the blob Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 http://www.ebay.com/gds/Strategy-Buy-The-Unknown-1-100-Amazing-Spider-Man-700-Variant-/10000000205306513/g.html So this was on a page in ebay, I guess touting newsstand versions. Quoting Milehigh chuck, of course.. It gives the impression that nowadays, for every 100 copies of a book, only 1 is a newsstand version. Chuck is quoted, comparing the newsies to 1:100 variants... I'm finding this hard to grasp because how is there any money to be made printing 250 copies of a newsstand version of a book that has a 25000 copy print-run? Or is it a little deceptive in that newsstand is 1% of the MARKET, which includes many many many books that have no newsstand versions, (does archie even differentiate?) thus, maybe, those books that do have a newsstand version, it is more like 5-10% (including returns I suppose). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastballspecial Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 10% sounds reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bababooey Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 For Marvel I would estimate it at less than 5% before they stopped newsstand distribution, there does seem to be an effort to get these recognized as much rarer than the direct but there's always a hindsight factor where someone points out they zigged while the rest of us zagged and then tries to create the perception of value. I admit to having a few, some on purpose others by accident - the ASM v2 #30 & a couple 36's, which I would think were at least 10% of the run with a better than average survival rate (they were both tough issues immediately in the direct market so people did seek them out) and the Deadpool appearance in 611. Once they started identifying them as direct/newsstand in the UPC I lost interest (and those are probably the rarest ones) The point that shouldn't be lost in this is that ASM completionists are They do differentiate Archie newsstand copies but like some other books targeting kids/younger readers I always wonder if the percentages are different for those books; for example the BA 12/Harley Quinn newsstand seems to go for more and seems less available...is that just due to scarcity or are wise guys holding back on the newsstand copies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 For Marvel I would estimate it at less than 5% before they stopped newsstand distribution, there does seem to be an effort to get these recognized as much rarer than the direct but there's always a hindsight factor where someone points out they zigged while the rest of us zagged and then tries to create the perception of value. I admit to having a few, some on purpose others by accident - the ASM v2 #30 & a couple 36's, which I would think were at least 10% of the run with a better than average survival rate (they were both tough issues immediately in the direct market so people did seek them out) and the Deadpool appearance in 611. Once they started identifying them as direct/newsstand in the UPC I lost interest (and those are probably the rarest ones) The point that shouldn't be lost in this is that ASM completionists are They do differentiate Archie newsstand copies but like some other books targeting kids/younger readers I always wonder if the percentages are different for those books; for example the BA 12/Harley Quinn newsstand seems to go for more and seems less available...is that just due to scarcity or are wise guys holding back on the newsstand copies? Less than 5% is unlikely. I highly doubt it got anywhere near that low before they quit making and distributing newsstand copies. For ASM (v.2) 22-33, the average distribution by Diamond in N.A. was 60,748 (using the estimated numbers from Comichron). The average total distribution for those issues was 114,157 (number from SoO in issue 37). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 http://www.ebay.com/gds/Strategy-Buy-The-Unknown-1-100-Amazing-Spider-Man-700-Variant-/10000000205306513/g.html So this was on a page in ebay, I guess touting newsstand versions. Quoting Milehigh chuck, of course.. It gives the impression that nowadays, for every 100 copies of a book, only 1 is a newsstand version. Chuck is quoted, comparing the newsies to 1:100 variants... I'm finding this hard to grasp because how is there any money to be made printing 250 copies of a newsstand version of a book that has a 25000 copy print-run? Or is it a little deceptive in that newsstand is 1% of the MARKET, which includes many many many books that have no newsstand versions, (does archie even differentiate?) thus, maybe, those books that do have a newsstand version, it is more like 5-10% (including returns I suppose). What a huge load of . This solarcomic guy (with "help" from Chuck R.) actually manages to make Jaydogrules and his incentive/ratio variant estimates look reasonable. That's quite the feat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bababooey Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 For Marvel I would estimate it at less than 5% before they stopped newsstand distribution, there does seem to be an effort to get these recognized as much rarer than the direct but there's always a hindsight factor where someone points out they zigged while the rest of us zagged and then tries to create the perception of value. I admit to having a few, some on purpose others by accident - the ASM v2 #30 & a couple 36's, which I would think were at least 10% of the run with a better than average survival rate (they were both tough issues immediately in the direct market so people did seek them out) and the Deadpool appearance in 611. Once they started identifying them as direct/newsstand in the UPC I lost interest (and those are probably the rarest ones) The point that shouldn't be lost in this is that ASM completionists are They do differentiate Archie newsstand copies but like some other books targeting kids/younger readers I always wonder if the percentages are different for those books; for example the BA 12/Harley Quinn newsstand seems to go for more and seems less available...is that just due to scarcity or are wise guys holding back on the newsstand copies? Less than 5% is unlikely. I highly doubt it got anywhere near that low before they quit making and distributing newsstand copies. For ASM (v.2) 22-33, the average distribution by Diamond in N.A. was 60,748 (using the estimated numbers from Comichron). The average total distribution for those issues was 114,157 (number from SoO in issue 37). ASM sales through Diamond almost doubled during the time that you are choosing to compare the SoO to direct market numbers. The SoO you're referring to was filed Oct 1, 2001 so likely issue 35 or 34 has the "nearest to # of 112,000" & those are both in the 90K range...so my 10% guesstimate for that era isn't that far off. Using my math Dec01: ASM #479 (38) = 95,300...#06 for the month Nov01: ASM #478 (37) = 93,500...#05 for the month Oct01: ASM #477 (36) = 92,800...#07 for the month Sep01: ASM #476 (35) = 90,000...#06 for the month Aug01: ASM #475 (34) = 90,500...#06 for the month Jul01: ASM #474 (33) = 89,800...#07 for the month Jun01: ASM #473 (32) = 82,300...#08 for the month May01: ASM #472 (31) = 73,700...#08 for the month Apr01: ASM #471 (30) = 77,300...#05 for the month Mar01: ASM #470 (29) = 48,800...#16 for the month Feb01: ASM #469 (28) = 48,600...#16 for the month Jan01: ASM #468 (27) = 49,200...#17 for the month Dec00: ASM #467 (26) = 49,500...#16 for the month Nov00: ASM #466 (25) Foil = 45,400...#24 for the month Nov00: ASM #466 (25) Reg = 14,900...#142 for the month Oct00: ASM #465 (24) = 50,200...#14 for the month Sep00: ASM #464 (23) = 49,300...#18 for the month Aug00: ASM #463 (22) = 49,900...#13 for the month Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 For Marvel I would estimate it at less than 5% before they stopped newsstand distribution, there does seem to be an effort to get these recognized as much rarer than the direct but there's always a hindsight factor where someone points out they zigged while the rest of us zagged and then tries to create the perception of value. I admit to having a few, some on purpose others by accident - the ASM v2 #30 & a couple 36's, which I would think were at least 10% of the run with a better than average survival rate (they were both tough issues immediately in the direct market so people did seek them out) and the Deadpool appearance in 611. Once they started identifying them as direct/newsstand in the UPC I lost interest (and those are probably the rarest ones) The point that shouldn't be lost in this is that ASM completionists are They do differentiate Archie newsstand copies but like some other books targeting kids/younger readers I always wonder if the percentages are different for those books; for example the BA 12/Harley Quinn newsstand seems to go for more and seems less available...is that just due to scarcity or are wise guys holding back on the newsstand copies? When I got back into collecting: I read up on it a little bit and "heard" that say ASM 300 with the spiderman on the cover in the box went for more....than "without" it, I didn't really notice if that was true, I guess actually I noticed the opposite... But my point being that I thought it was true across the board for that era, such as xmen 266 I thought it would be cheaper to by a UPC...so I bought etc BA 12, NM98, all UPC Are you saying I'm lucky? or that time will tell on that...? I know what you mean about "direct/newstand" but to be honest at the time I thought all "barcode" at that time was direct/newstand.....are you saying their not? also does anyone think that this goes back to say early 80's with some of the comics with the "black bar" diagonally through the barcode....? does this reflect newstand or direct/ns?? I have never heard the ratio's arguement..... I have always heard that the barcode editions were on the "newstand" in say: gas stations, grocery stores, etc. in late 80's and early 90's.....point being since they were on the "newstand" that they were "rare in high grade"..... I don''t think that it has caught on exponentionally...... Anyway....I'm just kinda talkin' to talk but since someone created this thread I want it to keep going for reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaboom Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 One thing to remember about newsstand copies, the unsold copies often had the front cover ripped off and sent back. My mom owned a store when I was a kid that had comics in them. After the covers were returned she would bring me home copies that had the covers ripped off as it was cheaper to send them back that way than the whole book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bababooey Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 When I said I lost interest when "they started identifying "direct/newsstand" in the UPC" I just didn't like it when they went to spelling it out in words within the UPC box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 When I said I lost interest when "they started identifying "direct/newsstand" in the UPC" I just didn't like it when they went to spelling it out in words within the UPC box. Thats cool I never thought too much about as a kid, I noticed the difference and asked LCS owners but never got a definitve answer....I wonder if it was really known at the time I also have a bunch of Superman/Reign of Superman/Death of Superman....with different words in the boxes.....I know there is a thread about that somewhere, I should get the low down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valiantman Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 What's more likely is that Mile High Comics is only able to re-stock one newsstand for every 100 direct editions from 2000-present, since they tend to buy large collections with lots of duplicates. Unsold former retailer inventory at bulk weight pricing on books from the past 20 years are rarely newsstand. The newsstand topic has been discussed a few times through the years on the board. Books like Amazing Spider-man #300 tend to be about 12-to-1 direct-vs-newsstand available on Ebay. The newsstand grades for ASM 300 generally average 1.0 lower than the direct grades, for what is CGC graded and available for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 What's more likely is that Mile High Comics is only able to re-stock one newsstand for every 100 direct editions from 2000-present, since they tend to buy large collections with lots of duplicates. Unsold former retailer inventory at bulk weight pricing on books from the past 20 years are rarely newsstand. The newsstand topic has been discussed a few times through the years on the board. Books like Amazing Spider-man #300 tend to be about 12-to-1 direct-vs-newsstand available on Ebay. The newsstand grades for ASM 300 generally average 1.0 lower than the direct grades, for what is CGC graded and available for sale. So take ASM 300 for example: Spiderman in the box is a direct edition Barcode is newstand later they would both have a bar code but one would say direct meaning direct and one would say nothing and that would be the newstand edition Do I have that right? JcomicJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valiantman Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 What's more likely is that Mile High Comics is only able to re-stock one newsstand for every 100 direct editions from 2000-present, since they tend to buy large collections with lots of duplicates. Unsold former retailer inventory at bulk weight pricing on books from the past 20 years are rarely newsstand. The newsstand topic has been discussed a few times through the years on the board. Books like Amazing Spider-man #300 tend to be about 12-to-1 direct-vs-newsstand available on Ebay. The newsstand grades for ASM 300 generally average 1.0 lower than the direct grades, for what is CGC graded and available for sale. So take ASM 300 for example: Spiderman in the box is a direct edition Barcode is newstand later they would both have a bar code but one would say direct meaning direct and one would say nothing and that would be the newstand edition Do I have that right? 1980s direct editions either had a line through the barcode or they replaced the barcode with words/art. Some 1990s barcodes say "Newsstand Edition" or "Newsstand Sales" but some say nothing. Direct Editions in the 1990s started saying "Direct Edition" or "Direct Sales" in the box with the barcode, but some don't. (Comic shops started using barcode scanners at the register.) Are you all ready for the secret of newsstand identification? Barcodes are two sections of lines. The wide first section (twelve numbers) and the little second section. The second section of the barcode is always skinny for newsstands (two numbers). The second section of the barcode is five numbers for direct editions. Direct: Newsstand: Now, start looking at those tiny pictures on Ebay... and see what you can find. Corona smith 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) What's more likely is that Mile High Comics is only able to re-stock one newsstand for every 100 direct editions from 2000-present, since they tend to buy large collections with lots of duplicates. Unsold former retailer inventory at bulk weight pricing on books from the past 20 years are rarely newsstand. The newsstand topic has been discussed a few times through the years on the board. Books like Amazing Spider-man #300 tend to be about 12-to-1 direct-vs-newsstand available on Ebay. The newsstand grades for ASM 300 generally average 1.0 lower than the direct grades, for what is CGC graded and available for sale. So take ASM 300 for example: Spiderman in the box is a direct edition Barcode is newstand later they would both have a bar code but one would say direct meaning direct and one would say nothing and that would be the newstand edition Do I have that right? 1980s direct editions either had a line through the barcode or they replaced the barcode with words/art. Some 1990s barcodes say "Newsstand Edition" or "Newsstand Sales" but some say nothing. Direct Editions in the 1990s started saying "Direct Edition" or "Direct Sales" in the box with the barcode, but some don't. (Comic shops started using barcode scanners at the register.) Are you all ready for the secret of newsstand identification? Barcodes are two sections of lines. The wide first section (twelve numbers) and the little second section. The second section of the barcode is always skinny for newsstands (two numbers). The second section of the barcode is five numbers for direct editions. Direct: Newsstand: Now, start looking at those tiny pictures on Ebay... and see what you can find. Thanks for the clarification and I hate to pile on here but: I have an Iron Fist 14 and a Xmen 101 that fits that description but that was in '77 & '76 are these the same as newstands since they don't have the bar/line diagonally?? Probably so but I didn't know if it was an decade thing or if all comics in the 70's were newstands?? I was born in 81 so it is a little before my time. Thanks for the feedback so far I find it very helpful EDIT: I ask this question because you have clarified 80's 90's and seems the 00's to '16 just curious about the BA Edited November 3, 2016 by ADAMANTIUM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 It's weird most of the slabs that I thought I overpayed for (after checking) were newstands BA12 NM98 UXM266 now that I know about the 2 digit skinny bars all the ones I got a "steal" deal were direct sales except ASM 300 While I personally "like to collect" the newstands it's just personal preference....it's not on the CGC label I want it in writing haha that newstands are rarer in high grade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ygogolak Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Thanks for the clarification and I hate to pile on here but: I have an Iron Fist 14 and a Xmen 101 that fits that description but that was in '77 & '76 are these the same as newstands since they don't have the bar/line diagonally?? Probably so but I didn't know if it was an decade thing or if all comics in the 70's were newstands?? I was born in 81 so it is a little before my time. Thanks for the feedback so far I find it very helpful EDIT: I ask this question because you have clarified 80's 90's and seems the 00's to '16 just curious about the BA http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9244844&fpart=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAMANTIUM Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazyboy Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 For Marvel I would estimate it at less than 5% before they stopped newsstand distribution, there does seem to be an effort to get these recognized as much rarer than the direct but there's always a hindsight factor where someone points out they zigged while the rest of us zagged and then tries to create the perception of value. I admit to having a few, some on purpose others by accident - the ASM v2 #30 & a couple 36's, which I would think were at least 10% of the run with a better than average survival rate (they were both tough issues immediately in the direct market so people did seek them out) and the Deadpool appearance in 611. Once they started identifying them as direct/newsstand in the UPC I lost interest (and those are probably the rarest ones) The point that shouldn't be lost in this is that ASM completionists are They do differentiate Archie newsstand copies but like some other books targeting kids/younger readers I always wonder if the percentages are different for those books; for example the BA 12/Harley Quinn newsstand seems to go for more and seems less available...is that just due to scarcity or are wise guys holding back on the newsstand copies? Less than 5% is unlikely. I highly doubt it got anywhere near that low before they quit making and distributing newsstand copies. For ASM (v.2) 22-33, the average distribution by Diamond in N.A. was 60,748 (using the estimated numbers from Comichron). The average total distribution for those issues was 114,157 (number from SoO in issue 37). ASM sales through Diamond almost doubled during the time that you are choosing to compare the SoO to direct market numbers. Do you understand what "average" means? Also, Direct Market orders/printing will follow hype (like new creative teams) much more than printing of newsstand copies/distribution to newsstand outlets (newsstand sales may increase for an issue that is immediately hot/pricey/hard to find). In other words, in the short term, DM distribution may increase significantly while newsstand distribution remains more or less the same, creating an unusual distribution imbalance for a single issue or short run. The SoO you're referring to was filed Oct 1, 2001 so likely issue 35 or 34 has the "nearest to # I said 22-33 for a reason, being that those are the issues covered by the SoO. of 112,000" & those are both in the 90K range...so my 10% guesstimate for that era isn't that far off seemingly on one single, specific issue. Fixed, though I specified that your "less than 5% before they stopped" and not your "at least 10%" was unlikely. Still, I would be surprised by an average that was ever significantly less than 15%, and Chuck's estimates (5% by 2000, 2% by 2005, 1% by the end) are still 100% pure B.S. Okay, fine, let's look at the previous year (issues 10-21), which I assume counts as the same era. Diamond average distribution: 56,948. Total average distribution: 114,285. Average print run: 173,967. So you're saying that to sell an average of ~11,500 newsstand copies, they printed an average of over 70,000 newsstand copies? Marvel kept going with a ~16% newsstand sell-through? Of course, that also means that average overseas DM sales were around 35,000 or 60% of the N.A. DM, which is completely absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bababooey Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 For Marvel I would estimate it at less than 5% before they stopped newsstand distribution, there does seem to be an effort to get these recognized as much rarer than the direct but there's always a hindsight factor where someone points out they zigged while the rest of us zagged and then tries to create the perception of value. I admit to having a few, some on purpose others by accident - the ASM v2 #30 & a couple 36's, which I would think were at least 10% of the run with a better than average survival rate (they were both tough issues immediately in the direct market so people did seek them out) and the Deadpool appearance in 611. Once they started identifying them as direct/newsstand in the UPC I lost interest (and those are probably the rarest ones) The point that shouldn't be lost in this is that ASM completionists are They do differentiate Archie newsstand copies but like some other books targeting kids/younger readers I always wonder if the percentages are different for those books; for example the BA 12/Harley Quinn newsstand seems to go for more and seems less available...is that just due to scarcity or are wise guys holding back on the newsstand copies? Less than 5% is unlikely. I highly doubt it got anywhere near that low before they quit making and distributing newsstand copies. For ASM (v.2) 22-33, the average distribution by Diamond in N.A. was 60,748 (using the estimated numbers from Comichron). The average total distribution for those issues was 114,157 (number from SoO in issue 37). ASM sales through Diamond almost doubled during the time that you are choosing to compare the SoO to direct market numbers. Do you understand what "average" means? Also, Direct Market orders/printing will follow hype (like new creative teams) much more than printing of newsstand copies/distribution to newsstand outlets (newsstand sales may increase for an issue that is immediately hot/pricey/hard to find). In other words, in the short term, DM distribution may increase significantly while newsstand distribution remains more or less the same, creating an unusual distribution imbalance for a single issue or short run. The SoO you're referring to was filed Oct 1, 2001 so likely issue 35 or 34 has the "nearest to # I said 22-33 for a reason, being that those are the issues covered by the SoO. of 112,000" & those are both in the 90K range...so my 10% guesstimate for that era isn't that far off seemingly on one single, specific issue. Fixed, though I specified that your "less than 5% before they stopped" and not your "at least 10%" was unlikely. Still, I would be surprised by an average that was ever significantly less than 15%, and Chuck's estimates (5% by 2000, 2% by 2005, 1% by the end) are still 100% pure B.S. Okay, fine, let's look at the previous year (issues 10-21), which I assume counts as the same era. Diamond average distribution: 56,948. Total average distribution: 114,285. Average print run: 173,967. So you're saying that to sell an average of ~11,500 newsstand copies, they printed an average of over 70,000 newsstand copies? Marvel kept going with a ~16% newsstand sell-through? Of course, that also means that average overseas DM sales were around 35,000 or 60% of the N.A. DM, which is completely absurd. In my post I was fairly clear, my at least 10% estimate related to issues when the JMS/JRJR run started and Marvel didn't stop newsstand distribution until sometime during the beginning of the Superior run (after issues700) I'm not bothering to look at SoO's from earlier or later eras...I don't care enough about it to have an argument about it and I'm certainly not buying into Chuck R's numbers which seems to be where you want to put me. If you want to dispute my less than 5% estimate for the later era, then find numbers for the late 600's rather than looking to an earlier era so you can be right by proving Chuck R wrong....I didn't discuss any pre-JMS/JRJR books even though you are making a pretty good effort when starting off YOUR last paragraph "So you're saying...." I do understand 'averages' and the point about fandom (direct) reacting strongly to a creative change is relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bababooey Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 I skimmed through this guy's blog post and there seems to be some good and some bad sources quoted if anyone's interested. https://rarecomics.wordpress.com/why-are-newsstand-comics-worth-more/ Although I vaguely remember this guy might have had a blog post that focused on ASM newsstand numbers that was out of whack & mostly supported by Chuck's estimates and RMA posted on the blog, engaged the guy via email & the post got taken down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...