Okay boys and girls, we get to see how "dead" Marvel Comics 1 is

[VintageComics]

First, disregard trimming on individual books. I pulled 6 covers into photoshop, rotated every copy so the yellow in Marvel was straight, and then resized every cover so the logos were identical sizes. This gives us a baseline as to where the circle and the logo are positioned on the print

 

I am disregarding the trimming.

 

But relative to the red lines in the logo, the plate seems to be moving.

 

I'm not savvy enough to do it in Photostudio or whatever, but can someone overlay all of the black plates from the 6 covers to compare how the NOV/Circle stamps compare exactly to the other black lines on the covers?

 

Aman did this in the 2009 thread with 6 pictures side by side but it was too difficult to tell whether the Nov/Circle were moving relative to the black plate or not.

 

 

 

 

Anybody?

 

Second, The Larson is relatively positioned the same as the Pay copy, it's just that the black plate on the Larson copy is shifted down slightly. The spacing between Nov and the circle are the same.

 

Has the black plate (line artwork AND NOV/Circle) shifted down or just the NOV/Circle stamp (if it is actually a separate stamp) relative to the rest of the black line work?

 

That's what I'm trying to determine above

 

Last, and most important, don't use the white dot in Oct. as an indicator as to whether the black dot moves. What you're seeing when you see more or less of the white dot is the movement of the blue plate, which we already know moved around. There is no "white ink", the word is knocked-out of both the blue, magenta and black plates. Both the black and magenta image in that area is a light screen to transform the blue in that area from straight cyan to the darker purplish-blue, so unless you have a super-high res scan of the cover or you're looking at it in person under a loupe, you're not likely to be able to see the black or magenta screening in that area.

 

Gotcha!

[Silver Surfer]

Considering that there are so few examples left from a million copies printed it seems like a bit of a guessing game on how the printing process went down. It still shocks me that no one in the business could clear up these items but I guessing that people never really talked about this until the 70's? I wonder if Stan would know of people who worked the on the printing floor back in the day.

[VintageComics]

 

For example, this is Aman's picture of 6 covers from the 2009 thread.

 

It definitely looks like the NOV/Circle are moving differently from the other black lines in the cover illustration (so separate from the black plate used for the cover illustration).

 

There are times when the N in NOV is directly over the diagonal line to the right of the L and other times when the N in NOV is to the right of it.

 

 

 

[Crowzilla]

It definitely looks like the NOV/Circle are moving differently from the other black lines in the cover illustration (so separate from the black plate used for the cover illustration).

 

There are times when the N in NOV is directly over the diagonal line to the right of the L and other times when the N in NOV is to the right of it.

 

This would tend to support the theory that the Nov/Circle was a 5th plate or at least not part of the regular black plate.

[pemart1966]

Is it possible to remove the black ink fairly easily or is it just printing issues at play where some copies show more of "OCT" under the black dot than others?

 

I'm just wondering whether some kid's curiosity back then might have resulted in them using an eraser or finger nail to try and remove the black over print in order to find out what was under the black dot?

[VintageComics]

It definitely looks like the NOV/Circle are moving differently from the other black lines in the cover illustration (so separate from the black plate used for the cover illustration).

 

There are times when the N in NOV is directly over the diagonal line to the right of the L and other times when the N in NOV is to the right of it.

 

This would tend to support the theory that the Nov/Circle was a 5th plate or at least not part of the regular black plate.

 

Or a separate rubber stamp(s).

 

That's what I'm trying to determine.

 

[VintageComics]

Is it possible to remove the black ink fairly easily or is it just printing issues at play where some copies show more of "OCT" under the black dot than others?

 

I'm just wondering whether some kid's curiosity back then might have resulted in them using an eraser or finger nail to try and remove the black over print in order to find out what was under the black dot?

 

I think it would be like removing ink from a cover - you'd remove everything stuck under it until you got to bare paper fibers. That's how I seem to remember my old copy (which was raw).

[Jaydogrules]

The most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. Using a magnifying glass in an attempt to divine greater significance from minor printing irregularities on 75 year old books is ridiculous.

 

In this case , the most obvious explanation is that the book was reprinted, and that the "Oct" date copies are the first printing, and that the "Nov" copies, having a later publication date and a different indicia, whatever you want to call them, one thing they cannot be called are "first printings".

 

-J.

[pemart1966]

It definitely looks like the NOV/Circle are moving differently from the other black lines in the cover illustration (so separate from the black plate used for the cover illustration).

 

There are times when the N in NOV is directly over the diagonal line to the right of the L and other times when the N in NOV is to the right of it.

 

This would tend to support the theory that the Nov/Circle was a 5th plate or at least not part of the regular black plate. [/quote

 

It appears to me that the black circle is stationary over the circle in all 6 examples shown. It doesn't move off of the white of the circle. It appears to me that it's only the "NOV" that's moving around or am I not seeing things correctly?

[VintageComics]

The most obvious explanation is usually the correct one. .

 

That's exactly untrue.

 

But eventually the right explanation becomes the obvious one.

[VintageComics]

It appears to me that the black circle is stationary over the circle in all 6 examples shown. It doesn't move off of the white of the circle. It appears to me that it's only the "NOV" that's moving around or am I not seeing things correctly?

 

All 4 colors (CMYB) are moving relative to each other depending on how accurate the plates are positioned when they strike.

 

As stock_rotation noted above, there is no white plate, so the white 'OCT.' letters are just a product of the blue plate not putting down ink in the shape of OCT. to spell it out (showing the white paper underneath). If the OCT. is moving, it's because the blue plate was moving.

 

What is moving is the black Circle that covers the OCT.

 

It was postulated that there are two different sets of NOV/Circle movement.

 

1 with NOV/Circle close to each other

1 with NOV/Circle futher apart from each other

 

I'm trying to determine (by asking someone to superimpose the blacks on each other) whether in both of those sets there is a relationship between the black plate responsible for the black line art on the cover and the NOV/Circle or if they are moving independently of the line art.

 

That would be only to determine whether there was either a fifth plate used or a stamp assembly during production.

 

 

[rjpb]

It definitely looks like the NOV/Circle are moving differently from the other black lines in the cover illustration (so separate from the black plate used for the cover illustration).

 

There are times when the N in NOV is directly over the diagonal line to the right of the L and other times when the N in NOV is to the right of it.

 

This would tend to support the theory that the Nov/Circle was a 5th plate or at least not part of the regular black plate.

 

Or a separate rubber stamp(s).

 

That's what I'm trying to determine.

 

 

It would seem evident that the dot and Nov. date were not added to the black plate for a second complete run, but rather overlayed, perhaps separately, perhaps in two runs, onto existing covers. I seriously doubt they were hand stamped, the Nov. dates too consistent in placement over the dot, within the two variations, and consistently on a straight line. Combined with blacking out and adding new info to the interior cove indicia, would indicate this all happened after the cover run was initially printed, but before it was entirely cut and collated.

[stock_rotation]

I just made an animated GIF of my examples. I think this is what you're looking for:

 

 

As I said earlier, the Larson's black plate is off compared to the others. But the rest are remarkably consistent, considering 1) I'm working off scans, and 2) I'm doing this by eye.

 

I'm going to do the same to Aman's example, except I also have to standardize his examples.

[VintageComics]

It definitely looks like the NOV/Circle are moving differently from the other black lines in the cover illustration (so separate from the black plate used for the cover illustration).

 

There are times when the N in NOV is directly over the diagonal line to the right of the L and other times when the N in NOV is to the right of it.

 

This would tend to support the theory that the Nov/Circle was a 5th plate or at least not part of the regular black plate.

 

Or a separate rubber stamp(s).

 

That's what I'm trying to determine.

 

 

It would seem evident that the dot and Nov. date were not added to the black plate for a second complete run, but rather overlayed, perhaps separately, perhaps in two runs, onto existing covers. I seriously doubt they were hand stamped, the Nov. dates too consistent in placement over the dot, within the two variations, and consistently on a straight line. Combined with blacking out and adding new info to the interior cove indicia, would indicate this all happened after the cover run was initially printed, but before it was entirely cut and collated.

 

I agree.

 

Although we seem to be covering the same ground more than once.

 

I don't think anyone believes they hand stamped 100,000's of covers. They were obviously done on the production line using rubber stamps / plates or slugs (whatever you want to call them) and I agree, before they were cut and collated.

 

The question is were they done with the black plates, or a 5th black plate or stamp combination.

 

That's what I'm trying to find out by overlaying all the blacks on top of each other.

[stock_rotation]

Here's Aman's images. I used the position of the yellow L as my baseline.

 

 

I would take the movement on these with a grain of salt, as I'm trying to line up low-resolution .gif files. Again, despite that, they're pretty consistent.

[Primetime]

This is turning out to be some high powered analysis. All adding to the mystique and coolness of Marvel 1

[cousin itt]

What the animated gif seems to be showing is that, while the "NOV" does move, it seems to have only two positions. In other words, its movements don't look like random sliding or misregistration, but like there were just two different plates with the "NOV" on it, or the NOV was moved once during printing.

[VintageComics]

What the animated gif seems to be showing is that, while the "NOV" does move, it seems to have only two positions. In other words, its movements don't look like random sliding or misregistration, but like there were just two different plates with the "NOV" on it, or the NOV was moved once during printing.

 

That's what Crowzilla said earlier.

 

What I was trying to do is find out whether it actually has two positions or more than two.

 

And whether there is actually consistency within each of the two sets of NOV/Circles or not.

 

The gif, while appreciated and is illustrating it in animated fashion moves a little too quickly for precise analysis.

 

That's why I was hoping someone could superimpose the six images over each other (or the 3 low ones and 3 high ones separately) in some way, with only the black plate art showing AND using the black line art as an anchor to see how the NOV/Circle moved relative to the black line art.

 

If I can figure out how to do it I will. Just thought someone may have more experience in Photoshop and could whip it off.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

What the animated gif seems to be showing is that, while the "NOV" does move, it seems to have only two positions. In other words, its movements don't look like random sliding or misregistration, but like there were just two different plates with the "NOV" on it, or the NOV was moved once during printing.

 

Yup.

 

Most likely the plate either slipped slightly during the second printing or someone adjusted it.

 

-J.

[Ameri]

The indicia black stripe moves too. The stripe in the 2nd example is to the right of the word "Vol." and does not cover the word "Published." The 3rd example is dead on where it should be. Oddly, the 2nd example also shows a separation in the middle of the text (P..........ublications).