Okay boys and girls, we get to see how "dead" Marvel Comics 1 is

[N e r V]

Well you would think he had some Intel on sales but I find it slightly surprising he could get it that quick since I always heard the lag time was much greater (like months).

 

I remember Goodman jumping the gun and cancelling a series like the Spectacular Spider-Man mag. to soon even though sales were good (I think this is the title Romita mentioned before). Getting good sales data in 2 weeks is pretty good since Goodman seemed incapable of getting information that quick later.

 

Again I'm not doubting the likely event since he probably wasn't that dumb to chance that large a print run without info. on those 80,000 copies but it does seem amazing to be able to get sales that quick.

 

I seem to remember no one noticed the impact Superman was having on Action Comics Sales until something like the forth issue.

[stock_rotation]

Regarding your question about the red hair...the Marvel Omnibus shows a Human Torch with red hair whereas Marvel 1s do not. The issue was that the hair might have been intended to be red. However, one of the threads you supplied had a comment about the Human Torch stories in the Oct and Nov editions and the Torch is blonde in both.

This is where I'm confused. The hair may have been intended to be red, but that change was not reflected in the actual printed material. That's demonstrable. The Torch has blonde hair in the November copies, except for one panel where it's red.

 

Is this discussion based solely on the red hair in the Omnibus printing 60+ years later? Because it seems fairly evident that the Omnibus coloring is based on the intent, and not reflective of the original printing.

[sfcityduck]

Well you would think he had some Intel on sales but I find it slightly surprising he could get it that quick since I always heard the lag time was much greater (like months).

 

I remember Goodman jumping the gun and cancelling a series like the Spectacular Spider-Man mag. to soon even though sales were good (I think this is the title Romita mentioned before). Getting good sales data in 2 weeks is pretty good since Goodman seemed incapable of getting information that quick later.

 

Again I'm not doubting the likely event since he probably wasn't that dumb to chance that large a print run without info. on those 80,000 copies but it does seem amazing to be able to get sales that quick.

 

I seem to remember no one noticed the impact Superman was having on Action Comics Sales until something like the forth issue.

 

One of the posts on the old threads referenced testimony from the suit by DC against the publisher of Wonderman. The testimony was that the publisher of Wonderman learned how popular Superman was, and was thus motivated to emulated Superman, because he visited the offices of distributors on a daily basis to get sales information about how books were doing retail. The speculation was that Goodman could easily have gotten instant sales data from a distributor just by picking up the phone.

[sfcityduck]

Thanks for finding those threads. I read through them and they are exhausting. The two camps of thought running neck and neck are that 1) there were two or more printings of Marvel 1 with the NOV overprints added to the 2nd printing by an additional printing plate and 2) there was only one printing and the NOV overprints were rubber stamped in to extend the shelf life of the book on the newsstands. I tend to agree with the 2nd scenario.

 

The rubber stamp theory doesn't work because of the indicia change.

 

It would have had to be an additional printing plate.

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

Thanks for finding those threads. I read through them and they are exhausting. The two camps of thought running neck and neck are that 1) there were two or more printings of Marvel 1 with the NOV overprints added to the 2nd printing by an additional printing plate and 2) there was only one printing and the NOV overprints were rubber stamped in to extend the shelf life of the book on the newsstands. I tend to agree with the 2nd scenario.

 

The rubber stamp theory doesn't work because of the indicia change.

 

It would have had to be an additional printing plate.

 

And honestly who would pay to stamp 800,000 books; that makes no sense even given a low prevailing wage back in the late thirties. Assuming two people processing ten books a minute (a stamper and a sorter) that's still about 66 man-weeks of work.

[stock_rotation]

The rubber stamp theory doesn't work because of the indicia change.

 

It would have had to be an additional printing plate.

EXCEPT: The distance between the word Nov and the black circle changes. Just a quick look at the Heritage archives shows at least 3 copies where Nov is almost sitting on top of the black circle. This is not something that could happen with a printing plate.

 

Look at the difference between the Denver and Larson copies, for example.

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

The rubber stamp theory doesn't work because of the indicia change.

 

It would have had to be an additional printing plate.

EXCEPT: The distance between the word Nov and the black circle changes. Just a quick look at the Heritage archives shows at least 3 copies where Nov is almost sitting on top of the black circle. This is not something that could happen with a printing plate.

 

Look at the difference between the Denver and Larson copies, for example.

 

 

 

The change in registration isn't evidence of a "rubber stamp." The black circle and "Nov." could have been (and most likely were) on a second black plate. That second plate clearly got loose a bit during the print run. Plates getting loose and moving apparently was a common problem with this printer because MC 1 is a book with notorious registration problems.

[stock_rotation]

I don't think there was a rubber stamp, either.

 

Plates do get loose during a print run, but when a plate goes out of registration, all of the print areas on that plate move in unison. There is absolutely no way that the spacing between the word Nov and the black circle changes if they are on the same plate. It is literally impossible for that to happen. Liken it to making a photocopy-- you can move the original on the glass, and the next copy will not match up to all the others, but all of the elements remain in the same relative position to one another.

 

My suspicion, and I don't think anyone has said this before, is that there was a second plate, but the circle wasn't on it. The circle was added to the original plate. The second plate had the Nov and the indicia fix. It's technically possible they were on the same plate, but I'd have to see the indicia on a shifted copy to know for sure.

[VintageComics]

March 2009 thread

 

This particular thread was by far the most informative discussion we've had on the topic. Great to reread it again.

[VintageComics]

Thanks for finding those threads. I read through them and they are exhausting. The two camps of thought running neck and neck are that 1) there were two or more printings of Marvel 1 with the NOV overprints added to the 2nd printing by an additional printing plate and 2) there was only one printing and the NOV overprints were rubber stamped in to extend the shelf life of the book on the newsstands. I tend to agree with the 2nd scenario.

 

The rubber stamp theory doesn't work because of the indicia change.

 

It would have had to be an additional printing plate.

 

And honestly who would pay to stamp 800,000 books; that makes no sense even given a low prevailing wage back in the late thirties. Assuming two people processing ten books a minute (a stamper and a sorter) that's still about 66 man-weeks of work.

 

It wasn't a hand stamp. Dice asserted that it was a stamp that was involved somewhere in the automated process.

 

So the covers would be stamped just as quickly as the entire process would have allowed.

 

There are also several other things to add to the stamp discussion.

 

1) There could have been a plate and a stamp (or whatever combination is necessary) to account for all the additional black markings (OCT circle, NOV stamp and interior indicia stamps. According to Dice, these could all have been added anywhere along the publication process (before the cover was finally saddle stitched to the interior and trimmed).

 

2) Remember that covers were printed in large sheets (of 8 if I'm not mistaken) and then trimmed down to single covers just before the bindery process.

 

3) There were other Timely books that also used a similar process - Timely's Mystic Comics #4 (1940) has multiple variations with the two most popular being July over stamped with a square and August stamped above it (two different variations exist - one with Silver and one with Black stamps).

 

I have yet to find a 'July copy'. Has anyone seen one without the block and August modications? If so, I can't remember?

 

Grand Comic Database entry on the topic

 

http://www.comics.org/issue/950/

 

Scans of two copies are in spoilers below.

 

Obviously, Goodman used the 'stamp' and date change tactic more than just one time and I feel this example could lead to more information about why.

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

My suspicion, and I don't think anyone has said this before, is that there was a second plate, but the circle wasn't on it. The circle was added to the original plate. The second plate had the Nov and the indicia fix. It's technically possible they were on the same plate, but I'd have to see the indicia on a shifted copy to know for sure.

 

There could have been more than one black plate (with the second one only creating a circle on the OCT cover and black lines on the indicia) as well as a rubber stamp somewhere in the process to create the NOV - because the NOV was obviously moving relative to the black circle over OCT.

 

My Mystic #4 example clearly shows Silver ink being used to make the same changes, so either a (5th) Silver plate was added or a rubber stamp somewhere along the printing process.

 

Now I'm wondering why Goodman changed the cover date on a 2nd book in the Timely family.

 

I'm sure if we had enough copies in hand of Marvel #1 and Mystery #4 to examine we could possibly start making definitive conclusions.

 

The problem is both are tough books (the Mystic #4 being the far less expensive one) and nobody is going to want to donate theirs to the cause and risk damage or loss.

 

Does anyone have a raw Mystic #4 so that they can take a shot of the indicia on the inside front cover and post it here to see if any changes were made on that book's incidia as well like they did on Marvel #1? I assume they would have done the same on the Mystic as they did on the Marvel.

 

Man, if we could get a few copies into the same room it sure would be fun to start comparing them.

[sfcityduck]

.

 

 

 

I do not see the "Nov." moving in relation to the black circle. In fact, they appear to be moving in unison.

 

I do see the "Nov." AND black circle moving relative to the "Oct." which it attempts to cover and the registration of other elements of the cover (such as the very out of register title logo).

 

 

 

 

[sfcityduck]

 

My Mystic #4 example clearly shows Silver ink being used to make the same changes, so either a (5th) Silver plate was added or a rubber stamp somewhere along the printing process.

 

 

I think that is very strong evidence of an additional fifth plate being used, especially given that's how they normally added metalic ink. That some were done with metalic ink and others in black may reflect that they were using up some excess ink for that fifth plate from an earlier print run of another product -- which would seem like a very Goodman thing to do (cheap cheap cheap).

[vaillant]

I think what's going on is someone felt the need to do the outline on the torch in both color and the black plate. These don't line up, which is why the torch looks so bad. They didn't try to do the outline of the other guy in color, just black, so the misregistration is there but not so obvious.

 

exactly

 

Printing colors were almost always CMYK, here you just have the Cyan plate which is off-register and in the guy is barely noticeable as the Cyan does not work in the inked outline.

[vaillant]

 

My Mystic #4 example clearly shows Silver ink being used to make the same changes, so either a (5th) Silver plate was added or a rubber stamp somewhere along the printing process.

 

 

I think that is very strong evidence of an additional fifth plate being used, especially given that's how they normally added metalic ink. That some were done with metalic ink and others in black may reflect that they were using up some excess ink for that fifth plate from an earlier print run of another product -- which would seem like a very Goodman thing to do (cheap cheap cheap).

They wouldn’t add a fifth plate if not needed (like in your example of a metallic ink, or a vivid spot color). Sometimes is done to have a richer black, here it seems they tried to have a different black by adding Cyan to the Torch's line art.

[VintageComics]

.

 

 

 

I do not see the "Nov." moving in relation to the black circle. In fact, they appear to be moving in unison.

 

I do see the "Nov." AND black circle moving relative to the "Oct." which it attempts to cover and the registration of other elements of the cover (such as the very out of register title logo).

 

Look at this picture where Aman grouped 6 different covers to show them.

 

Linky to the post by Aman

 

NOV. moves relative to the circle and the circle moves relative to the OCT.

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

 

My Mystic #4 example clearly shows Silver ink being used to make the same changes, so either a (5th) Silver plate was added or a rubber stamp somewhere along the printing process.

 

 

I think that is very strong evidence of an additional fifth plate being used, especially given that's how they normally added metalic ink. That some were done with metalic ink and others in black may reflect that they were using up some excess ink for that fifth plate from an earlier print run of another product -- which would seem like a very Goodman thing to do (cheap cheap cheap).

 

Adding a slug (or several) to make a black or silver square or the word 'August' would be just as easy as using a plate and if you are not using silver on the entire cover, there is less need for an entire plate.

 

DiceX (or someone else that has worked in publishing) would probably be able to answer this definitively.

 

Again, I wonder if the silver ink was used on the inside when it was used on the outside.

 

 

 

[stock_rotation]

I do not see the "Nov." moving in relation to the black circle. In fact, they appear to be moving in unison.

[Artboy99]

I do not see the "Nov." moving in relation to the black circle. In fact, they appear to be moving in unison.

 

The "NOV." is stamped on after the fact. No way is it printed, it is all over the place.

[Junkdrawer]

If the books were all printed, folded and bound and released in october and more books were released in Nov with the black "dot and nov", there would be no plate. The only method that could have been used is a letter press. You can not run bound printed matter through a sheet fed press. It is very possible that the dot to block out Oct was added first and then came the idea to add Nov via letter press. That would be a die and not a plate.