all the circumstantial evidence. In late 1969, when it was becoming apparent that the Enemy Ace wasn't driving sales, Joe Kubert needed a new character concept to put in Star Spangled War. I think that he took the story from OAAW #168 as a jumping off point and ran with it... and it mutated into the Unknown Soldier character that we all know and love.

 

I've often contended that 'First Appearances' of characters are often some of their worst appearances... it takes a few appearances before they start showing some nuance and subtlety in their character menus.

 

If I were to choose another great war character from the Bronze Age, I would actually choose the Destroyer USS Stevens!! Something about that boat.. it was central to so many great stories.

 

Shep

 

 

 

 

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Karma23

Karma23

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Posted (edited)
It's an interesting case... but I see the appearance in OAAW #168 as more of a prototype, rather than a true first appearance.

 

And of course, there's all the circumstantial evidence. In late 1969, when it was becoming apparent that the Enemy Ace wasn't driving sales, Joe Kubert needed a new character concept to put in Star Spangled War. I think that he took the story from OAAW #168 as a jumping off point and ran with it... and it mutated into the Unknown Soldier character that we all know and love.

 

I've often contended that 'First Appearances' of characters are often some of their worst appearances... it takes a few appearances before they start showing some nuance and subtlety in their character menus.

 

If I were to choose another great war character from the Bronze Age, I would actually choose the Destroyer USS Stevens!! Something about that boat.. it was central to so many great stories.

 

Shep

 

 

 

No question Shep, The USS Stevens stories did, and still do, resonate with me out of all proportion with the number of pages produced.

 

Incidentally, here is a link that I just found about the Stevens, and Mr Glanzman including some really nice commissions!

Edited by Karma23
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bronze johnny

bronze johnny

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We hit this issue before. It's pretty clear that OOAW 168 is the first appearance of the Unknown Soldier. While some people might not like the Unknown Soldier as he appeared in OAAW #168, he was still referred to as the Unknown Soldier- a Silver Age creation. The Bronze Age gets credit for further defining the Unknown Soldier.

 

The Overstreet Price Guide is correct in labeling OAAW #168 as the Unknown Soldier's 1st app.

 

Remember the caption on the cover- "I knew the Unknown Soldier"

 

Finally, it was Joe Kubert's intent to create this character in OAAW #168. Read SSWS #157 abd see the connection.

 

bronzejohnny

 

 

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Jeffro.

Jeffro.

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I tend to agree with bronzejohnny. However...........

 

It wouldn't be the first time such a "first appearance" has been changed. For instance, both GI Combat 68 and OAAW 81 were once considered the first appearances of Sgt Rock.

 

The caveat is, things can change.

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thirdgreenham

thirdgreenham

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Yeah, I understand that the cover of OAAW #168 says "I knew the Unknown Soldier", but the character is absolutely nothing like the Unknown Soldier that we all know and love. Nothing. Sorry. Mind you, you are correct when you say that Overstreet calls OAAW #168 the first appearance of him.

 

Andy

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bigfiver69

bigfiver69

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Bronzejohnny, you make a strong case. But for me, The Unknown Soldier is first and foremost a Bronze Age character. OAAW #168 was a blip, and yes that story was reprinted in SSWS, but if memory serves, Kubert bookended the story with new panels to bring it into line with the 'new' Unknown Soldier's continuity.

 

It can be argued either way, I suppose.

 

As for Overstreet, I've never seen is as particularly authoritative on war comics matter.

 

Shep

 

 

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Karma23

Karma23

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I believe the concept may have begun with 168 but the actual character we are all familiar with began in SSWS 151, pure and simple.

I'd have to go back and look to be certain but wasn't the character in 168 interred in the Tomb Of The Unknowns at the end of the story?

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bronze johnny

bronze johnny

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How can we distinguish a character that is by his very nature "unknown." You are saying that the character is different, yet, how can you draw that conclusion if we don't know who the Unknown Soldier is?

 

Look, Kubert himself is on record as saying that the Unknown Soldier in OAAW #168 is what he originally wanted- the Unknown Soldier. Now, if you want to disagree with me, that's fine. But if you want to disagree with the character's creator because you just think the OAAW #168 Unknown Soldier (or unknown character) is different from the SSWS #151 Unknown Soldier (who is also an unknown character), that's your opinion. I'll side with Kubert and Comic Book History. The guys at Overstreet originally had SSWS #151 as the Unknown Soldier's 1st app. up until several years ago, but they corrected this.

 

I'm sorry some of you guys don't want to accept this (I initally felt the same way).

 

Again, I'll say that SSWS #151 begins the Bronze Age's attempt to further define this unknown character (remember, the amazing thing about the Unknown Soldier is that he is unlike any other comic book character because we can never know his identity-- for once we discover who he is, then he is no longer the Unknown Soldier).

 

And there was only one Unknown Soldier- the one that Sgt. Rock knew as stated on the cover of OAAW #168- the 1st. app. of THE Unknown Soldier!

 

bronzejohnny

 

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thirdgreenham

thirdgreenham

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How can we distinguish a character that is by his very nature "unknown." You are saying that the character is different, yet, how can you draw that conclusion if we don't know who the Unknown Soldier is?

 

Look, Kubert himself is on record as saying that the Unknown Soldier in OAAW #168 is what he originally wanted- the Unknown Soldier. Now, if you want to disagree with me, that's fine. But if you want to disagree with the character's creator because you just think the OAAW #168 Unknown Soldier (or unknown character) is different from the SSWS #151 Unknown Soldier (who is also an unknown character), that's your opinion. I'll side with Kubert and Comic Book History. The guys at Overstreet originally had SSWS #151 as the Unknown Soldier's 1st app. up until several years ago, but they corrected this.

 

I'm sorry some of you guys don't want to accept this (I initally felt the same way).

 

Again, I'll say that SSWS #151 begins the Bronze Age's attempt to further define this unknown character (remember, the amazing thing about the Unknown Soldier is that he is unlike any other comic book character because we can never know his identity-- for once we discover who he is, then he is no longer the Unknown Soldier).

 

And there was only one Unknown Soldier- the one that Sgt. Rock knew as stated on the cover of OAAW #168- the 1st. app. of THE Unknown Soldier!

 

bronzejohnny

 

as you wish :foryou:

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bigfiver69

bigfiver69

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What I love about these boards are the passionate and logical arguments put forward. Bronzejohnny, you make some excellent points. But for me, The Unknown Soldier as we know him is solid bronze.

 

Makes you realize, though, how few new war characters were created in the bronze age. I can really only think of a few...

 

- Ulysses S. Hazard aka Gravedigger.

- The Viking Commando

- Unit 3

- Control at OSS

- Ludwig, Fritz and Hugo in Blitzkrieg

- The Mercenaries

- Kana the Ninja

- G.I. Robot

- The Creatiure Commandos

 

Overall, a pretty thin group... if these were created between 1970 and 1985, just compare that list to the list of war characters created between 1955 and1969...

 

- Sgt. Rock and Easy

- The Haunted Tank

- Gunner And Sarge

- Johnny Cloud

- Capt. Storm

- Mlle. Marie

- Tank Killer

- The Iron Major

- Enemy Ace

- Little Al and Charlie Cigar

- Lt. Hunter and the Hellcats

- Lt. Larry Rock

 

Sure beats the tar our of the bronze age list!! I think it's a testament to two facts... The bronze age really suffered from the lack of new character development of the kind that Bob Kanigher oversaw during the silver age; and perhaps we shouldn't immediately attribute the demise of the war genre to changing readership patterns... perhaps we should attribute to a dearth of exciting new characters and ideas in the war books in the 1970s and 1980s.

 

Shep

 

 

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bronze johnny

bronze johnny

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Shep,

 

I agree with you about the Unknown Soldier being a Bronze Age character-perhaps the BA's greatest war character. But that will never nullify the fact that OAAW #168 was his 1st app.

 

I also see the Unknown Soldier through BA "lenses." What makes SSWS #151 such a special book in BA History and the History of the American Comic Bool is that it begins the process of further defining this amazing mysterious character to the reader. A character we can never truly know.

 

Your points about BA War creations and the lack of them is noteworthy.

 

While we might disagree about some things, you and the other war threaders here make this "infinite" journey through the BA fun and enlightening.

 

John

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